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Author Topic: Suggestion - Remove Crafting Costs for Changing Weapon and Armor Appearance  (Read 1060 times)

Death

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Not sure why this still exists. It offers nothing more than to be inconvienent to modify weapon and armor appearances when you have to pay alot of gold IG, with the exception of crafted gear. There are better appearance modification systems that exist for NWN that do not have this feature. It is needless, in my opinion.

Addendum: I just want to clarify that I think that this would be a quality of life change. There have been many cases, I am sure, when players on this server have gotten certain armours or weapon drops that they've lacked the coin to change.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:53:33 AM by Death »

Hathor

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I can see the logic for expensive gear having expensive costs associated.

Death

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There's really no benefit to having aesthetic changes be behind a paywall. It doesn't change the stats of the armour, and crafted armours can also cost upwards of thousands of gold, but they usually take a single gold piece or two IG to be changed. Should they also cost thousands of gold to change too, when a crafter wants 8k for your full plate?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:28:10 AM by Death »

DaloLorn

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The issue is compounded by the fact that some cosmetic changes are already trivial. Robe models can be changed for free, dyes cost up to 60gp for a full recolour (regardless of the item)... but if you want to so much as add a necklace to your outfit, you suddenly need to pay hundreds or thousands of gold for it.
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Hathor

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The issue is compounded by the fact that some cosmetic changes are already trivial. Robe models can be changed for free, dyes cost up to 60gp for a full recolour (regardless of the item)... but if you want to so much as add a necklace to your outfit, you suddenly need to pay hundreds or thousands of gold for it.

I agree, they could be evened out. Less cost overall, but no free robes.

DaloLorn

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That might be okay... depending on your definition of "less". :P
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McNastea

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The cost for modifying armor or weapons, imo, should either be removed or homogenized such that any piece always costs x amount for a given change
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MAB77

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The crafting cost is a deliberate gold sink, one of the few we have. The cost is tied to the attributes of the items. The logic being that it is harder to modify a strong and powerful magical item without ruining the magic. It is here to remain.

I seem to recall however that there was question of reducing the cost according to one's crafting level. A perk for those investing time in the crafts. I can't recall if this was ever implemented, but I'll follow up with that suggestion with the dev team.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 06:52:29 AM by MAB77 »
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McNastea

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Yep, figured as much.

It just seems like it functions less as a gold sink for anyone with gold to sink and more like a system preventing newer characters from tailoring their equipment how they'd like.
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MAB77

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Yep, figured as much.

It just seems like it functions less as a gold sink for anyone with gold to sink and more like a system preventing newer characters from tailoring their equipment how they'd like.

Though this is true only by ignoring the big picture. The fun part of being rich on this server is to use one's wealth to support and finance the less fortunate. This creates ties and roleplay opportunities. Lower levels are encouraged to seek for patrons that will help them out on many levels, including though not limited too, getting training, gaining in-game contacts, upgrading equipment and, obviously, absorbing item modification costs. Plenty of us out there that will be willing to help. That help may come with strings attached, but that's the point ultimately.
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McNastea

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Sure, assuming that's the kind of rp that's interesting to them or even makes sense for their character. The point stands regardless.

edit:

To clarify - not everyone wants a sugar daddy. Suggesting that being able to find one doesn't change the fact that the system only punishes those with less when a truly effective gold sink should be sinking gold from those who have a lot. I don't really think this is a good arguement for keeping things the way they are.

I don't necessarily think that it should cost 0 gold, either. Just that it should be toned down and perhaps everything even given a baseline.

I very much doubt any of that will ever happen though.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 07:36:29 AM by McNastea »
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DaloLorn

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Lower levels rarely reach out to people to absorb item modification costs, though. (Whether they reach out to get geared up is also something I question; I've seen people give items out unprompted, and I've occasionally been the recipient of such, but I've never seen them ask for items.)

The closest I've ever seen to this was when Pierre's equipment was converted into a Company of the Phoenix uniform (for a pittance, as Alix only had to convert some crafted or otherwise inexpensive gear, to the point that the dyes probably cost more than the crafting), or when I decided to spend a non-trivial portion of Gar's meagre funds to help tweak everyone's outfits into vaguely passing as Crimson Cavalier uniforms.

Patrons I don't see very often, either for myself or others. Friends, yes, but asking those to shell out a small fortune for something as unimportant as customisation feels like a good way to lose them.
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Khornite

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The crafting cost is a deliberate gold sink, one of the few we have. The cost is tied to the attributes of the items. The logic being that it is harder to modify a strong and powerful magical item without ruining the magic. It is here to remain.

