[Prestige Class] Let's Take a Look at the Assassin PrC

[Dardonas]

This topic came up in the PotM Discord, but essentially it's preferable to being a rogue than an assassin, and assassin exists mostly as an RP PrC than a rogue.

Let's look at why:

- Rogues get 8+Int skill points per level, Assassins get 4+Int skill points per level.
- Rogues get access to more bonus feats, and additional ones past 10, Assassins get no bonus feats.

Let's look at the Assassin PrC and why in PnP they have advantages:

Death Attack:

Spoiler: show

Death Attack: If the assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails her Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim's mind and body become enervated, rendering her completely helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.

Death Attack in PnP is a melee-only attack that can be chosen to be a Save or Die.  While I recognize that the system in place in PnP is a bit convoluted to implement something like this, it is a significant loss in terms of the class.  Regardless of whether it is able to be balanced in the same fashion, I would propose that we add some buffs to account for the loss of certain features, spells and abilities.

Other Altered Assassin Features:

Spelllcasting:

Spoiler: show

Spells: Beginning at 1st level, an assassin gains the ability to cast a number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, the assassin must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so an assassin with an Intelligence of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Assassin bonus spells are based on Intelligence, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the assassin’s Intelligence modifier (if any). When the assassin gets 0 spells per day of a given level, such as 0 1st-level spells at 1st level, the assassin gets only bonus spells. An assassin without a bonus spell for that level cannot yet cast a spell of that level. The assassin's spell list appears below. An assassin prepares and casts spells just as a wizard does.

Original Spell List:

Spoiler: show

Assassin Spell List

Assassins choose their spells from the following list:

1st Level: change self, detect poison, ghost sound, obscuring mist, spider climb.

2nd Level: alter self, darkness, pass without trace, undetectable alignment.

3rd Level: deeper darkness, invisibility, misdirection, nondetection.

4th Level: dimension door, freedom of movement, improved invisibility, poison.

PotM Assassin Spell List:

Spoiler: show

Level 1:

    Bloodletting
    Detect Poison
    Disguise Self
    Ghostly Visage
    Knock
    Sleep
    True Strike
    Ultravision

Level 2:

    Cat's Grace
    Darkness
    Fox's Cunning
    Invisibility

Level 3:

    Deep Slumber
    Insight
    Magic Circle against Alignment
    Poison
    Spider Poison

Level 4:

    Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
    Freedom of Movement
    Glibness
    Heart Ripper
    Improved Invisibility
    Shadow Form
    Stop Heart

Alright, so while there are certainly stronger spells assassins have access to in PnP, they are also limited in that they don't get many bonus spells per level.  PotM also has a rich selection of spells.  There is certainly some give and take with the class, though I would argue that it's a lot more give and a lot less take.

When we implemented Beguiler and Warmage, there were features and abilities that could not be implemented with the classes and they were instead given bonus feats.  They are still functional and maintain the class identity.  Assassin should be the same.

In 3.5e, they give Assassins Hide in Plain Sight at level 8.  While it would certainly be something to even the odds of the class, I think it might be too powerful in PotM and take away from Shadowdancers, though I certainly wouldn't complain if it was added.

There are some notorious NPC enemies in Hazlan with this PrC.  Curst Assassins.  The Cursts Assassins have a modified spell list that includes See Invisibility and access to the epic feat, Blinding Speed.

Blinding Speed:

Spoiler: show

Blinding Speed [Epic]

Prerequisite: Dex 25.

The character can act as if hasted for 5 rounds each day. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds. Activating this power is a free action.
Special

A character can gain this feat multiple times. Each time he or she takes the feat, it grants an additional 5 rounds of haste per day.

I bring up all of these things as to now list ways that the class could be brought on par with things the class has lost in comparison to PnP, none of these being mutually exclusive:

- Give the Assassin PrC a handful of bonus feats to represent the loss of Save or Die Death Attack, and the loss of access to other powerful spells.
- Give the Assassin hide in plain sight at level 8
- Give the Assassin two extra skill points, for a total of 6+Int modifier
- Give the Assassin access to the epic feat, Blinding Speed
- Give the Assassin access to See Invisibility or True Seeing, as well as any other proposed spells to represent the loss of its other spells.

[herkles]

Btw here are a number of the spells in PnP that they get catalogued by book. I think I got more of them, though I could be wrong. If there are 3.5 books that I missed, one can toss them up I guess.

Spell Compendium

Spoiler: show

1ST-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELLS
Critical Strike: For 1 round you gain +1d6 damage, doubled threat range, and +4 on attack rolls to confirm critical threats.
Dead End: Removes spoor of one creature/level.
Distract Assailant: One creature is fl at-footed for 1 round.
Ebon Eyes: Subject can see through magical darkness.
Insightful Feint: Gain +10 on your next Bluff check to feint in combat.
Instant Locksmith: Make Disable Device or Open Lock check at +2 as free action.
Instant Search: Make Search check at +2 as free action.
Lightfoot: Your move does not provoke attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Low-Light Vision: See twice as far as a human in poor illumination.
Shock and Awe: Flat-footed creatures get –10 on initiative
Silent Portal: Negates sound from door or window.
Sniper’s Shot: No range limit on next ranged sneak
attack.
Sticky Fingers: You get +10 on Sleight of Hand checks.

