A change to potion item using would be beneficial for RP and class diversity.

[distilled1]

Hi. I think that a change should be made to the potion items in order for class uniqueness to flourish, as well to not overwhelm or bore players.

This is a game mostly involving role-play and combat.
As it stands now, the combat is, in my opinion, swayed too far in favor of characters who spend more time crafting potions. It has become a situation where who ever has the most potions is likely going to win.
As players generally like to try to win the games they play, this can cause many players to look at a game like this, realize how much time is required to craft potions in order to be on a level playing field, realize how much time that will take away from them role-playing their class (the reason they likely joined the game in the first place), and quit the game for something more in line with the spirit of D&D class role-play.

I believe one or more of the following changes should be made:
A) Make potions weight a LOT more, so that characters can only carry about a dozen or so on them before becoming encumbered.
B) Have attacks of opportunity made against creatures who use potion items interrupt their potion drinking.
C) Put an expiration on potions.

Any other suggestions with regards to reducing the importance of spending time accumulating massive amounts of potions, in order to play competitively, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

**************
EDIT:
Alternatively, could there be NPCs placed around the world who are guaranteed to sell the same potions that are available to potion crafters but at a high price?

[Forte]

potions are fine. i believe these changes to be entirely unnecessary considering heal potions already got hit.

[distilled1]

There are many many potions other than healing potions that give huge advantages when in combat.
I would not say the potions are "fine" as is, unless this module is intending for competitive gameplay to be optimized in favor of who ever has the most potions, and therefore encouraging players who want to play competitively to spent countless hours grinding their herbalism craft, looking for herbs, and stocking up instead of simply jumping on to enjoy roleplay and combat.
I believe the module should cater more to players who don't necessarily have time to, or want to spend so much time crafting. Players who would rather jump right in to the action/roleplay.

[Hathor]

I don't have an opinion but I want to point out you can and are encouraged to purchase potions that other players have made.

[Revenant]

Of the full crafts, Herbalism is the one that comes closest to having a tolerable time investment (alchemy would beat it, but gathering reagents is trickier). As a result, herbalism has the most practitioners. As a result, it is typically not at all difficult to find someone willing to sell you potions or even turn reagents you've gathered into potions.

Competitively... I mean, the game isn't competitive. Dungeons can be done with a wide range of builds, including Fallen Clerics. PvP is a game of preparation - the only potion that matters what quantity you carry is Heal potions, and as Forte mentioned they recently took a nerf.

[distilled1]

Yeah it's true the players who would rather not waste their time crafting can just buy them but there isn't always someone around with them in stock.

As an alternative to the change suggestions I mentioned, I'd be very happy if there were simply dedicated potion selling NPCs who sold the same potions available through crafting at high prices. At least that way, someone who hates crafting can still have access to them and remain competitive if they want.

[McNastea]

I don't play a class that has magic at all and I rarely ever use them for dungeoning, granted I only dungeon with people who do have magic. But I wouldn't even want to dungeon using only my own potions to buff myself honestly. Duration isn't great, easy to dispel and while you make it sound simple if that's how you dungeon it's not terribly sustainable to rely on your own potions you've made solely for that imo.

Most of my potion use comes down to strength, invisibility and retreat potions used to carry large amounts of ore or whatever else I'm gathering for crafting.

[Revenant]

I guess I'm just having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to do that is so potion dependent, or giving you the perception that someone is getting one over on you by having more potions. Most dungeons are just completely impossible to do without access to (Greater) Magic Weapon and AC buffs (Shield/Shield of Faith, Mage Armor, etc). That means a warder is usually mandatory - at which point they can provide most spells that have potion equivalents, anyway. Using buff potions in dungeons is typically an act of emergency, not routine.

[Favee]

I believe potions are fine.  In a dungeoning sense, you're definitely not going to be attempting them with just potions and skipping a dedicated warder.  They just don't last long enough, and the cost is super prohibitive.

For pvp, it'll never be balanced on the module.  There are simply so many variables and consumables that can trivialize it.  Especially when there are items that can drop a decent level Evards Black Tentacles on someone.  One of those could knock out basically anyone who isn't immediately ready to deal with it.

I seriously doubt someone just chugging tens of thousands of gold worth of potions during a fight would survive very long against a prepared attack. 

As for remaining competitive, well you need to compete.  Sometimes that means grinding on crafts.  The crafts have the difficulty attached so that not everyone is a master at every craft.  It also brings about the roleplay of finding or learning about someone who is a master crafter. 

[distilled1]

I guess I'm just having a bit of difficulty understanding what you're trying to do that is so potion dependent, or giving you the perception that someone is getting one over on you by having more potions. Most dungeons are just completely impossible to do without access to (Greater) Magic Weapon and AC buffs (Shield/Shield of Faith, Mage Armor, etc). That means a warder is usually mandatory - at which point they can provide most spells that have potion equivalents, anyway. Using buff potions in dungeons is typically an act of emergency, not routine.

