Author Topic: new Subrace suggestion Genasi  (Read 1261 times)

herkles

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new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« on: July 02, 2021, 08:20:05 PM »
So on the discord some of us were talking about playing Genasi. Genasi are currently not a supported Subrace, but I think they could be and I think they would be fun to be able to play. A brief looking at them doesn't seem like they would be too broken balance wise but I am not a balance expert by any means. They are all ECL +1 and would IMO require an application. Still I am curious what others think of them. I have included there stats from the 3.5 Forgotten realms book.

Air Genasi
Spoiler: show
+2 Dex
+2 Int
-2 Wis
-2 cha
dark vision
levitate
+1 saving throws against all air spells and effects; increases by +1 for every five levels
breathless: immune to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation(like some poisons)


Earth Genasi
Spoiler: show
+2 Str
+2 Con
-2 Wis
-2 cha
dark vision
pass without trace once per day
+1 saving throws against all earth spells and effects; increases by +1 for every five levels


Fire Genasi
Spoiler: show
+2 Int
-2 cha
dark vision
pass without trace once per day
+1 saving throws against all fire spells and effects; increases by +1 for every five levels
control flame: fire genaisi can cause nonmagical fire within 10 feet to diminish to the levels of coals or flare to the brightness of daylight and double the normal radius of its illumination. This ability does not change the heat output or fuel consumption of the fire source, lasts 5 minutes and may be done once per day.


Water Genasi
Spoiler: show
+2 con
-2 cha
dark vision
pass without trace once per day
+1 saving throws against all water spells and effects; increases by +1 for every five levels
Water Genasi breathe water as an extraodinary ability
Create Water once per day.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 08:24:00 PM by herkles »


Revenant

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2021, 08:23:40 PM »
On one hand, I tend not to think planars are all that setting conducive. On the other hand?

We already have these.

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2021, 08:25:26 PM »
We discussed this on discord, and I don't think too much would be lost if they did not have their spell-like abilities. This would be more than made up for by the fact that they would likely be human subraces, getting a bonus feat at level 1 is much better than any of the spell-likes, except maybe Levitate.

Lucifron

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2021, 08:30:26 PM »
On one hand, I tend not to think planars are all that setting conducive. On the other hand?

We already have these.


Don't forgot Ice Dwarves with glowing blue eyes and frozen beards.

herkles

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2021, 08:32:34 PM »
On one hand, I tend not to think planars are all that setting conducive. On the other hand?

We already have these.



The ironic thing is that the descriptions of their trait options in the book doesn't mention fire hair for fire genasi despite it being a popular artistic choice.

Forgotten Realms campaign setting
Quote
They appear mostly human, with one or two unusual traits reflecting their quasi-elemental nature, such as skin the color of burnt coal, red hair that waves like flames, or eyes that glow when the genasi is angry.

Races of Fearun
Quote
Fire genasi are obviously not fully human, having mostly human features except for one or two exceptional traits related to their elemental ancestor, some examples of these features are:
Charcoal gray skin,
deep red skin,
red or orange hair that waves like flames,
eyes that glow when the genasi is angry,
unusually warm skin,
large red teeth, always smell of smoke.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 08:51:59 PM by herkles »


Neuwwwo

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2021, 08:56:15 PM »
We discussed this on discord, and I don't think too much would be lost if they did not have their spell-like abilities. This would be more than made up for by the fact that they would likely be human subraces, getting a bonus feat at level 1 is much better than any of the spell-likes, except maybe Levitate.
+1
Just on the 'rule of cool' aspect I support the addition of Fire Genasi. Making them a pyromancer warmage would be really thematic.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2021, 09:08:46 PM »
Air, earth, fire and water genasi?
How about Mist, Grave, Pyre and Blood genasi too? Cover all the corrupted elements.

herkles

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2021, 09:12:44 PM »
Air, earth, fire and water genasi?
How about Mist, Grave, Pyre and Blood genasi too? Cover all the corrupted elements.
What books are those four in and I will toss up their stats.