I seem to recall however that there was question of reducing the cost according to one's crafting level. A perk for those investing time in the crafts. I can't recall if this was ever implemented, but I'll follow up with that suggestion with the dev team.

From an IC perspective though, it really doesn't make that much sense. You don't really go to a vendor or specialist for it, you just pay gold to a menu. The people it only impacts are the lowest level characters, by level 8 you can pretty much modify anything without much ache as you're using mostly player crafted gear by that point.
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Bad_Bud

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A side effect of the high costs is that it becomes easy to spot newer and lower level characters based on their default appearances and default-looking magical gear, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

As a player, though, I think it would be an effective and interesting gold sink if there were some form of crafting station, perhaps in the enchanting room at the university, that would allow the transfer of magical properties from an otherwise "uncraftable" magic loot item to an item crafted to look the way a player wants, likely costing upwards of many rare gems and diamonds for the process.

Ithalan

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How would that be any different than the current situation where expensive fees for cosmetic modifications only apply to people who use dropped loot or gear bought from NPC merchants, except adding the additional hassle of having to find an enchanter to do the conversion for you?

edit: What bothers me more than the prices being high is the impact of them being inconsistent across classes, due to crafted gear being the best available through the entire lifetime of some, and practically worthless to others. If it's supposed to be a gold sink, why should some classes be exempt?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 04:15:58 PM by Ithalan »

Hathor

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How would that be any different than the current situation where expensive fees for cosmetic modifications only apply to people who use dropped loot or gear bought from NPC merchants, except adding the additional hassle of having to find an enchanter to do the conversion for you?

edit: What bothers me more than the prices being high is the impact of them being inconsistent across classes, due to crafted gear being the best available through the entire lifetime of some, and practically worthless to others. If it's supposed to be a gold sink, why should some classes be exempt?

These are fair points and I agree with them.

I don't feel strongly about the matter in either direction, but it is a bit of a bummer that it is an inconsistent gold sink. I'd rather see consistent gold sinks for all classes.

Famous Seamus

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There are a lot of valid points being raised in this thread. Just a few (perhaps less valid) thoughts of my own.

1. I never considered the customization menu as a gold sink, but that does make sense and I can see the value in it. It makes me warm up a bit to the high gold costs on some items now that it's clear there's a server-wide economic reason for it.

2. That said, I don't see a lot of charity between characters in this specific area. I see a lot of mentoring, coaching, helping with combat, giving price breaks to newer characters, giving of gifts at appropriate times and to appropriate people. This makes sense and feels organic. However, I haven't seen a lot of direct patronage with gold outside of Port (where it makes sense). In fact, I thought that was implicitly but actively discouraged in Barovia by the Team because its widespread adoption would detract from the oppressive horror setting. I don't know that gold-gifting charity is something that can be counted on outside of Port.

3. While I can see the RP sense in creating a location where characters would have to go to change their equipment appearance, I'm not in favor of it. Within reason, it's sensible to think that many characters could carry a spare piece of clothing or two with them. (For instance, my character occasionally removes his tabard in favor a hauberk when he goes to Hazlan.) So there's RP/IC rationale for why characters would be able to customize or change clothes more or less anyplace. As long as it's not being used unreasonably, deliberately disruptively, or exploitatively, the current "everywhere and anywhere" system feels sensible enough.

4. However, if the decision is made to have customization available only at certain places, it would be really nice to see such a place added to the Drain. I don't play an "outcast" character, but it would be a huge help to those that do. It would also dovetail nicely with the underworld flavor. Why wouldn't the underworld have a place where characters could potentially disguise themselves? ;)

5. I agree with the notion of standardizing costs across classes if that's at all possible without a massive overhaul. It would be a nice touch, but I also recognize it could be a ton of work.

6. I'm in favor of keeping the cost to modify a robe at 0. In addition to being sensible under point 3, above, it's also a major saving grace for characters who lack the money to fully customize their gear. I "recently" acquired an item with a significant cost to modify all its parts, especially the torso. Thanks to the free robe option, I was able to make it look decent by focusing on the arms and legs without shelling out a ton of money. Granted, I have an experienced character, so it was no big deal, but imagine a level 5 getting some cool gear and being prevented from making it look decent due to the money issue. The free robe option gives them a stopgap until they're eventually able to pay for the modifications they want.

7. Thank you to all the devs and designers who have worked to make the models work and who keep the customization system running so robustly.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 06:02:27 PM by Famous Seamus »


DaloLorn

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Seamus raises a lot of good points. I see no reason for him to prefix his post with the notion that he doesn't. :P
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Hathor

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There are a lot of valid points being raised in this thread. Just a few (perhaps less valid) thoughts of my own.