PvP

For pvp, it'll never be balanced on the module.  There are simply so many variables and consumables that can trivialize it.  Especially when there are items that can drop a decent level Evards Black Tentacles on someone.  One of those could knock out basically anyone who isn't immediately ready to deal with it.

I seriously doubt someone just chugging tens of thousands of gold worth of potions during a fight would survive very long against a prepared attack. 

As for remaining competitive, well you need to compete.  Sometimes that means grinding on crafts.  The crafts have the difficulty attached so that not everyone is a master at every craft.  It also brings about the roleplay of finding or learning about someone who is a master crafter. 

Yeah which is why I'm suggesting we fix it so that PvP is balanced.

[Abear]

Out of curiosity, what potions specifically are giving someone a huge edge in PvP?

[Favee]

Yeah which is why I'm suggesting we fix it so that PvP is balanced.

I don't mean to be blunt here, but this module will never be balanced well for PVP.  I'd go so far as to argue that NWN in general would be ridiculously hard to balance for PVP. 

On this module alone, you have IGMS spam hitting for 90-120 damage per cast, Evards Black Tentacles killing a player in two rounds or less, Acid Fog spam, Stealth mechanics and hide in plain sight effects. 

Characters with UMD using 25+ scrolls before initiating a fight.  Or even guns simply critting for 150+ damage.  Traps that have no save against 16d6 damage.

The amount of massive, sweeping changes that would be required to have any semblance of balanced PvP is simply too much.

Build variance and level differences, rules of engagement and how players tackle them. 

The best balance for PvP this server can ever have is the hope and culture of it being about story telling while progressing the roleplay, and not about winning.

[zDark Shadowz]

I think classes flourish with potions than without. It lets parties do things without the "correct composition". That's flourishing.

Removing potions in any manner is antithetical to your points, of which the suggestions listed do nothing for potions;

People would quickslot potions out of 60% to 80% bags, more people with haves and have nots. Strength characters are less affected.

Making changes to potions & all related spells to create an animation time is pointless, distance stops AoOs, having the AC can stop being hit (95% of the time, 97.5% with concealment), and if potion spam is the issue they'd drink a second potion in the same round and not be affected by an AoO check. I dont believe this is worth a devs time.

Expiration on potions, and herbs too otherwise people would make them to order, just removes potions entirely. So again, original point above, stopping classes from being able to do things without a "perfect" party support for their class doesn't make people flourish.

~~

There's no competition, what competition, as what stands? What are these vague allegations, where are the stats for the "swayed favour"? Is there a speedrun content leaderboard for dungeons I dont know about? If it's PvP related only, can't you use a myriad of strategies to negate potions already? My level 19 druid doesnt really use potions except to heal dying people when I'm out of healing, do I need to stop doing that? Should I offload all my potions into scrolls & consumables anyway so all your changes proposed just disadvantage everyone except for me with my stupidly versatile spellbook? Who hurt you?

[tylernwn]

I agree that potion making has gotten a little too strong, and out of control. There are too many effects that you can get from potions, to the point that pretty much every relevant buff a person would want can be acquired from a potion. In my opinion potion making should be scaled back; right now I think you can make potions up to 5th lvl effects, but in my opinion they should be scaled back to 3rd lvl effects only.

If you really want those 4th and 5th lvl effects, find a player who can give it to you. Its a multiplayer server after all.

[Duayne]

The only thing I disagree with around potions is the ability to carry around an entire apothecary, which isn't much/if any downside to characters that have str as a high/main stat. Offtopic - but this also applies to varnishes for me. Though, increasing the weight of either of these would be more of a detriment to the low carryweight people rather than the 20+ str people.

[Lightweaver]

Speaking for myself, I feel potions are in a good place to supplement the demand of certain classes while not replacing them outright. You're never going to refer to consumables instead of taking any given class with you - that would quickly become expensive and deplete a limited resource.

In PvP, if the stakes are high enough, people will find a way to gather the best tools. Balancing potions around the occasional skirmish punishes people who would benefit from them in PvE, who would otherwise not be able to do the content without the temporary benefits, for whatever reason.

Changing potions would empower casters further and would make more demand for characters to take UMD, thus limiting diversity. Really, I think they're a great thing that gives people more opportunity to play outside the ideal conditions.

[distilled1]

I think classes flourish with potions than without. It lets parties do things without the "correct composition". That's flourishing.

Removing potions in any manner is antithetical to your points, of which the suggestions listed do nothing for potions;

People would quickslot potions out of 60% to 80% bags, more people with haves and have nots. Strength characters are less affected.

Making changes to potions & all related spells to create an animation time is pointless, distance stops AoOs, having the AC can stop being hit (95% of the time, 97.5% with concealment), and if potion spam is the issue they'd drink a second potion in the same round and not be affected by an AoO check. I dont believe this is worth a devs time.

Expiration on potions, and herbs too otherwise people would make them to order, just removes potions entirely. So again, original point above, stopping classes from being able to do things without a "perfect" party support for their class doesn't make people flourish.