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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2021, 09:14:46 PM »
I really want to play a gensai again. This is one of the things I look for in a server, and even checked when I first heard about PotM. My earth gensai is one of my all time favorite characters to play and I'd love the ability to do so again. I don't even care much for the stats, nerf them into the ground if you want. I just want to play with the themes.
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MAB77

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2021, 09:41:27 PM »
This is a request that came back often over the years. We'd love to add them, but the answer will remain the same. Genasi are not included because we do not have the phenotypes models to represent them properly with this game engine, nor are we able to include all the abilities they are supposed to have.
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herkles

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2021, 09:51:00 PM »
This is a request that came back often over the years. We'd love to add them, but the answer will remain the same. Genasi are not included because we do not have the phenotypes models to represent them properly with this game engine, nor are we able to include all the abilities they are supposed to have.

We don't have the pheontype for them? the various traits mentioned are all are doable. Fire Genasi for example could have:

Charcoal gray skin,
deep red skin,
red or orange hair that waves like flames,
eyes that glow when the genasi is angry,
unusually warm skin,
large red teeth,
always smell of smoke.

All of that can be done currently.

As for the abilities, could remove them or adapt them; some look easier than others to adapt.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 09:57:45 PM by herkles »


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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2021, 03:17:01 AM »
This is a request that came back often over the years. We'd love to add them, but the answer will remain the same. Genasi are not included because we do not have the phenotypes models to represent them properly with this game engine, nor are we able to include all the abilities they are supposed to have.

Their phenotypes are basically normal human (maybe an argument for Half-Orc for Earth Genasi) in depictions where they're intended to be played as PCs, rather than monsters.



Remember always. We implement races, classes, spells and feats as closely as can be from the source material. It's our mission statement. If it cannot be done, we do not implement.
Beguiler and Warmage would like a word. Voodan. Assassin. Tiefling and all the other human-base subraces that get the bonus feat, too. Underdark races that should have light sensitivity. Changes, additions, and omissions happen regularly. Usually, so long as the spirit is kept, that seems sufficient.

The same goes for the genasi. The levitate, control flames and pass without traces of the air, fire and earth genasi are three powers that simply cannot work on this game engine. As we never substitute lost abilities with alternate powers, you are left with races that have little to provide in game. The create water of genasi could reasonably implemented, but then again the ability to create vials of water isn't really bringing much to the game. If we can't bring the other genasi might as well not include the water one.
Referencing this here from the Ghost thread because... it seems a lot more relevant to this discussion. They get a lot more than their independent spell-like abilities, none of which are integral to the portrayal of the races. The reason Fey'ri doesn't work is because Alter Self is significantly more integral to their portrayal.

I don't personally care one way or another whether Genasi gets in. Heck, I might even lean against it just because I'm super wary of planars. That said, I'd much rather it just be said "No, we don't want to" than excusing it with this. The barriers to Genasi are minimal compared to what we already have implemented.
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MAB77

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2021, 11:43:38 AM »
Their elemental related power is the core of the genasi identity. Can't have genasi without those.
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ObsidianOrb

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2021, 12:39:48 PM »
I'm pretty surprised that not being able to implement the abilities is the reason that they have been declined, I either have the 3.0 or the 3.5 version of the FR Campaign Setting and they look very monstrous. Theres no way that these things would be able to go anywhere near civilization without being hunted down.

herkles

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2021, 02:10:55 PM »
Their elemental related power is the core of the genasi identity. Can't have genasi without those.
Couldn't one adapt the stuff so fire genasi have something like continual flame, air genasi could have guest of wind, and earth could have something like longstrider or perhaps endurance?

We have done adaptations here. or else say assassins would have HIPs or People's champion would have the feat defender of the weak. So something that keeps the flavor but adapted to our server could work, yes?

I'm pretty surprised that not being able to implement the abilities is the reason that they have been declined, I either have the 3.0 or the 3.5 version of the FR Campaign Setting and they look very monstrous. Theres no way that these things would be able to go anywhere near civilization without being hunted down.

they can but they also don't have to look monstrous. Just like how the other plane touched can look monstrous or blend in more. a fire genasi for example could have say the following traits: red or orange hair that waves like flames, eyes that glow when the genasi is angry and unusually warm skin. And while this would be unusual it wouldn't make them look too out of place compared to other various plane touched or even just strange adventurers.


