A change to potion item using would be beneficial for RP and class diversity.

[Lightweaver]

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable.

Well shouldn't they be valuable? That's what I'm trying to say. There should be more emphasis on class abilities. Why are we watering down the value that each class brings with all these buff items?

I would go so far as to argue right now that UMD is the most valuable skill in the module.  Right next to it, Spot.  It doesn't need to be bolstered and that's the point that was being made.

Oh well for UMD, they can fix that by reducing the amount of scrolls a person can have with them, or limit scrolls in some way too.
I think all these self-buffing items need to be toned down to increase the value of each class. The need to rely on each other's strengths where we have weaknesses instead of solving everything with buff items.

These classes are all valuable even with potions in play. No one is choosing not to bring someone because they have potions. In the majority of instances, they're choosing not to do content because they don't have those classes available.

Mundane are more likely to become worth bringing because they can supplement their weaknesses with potions in a larger group. No one is sitting out the caster or the rogue, in my experience.

[Revenant]

Since we're not an arena server, artificial numerical limitations on the amount of held consumables would be very strange. Increasing the weight would be incredibly punitive to low strength builds, which wouldn't so much balance PvP as shift preferences elsewhere.

I have to say again, though, that PvP is scarcely ever decided by the person with the "most" potions in their pocket. None of the buffs are round duration, and once an engagement is started it's absolutely not going to come down to who has the most barkskin potions on them. Whether they have one potion of a buff or a hundred makes absolutely no difference - they absolutely don't need to be spending hours and hours self-producing potions.

[distilled1]

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable.

Well shouldn't they be valuable? That's what I'm trying to say. There should be more emphasis on class abilities. Why are we watering down the value that each class brings with all these buff items?

I would go so far as to argue right now that UMD is the most valuable skill in the module.  Right next to it, Spot.  It doesn't need to be bolstered and that's the point that was being made.

Oh well for UMD, they can fix that by reducing the amount of scrolls a person can have with them, or limit scrolls in some way too.
I think all these self-buffing items need to be toned down to increase the value of each class. The need to rely on each other's strengths where we have weaknesses instead of solving everything with buff items.

These classes are all valuable even with potions in play. No one is choosing not to bring someone because they have potions. In the majority of instances, they're choosing not to do content because they don't have those classes available.

Mundane are more likely to become worth bringing because they can supplement their weaknesses with potions in a larger group. No one is sitting out the caster or the rogue, in my experience.

But the mundane class without potions will be disregarded, and in PvP, the mundane class who doesn't have 100+ potions is guaranteed the loser against another mundane class who brought 100+ potions.

Since we're not an arena server, artificial numerical limitations on the amount of held consumables would be very strange. Increasing the weight would be incredibly punitive to low strength builds, which wouldn't so much balance PvP as shift preferences elsewhere.

I have to say again, though, that PvP is scarcely ever decided by the person with the "most" potions in their pocket. None of the buffs are round duration, and once an engagement is started it's absolutely not going to come down to who has the most barkskin potions on them. Whether they have one potion of a buff or a hundred makes absolutely no difference - they absolutely don't need to be spending hours and hours self-producing potions.

Why would it be strange to limit the amount of held consumables?
Also yeah the more healing potions the class has, the longer they'll survive in combat.

[Revenant]

Because suddenly reaching an arbitrary number of papers or bottles that can be held, ignoring the weight system, while you can carry swords, armors, herbs, etc etc etc up to your weight limit would be a jarring shift of design.

To your point of the mundane losing against the other mundane with 100+ potions... seriously, based on what? The only potion that you benefit from in multiples of when fighting another mundane is healing (you might think haste - usually a fight will be over by the time your first haste drops). And, as noted, the mainline Heal potion has been significantly nerfed recently. A mundane is going to outdamage someone sitting there and chain-chugging healing - it's just delay.

[distilled1]

A mundane is going to outdamage someone sitting there and chain-chugging healing - it's just delay.

Is that actually true?
The healing potions were nerfed to that point where chugging them one after another doesn't even help you in a 1 on 1 fight?
That seems hard to believe, but if that's true, then you're right, there is no need to limit them.

[Kiyosa]

But the mundane class without potions will be disregarded, and in PvP, the mundane class who doesn't have 100+ potions is guaranteed the loser against another mundane class who brought 100+ potions.

PvP on this server isn't based on consumables. I've been around for years and I'm yet to witness a PvP encounter where consumables determined the victor. What determines the victor around here is who can ambush the other, while they're prepared (warded to high heaven) and the target isn't. Most encounters are super quick for that reason. You stand still and down a potion, you're most definitely going to get murked a few seconds later. Potions aren't the answer to PvP. Far from.