~~

There's no competition, what competition, as what stands? What are these vague allegations, where are the stats for the "swayed favour"? Is there a speedrun content leaderboard for dungeons I dont know about? If it's PvP related only, can't you use a myriad of strategies to negate potions already? My level 19 druid doesnt really use potions except to heal dying people when I'm out of healing, do I need to stop doing that? Should I offload all my potions into scrolls & consumables anyway so all your changes proposed just disadvantage everyone except for me with my stupidly versatile spellbook? Who hurt you?

Every class having such easy access to all kinds of potions that do all kinds of spells normally limited to spellcaster classes in D&D does indeed have an effect of homogenizing the classes to the point of all of them being able to have the same abilities. True seeing, haste, resistance to elements, etc, etc, etc.

I'm saying if the potions were made to be more limited in some fashion, the class diversity would be more emphasized and it wouldn't turn players away who don't want to spend so much time filling their inventory with potions. Yeah not every player would feel this is necessary, but some would in order to have a chance at surviving PvP encounters, knowing their enemy could very easily have their pockets full of potions, and therefore have a huge advantage over someone who didn't.

I agree that potion making has gotten a little too strong, and out of control. There are too many effects that you can get from potions, to the point that pretty much every relevant buff a person would want can be acquired from a potion. In my opinion potion making should be scaled back; right now I think you can make potions up to 5th lvl effects, but in my opinion they should be scaled back to 3rd lvl effects only.

If you really want those 4th and 5th lvl effects, find a player who can give it to you. Its a multiplayer server after all.

I love that idea.

The only thing I disagree with around potions is the ability to carry around an entire apothecary, which isn't much/if any downside to characters that have str as a high/main stat. Offtopic - but this also applies to varnishes for me. Though, increasing the weight of either of these would be more of a detriment to the low carryweight people rather than the 20+ str people.

Yes varnishes too. I wish there was just a flat limit on how many potions or varnishes or buffs in general that come from items which a person can carry on them at one time.
It would help attract players who are interested in PvP a lot.

[Dardonas]

I believe potions are fine.  In a dungeoning sense, you're definitely not going to be attempting them with just potions and skipping a dedicated warder.  They just don't last long enough, and the cost is super prohibitive.

For pvp, it'll never be balanced on the module.  There are simply so many variables and consumables that can trivialize it.  Especially when there are items that can drop a decent level Evards Black Tentacles on someone.  One of those could knock out basically anyone who isn't immediately ready to deal with it.

I seriously doubt someone just chugging tens of thousands of gold worth of potions during a fight would survive very long against a prepared attack. 

As for remaining competitive, well you need to compete.  Sometimes that means grinding on crafts.  The crafts have the difficulty attached so that not everyone is a master at every craft.  It also brings about the roleplay of finding or learning about someone who is a master crafter.

I agree with this.  I've never been in a position where I've had someone say "Oh, we don't need a wizard, I have potions."  When you get to content that is harder, you need a dedicated warder and that's that.

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable. 

[Stormy]

I am going to be honest. PvP isn't really a huge part of the server. To that end, we shouldn't balance the entire game around them. Dungeoning is much more prolific, and I've never seen anyone complain about potions. I myself was a full buff cleric, and whenever people told me they could use potions I was relieved, because it meant I could spend more spell slots on either enormous explosions, or mass heals to save everyone once their buffs ran out.

[distilled1]

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable.

Well shouldn't they be valuable? That's what I'm trying to say. There should be more emphasis on class abilities. Why are we watering down the value that each class brings with all these buff items?

[Dardonas]

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable.

Well shouldn't they be valuable? That's what I'm trying to say. There should be more emphasis on class abilities. Why are we watering down the value that each class brings with all these buff items?

I would go so far as to argue right now that UMD is the most valuable skill in the module.  Right next to it, Spot.  It doesn't need to be bolstered and that's the point that was being made.

[zDark Shadowz]

I see a lot of PvP arguments. If it's just PvP then just say for PvP don't put RP in the title.

[distilled1]

EDIT: As Vetala states, limiting potions or making them any more complicated than they are makes UMD multiclasses and UMD in general much more valuable.

Well shouldn't they be valuable? That's what I'm trying to say. There should be more emphasis on class abilities. Why are we watering down the value that each class brings with all these buff items?

I would go so far as to argue right now that UMD is the most valuable skill in the module.  Right next to it, Spot.  It doesn't need to be bolstered and that's the point that was being made.

Oh well for UMD, they can fix that by reducing the amount of scrolls a person can have with them, or limit scrolls in some way too.
I think all these self-buffing items need to be toned down to increase the value of each class. The need to rely on each other's strengths where we have weaknesses instead of solving everything with buff items.

It's like sitting down to play a game of pen and paper D&D and realizing no one needs you because they all have 100+ self buffing items, and can solo all the dungeons.

[Kiyosa]

I see a lot of PvP arguments. If it's just PvP then just say for PvP don't put RP in the title.

Sadly, many things on the module, from items to class abilities, are fashioned according to PvP. If PvP weren't a factor, many things would be massively different.

[Iolantir]

Potions are balanced for PvP because everyone has access to them.