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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2021, 07:38:41 AM »
Their elemental related power is the core of the genasi identity. Can't have genasi without those.

I'm super skeptical that the ability to levitate (they'd likely be allowed to in DM events as we sometimes do currently with dragons/poly), control flame (could be done by self-lighting campfires; literally all it does in PnP is change the illumination radius of fire), pass without trace (not leaving tracks is the core of their identityi?), or create water (make ten gallons of water) once per day define the core of Genasi more than their cultural outlook, inherent temperament, physical characteristics, and surrounding elemental-influenced statistics including saves and attributes. I'm super skeptical any of the people eager to play Genasi concepts would agree, either.

I'm pretty surprised that not being able to implement the abilities is the reason that they have been declined, I either have the 3.0 or the 3.5 version of the FR Campaign Setting and they look very monstrous. Theres no way that these things would be able to go anywhere near civilization without being hunted down.

A lot of artists ignored the statement in the books that they have one or two traits from their heritage and instead basically just drew them as half-elementals.
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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2021, 07:59:32 AM »
Wouldn't it be possible to replace the innate spells impossible to show within the game with similar ones? Like gust of wind for air, burning hands or continual flame for fire, camouflage for earth and frost breath for water genasi? Obviously those are just suggestions, but I think we can easily replace the missing abilities if we allow ourselves to be creative.

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Re: new Subrace suggestion Genasi
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2021, 02:10:43 PM »
Wouldn't it be possible to replace the innate spells impossible to show within the game with similar ones? Like gust of wind for air, burning hands or continual flame for fire, camouflage for earth and frost breath for water genasi? Obviously those are just suggestions, but I think we can easily replace the missing abilities if we allow ourselves to be creative.

Possible yes, but that's really not something we normally do. As often repeated, our goal is to recreate the D&D rulesets as faithfully as possible to the source material, within reasons of course and under the limitations of the old game engine. Particularly when it comes to classes, races, spells and feats. Yes, we have plenty of custom features and adaptations already, usually for things that were already implemented and needed balancing. I'm sure we'll implement many more variations in the future as well. That does not justify doing it for each and every instances.

We did review the possibility of adding the genasi at our last dev meeting. It was decided again not to do so. At this time, adding a race just to add a race isn't something we wish to do, especially not a restricted outcast race. The main problems remain the same, inability to script their elemental powers as per source material and the lack of suitable phenotypes. Just humans with different skin/hair colors isn't deemed sufficient. If the water sweating, fiery hairs, patches of rocks and what not could be visually implemented we'd be having a much different discussion now. But as it stands genasi is a race that both cannot be represented correctly visually and for which the main abilities can't be scripted. It is also felt they do not add anything of significance to a gothic horror atmosphere. Look no further as to why they were denied again.

Without their elemental powers genasi offer nothing to the server that other races don't already offer. That's what I meant by being at the core of their identity. Genasi do not form a cultural group of their own. They are either integrated or kept at bay of the prevalent culture from the place they are from, and those cultural outlook will vary greatly from one to another.

Of their powers, control flame is a much more potent ability in p&p than you give it credit for. Though it may be limited to torches and campfires at first, it goes up to the ability to quell or increase fire encompassing very large buildings. Something we can't reproduce. We have plenty of other easy and mundane means to lit campfires. Having that as a race feature would be redundant and lackluster. Levitating and flight are not mechanically supported aside as a visual effect for certain creature models. A race power cannot be something dependant on a DMs presence. There's too few of them around and they cannot be expected to be available 100% of the time you'd need to invoke that power. I would btw totally agree on substituting levitate for gust of wind in my own p&p campaigns, but that runs contrary to our goals for the server. Pass without trace, involves being able not to leave tracks and scent, and not to be scryed upon. Pretty much the default state for all characters already as neither of these 3 parts are features on the server. Creating water is the one feature that can easily be scripted, but that would be of too limited use on our server.

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MAB

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