[distilled1]

Oh okay well if that's how it is here, then I guess it's fine for PvP.
But what about all this easy access to 4th and 5th level spells diminishing the value of caster classes who are supposed to be the providers of those spells?

[Revenant]

Broadly speaking, yes. If you chug you give the opponent a free attack of opportunity and you take a round off of attacking, yourself. That's a huge loss of initiative.

Generally, I actually agree that we have a bit too much available in bottle form. On the other hand, reducing it makes things worse for people who play during off hours. As a few people have mentioned, even with the availability of 4th and 5th level spells nobody is going to pass up an actual caster in favor of a bottle.

[Kiyosa]

Oh okay well if that's how it is here, then I guess it's fine for PvP.
But what about all this easy access to 4th and 5th level spells diminishing the value of caster classes who are supposed to be the providers of those spells?

If you attack that, then you'll need to attack UMD, which is a lot more powerful. Which in turn would mean turning the module on its head.

[distilled1]

Oh okay well if that's how it is here, then I guess it's fine for PvP.
But what about all this easy access to 4th and 5th level spells diminishing the value of caster classes who are supposed to be the providers of those spells?

If you attack that, then you'll need to attack UMD, which is a lot more powerful. Which in turn would mean turning the module on its head.

Darn. I should have attacked UMD then.

[tom]

I've never in the entire time I've played on the server said to myself (or seen anyone say to themselves) "I have consumables that cost coin/time to buy/make, better not take this spellcaster with me". I've invested into UMD a lot on my rogue and I've never felt that the potions I can buy or make take away from the utility of UMD. I have a few other support type spellcasting characters that have never been turned down or told not to use my own spells because someone has potions, scrolls, or varnishes on them. A spellcaster throwing out a spell will always be better than my rogue UMDing a spell off a scroll, or a spell effect gained off a potion.

In PvP if someone has a reliable spellcaster that can give them help in the form of buffs or spells for PvP I'm 100% certain someone would take those buffs/spells over using their own consumable potions which take time to make or money to buy, or scrolls which take time to find or money to buy.

[EO]

UMD and potions help bridge the gap between mundane classes and casters. That’s very much intentional and not something we will change.

[Khornite]

Potions are fine right where they are, I think. They're an advantage open to everyone. If anything, the potent healing potions need to be buffed a tad to make them more worth while.

[BraveSirRobin]

Why is it a problem if a more capable and wealthy character can have 100+ potions, and another one cannot or does not? Wealth often factors in greatly to performance. Just like in real life.

[ChrisRanHimselfOver]

Oh okay well if that's how it is here, then I guess it's fine for PvP.
But what about all this easy access to 4th and 5th level spells diminishing the value of caster classes who are supposed to be the providers of those spells?

If you attack that, then you'll need to attack UMD, which is a lot more powerful. Which in turn would mean turning the module on its head.

Darn. I should have attacked UMD then.

It doesn't make sense to attack UMD anyway from your earlier argument. If your concern is with class features not being represented enough, UMD is a class feature that is only available to three base classes. And using it to buff is prohibitively expensive. To the point that any character seeking to use scrolls primarily for buffing would be out tens of thousands of gold easily every dungeon run at high levels. Not to mention it isn't guaranteed to work at early levels without skill investment and gear assisting.

[MAB77]

Oh okay well if that's how it is here, then I guess it's fine for PvP.
But what about all this easy access to 4th and 5th level spells diminishing the value of caster classes who are supposed to be the providers of those spells?

The presence of potions does not diminish in anyway the potency and value of the caster classes. They are quite useful, yes, but as was often stated, they quickly end up being of lower duration and effectiveness, as well as being easier to dispel than spells cast by actual mid to high level casters. Last I checked, parties still vastly prefer the presence of buffers in their midst over potions. Clearly the current diversity of potion is no competition to spellcasters. 

While I like the idea of increasing potions weight, it would ultimately just be a change that brings disgruntlement for no appreciable gain whatsoever to gameplay. It would also be quite illogical considering that, in D&D 3.5, a potion is 1 once of a liquid held in a small glass or ceramic vial. Vials weight 1/10 lb and 1 once of liquid, using water as your benchmark, would be 0.063 pound. Consider too that these are things you are supposed to be able to drink within a 6 second round. Your 1 pound potion would be more than 1.8 cups in volume. Not very practical to quaff that in a hurry while in battle. So at 0.1 lb per vial, our potions are very nearly at the weight they are supposed to be according to the rules.

To put a duration on potions is not feasible for various mechanical reasons. Already, the fact that they are stackable items causes problems because once 2 potions are stacked the game essentially consider them as a single item with 2 charges. It cannot distinguished between the two potions to verify when one is supposed to expire vs the other. I dare not even contemplate the resources drain should the system have to track the expiry of all potions in game. To put it simply, it would make the game unplayable.