1. I never considered the customization menu as a gold sink, but that does make sense and I can see the value in it. It makes me warm up a bit to the high gold costs on some items now that it's clear there's a server-wide economic reason for it.

2. That said, I don't see a lot of charity between characters in this specific area. I see a lot of mentoring, coaching, helping with combat, giving price breaks to newer characters, giving of gifts at appropriate times and to appropriate people. This makes sense and feels organic. However, I haven't seen a lot of direct patronage with gold outside of Port (where it makes sense). In fact, I thought that was implicitly but actively discouraged in Barovia by the Team because its widespread adoption would detract from the oppressive horror setting. I don't know that gold-gifting charity is something that can be counted on outside of Port.

3. While I can see the RP sense in creating a location where characters would have to go to change their equipment appearance, I'm not in favor of it. Within reason, it's sensible to think that many characters could carry a spare piece of clothing or two with them. (For instance, my character occasionally removes his tabard in favor a hauberk when he goes to Hazlan.) So there's RP/IC rationale for why characters would be able to customize or change clothes more or less anyplace. As long as it's not being used unreasonably, deliberately disruptively, or exploitatively, the current "everywhere and anywhere" system feels sensible enough.

4. However, if the decision is made to have customization available only at certain places, it would be really nice to see such a place added to the Drain. I don't play an "outcast" character, but it would be a huge help to those that do. It would also dovetail nicely with the underworld flavor. Why wouldn't the underworld have a place where characters could potentially disguise themselves? ;)

5. I agree with the notion of standardizing costs across classes if that's at all possible without a massive overhaul. It would be a nice touch, but I also recognize it could be a ton of work.

6. I'm in favor of keeping the cost to modify a robe at 0. In addition to being sensible under point 3, above, it's also a major saving grace for characters who lack the money to fully customize their gear. I "recently" acquired an item with a significant cost to modify all its parts, especially the torso. Thanks to the free robe option, I was able to make it look decent by focusing on the arms and legs without shelling out a ton of money. Granted, I have an experienced character, so it was no big deal, but imagine a level 5 getting some cool gear and being prevented from making it look decent due to the money issue. The free robe option gives them a stopgap until they're eventually able to pay for the modifications they want.

7. Thank you to all the devs and designers who have worked to make the models work and who keep the customization system running so robustly.

+1

Death

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I seem to recall however that there was question of reducing the cost according to one's crafting level. A perk for those investing time in the crafts. I can't recall if this was ever implemented, but I'll follow up with that suggestion with the dev team.

This seems like an interesting idea, something I could get behind depending on the execution.

I don't think restricting players /more/ in their ability to customize things by limiting /where/ they can customize their armour is a good idea as it was mentioned in the thread, because it would reduce quality of life and convenience I feel, but having an even ground of cost being reduced through certain crafting levels seems like an interesting idea to me, and a decent even ground.

It might even open up doors for more player interaction by players being able to offer tailoring services that are both RP and mechanical - players having purchased armours that are expensive to modify could approach a player able to modify their armour, pay them the required amount for the tailoring and maybe more (if the player/character so desired) and be able to change the appearance to the paying player's specifications. There would still be gold sink, and potential distribution of gold through practice of a craft skill in a useful and applicable way. This is simply a thought I had after reading through some of the thread and giving myself time to think over the ideas and discussion being shared.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2021, 08:24:26 PM by Death »

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I seem to recall however that there was question of reducing the cost according to one's crafting level. A perk for those investing time in the crafts. I can't recall if this was ever implemented, but I'll follow up with that suggestion with the dev team.

That's already in and has been for a year or two.

Death

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I seem to recall however that there was question of reducing the cost according to one's crafting level. A perk for those investing time in the crafts. I can't recall if this was ever implemented, but I'll follow up with that suggestion with the dev team.

That's already in and has been for a year or two.

How does this system work, might I ask? I don't think I've heard anything about it.

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How does this system work, might I ask? I don't think I've heard anything about it.

Exactly as described above. The more levels in the relevant craft, the lower the cost.

Thundron

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How does this system work, might I ask? I don't think I've heard anything about it.

Exactly as described above. The more levels in the relevant craft, the lower the cost.

crafting level in tailoring? leatherworking? smithing? or tailoring for cloth "armors" leather for light and smithing for heavy?


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I recall remodelling my juggernaut crown originally was pretty expensive, I need to retry this sometime with my 59 smithing..