2ND-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELLS
Absorb Weapon: Hide a weapon, gain a Bluff check with a +4 bonus on feint attempts when you draw it.
Blade of Pain and Fear: Creates blade of gnashing teeth.
Fell the Greatest Foe: Deal extra damage to creatures larger than you.
Fire Shuriken: Magical shuriken deal 3d6 fire damage.
Ice Knife: Magical shard of ice deals 2d8 cold damage plus 2 Dex damage, or deals 1d8 cold damage in 10-ft.-radius burst.
Invisibility, Swift: You are invisible for 1 round or until you attack.
Iron Silence: Armor touched has no armor check penalty on Hide and Move Silently for 1 hour/level.
Marked Object: You gain bonus to track a specific being.
Phantom Foe: Subject is always flanked by one creature.
Veil of Shadow: Darkness grants you concealment.

3RD-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELLS
Amorphous Form: Subject becomes puddle like and can slip through cracks quickly.
Fangs of the Vampire King: Grow vampire fangs.
Find the Gap: Your attacks ignore armor and natural armor.
Spectral Weapon: Use quasi-real weapon to make touch attacks.
Spider Poison: Touch deals 1d6 Str damage, repeats in 1 minute.
Wraithstrike: Your melee attacks strike as touch attacks for 1 round.

4TH-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELLS
Cursed Blade: Wounds dealt by weapon can’t be healed without remove curse.
Heart Ripper: Kills living creature with up to your caster level in HD.
Hide from Dragons: Dragons can’t perceive one subject/2 levels.
Implacable Pursuer: You know where prey is, as long as it’s moving. Shadow Form: Gain +4 on Hide, Move Silently, and Escape Artist checks, and concealment; you can move through obstacles if you have ranks in Escape Artist.
Shadow Phase: Subject becomes partially incorporeal.
Sniper’s Eye: Gain +10 Spot, darkvision, 60-ft. range for sneak attacks, and death attacks with ranged weapons.
Vulnerability: Reduces an opponent’s damage reduction.

Complete Scoundrel

Spoiler: show

1st Level
Healer’s Vision: Gain +5 bonus on Heal checks, and +2 attack and damage on sneak attacks.
Mimicry: Perfectly mimic familiar sounds, voices, or accents.
2nd Level
Smoke Stairs: Walk up a column of smoke as if it were solid.
3rd Level
Create Fetch: Craft a temporary duplicate of yourself that follows telepathic orders.
4th Level
Assassin’s Darkness: Globe of pure darkness blocks all sight but your own.

Complete Mage

Spoiler: show

1st Level
Bloodletting: Your light weapon creates bleeding wound that deals an extra 1d6 damage per round.
Catsfeet: Reroll a Balance, Climb, Jump, or Move Silently check with +5 bonus.
Critical Strike: Ignore miss chance from concealment; deliver sneak attack against foe with concealment.
Reaving Aura: All creatures below 0 hit points within 10 feet of you take 1 point of damage.
Vigilant Slumber: Set specific conditions under which you immediately wake up.

2nd Level
Animate Weapon: A weapon animates and fights for you.
Near Horizon: Remove increment-based penalties on ranged attacks.
Summon Weapon: Create normal, nonmagical light weapon.

3rd Level
Enduring Scrutiny: Become aware when target performs  designated action.
Nightmare Terrain: Create patch of illusory terrain that hinders foes and allows you to hide.
Pall of Twilight: Veil of shadow impedes sight and sound.
Rusted Blade: Touched weapon delivers filth fever.
Toxic Tongue: Generate small amount of poison that you can spit or place on a weapon.
Vital Strike: Your next attack deals sneak attack damage.

4th Level
Deathsight: Make death attack without spending rounds in observation.
Mordenkainen's Trusted Bloodhound: Create a ferocious hound that tracks and attacks foes.
Unseen Strike: Invisibility effect triggered to activate the instant you successfully attack someone.

Complete Arcane

Spoiler: show

1ST-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELL
Low-Light Vision: See twice as far as a human in poor illumination.
2ND-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELLS
Fire Shuriken: Magical shuriken deal 3d6 fi re damage.
Ice Knife: Magical shard of ice deals 2d8 cold damage plus 2
Dex damage, or deals 1d8 cold damage in 10-ft.-radius burst.
4TH-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELL
Heart Ripper: Kills living creatures with less than 4 HD

Book of Vile Darkness

Spoiler: show

1st-Level Assassin Spells
Addiction. Subject becomes addicted to a drug.
Angry Ache. Subject takes –2 penalty on attack rolls.
Black Bag. Create extradimensional bag of torture tools.
Death Grimace. Caster leaves magical “calling card” on a corpse.
Stupor. One helpless subject is put in a state that allows him to be moved but take no other actions.

2nd-Level Assassin Spells
Darklight. Creates 5-ft.-radius area where all can see without light.
Sacrificial Skill. Caster gains +5 bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks made during sacrifice.

3rd-Level Assassin Spells
Masochism. For every 10 hp damage caster takes, he gains +1 on attacks, saves, and checks.
Sadism. For every 10 hp damage caster deals, he gains +1 on attacks, saves, and checks.

4th-Level Assassin Spells
Flesh Armor. Caster gains DR 10/+1.
Stop Heart. Subject drops to –8 hp immediately

City Scape

Spoiler: show

1st Level
Secret Weapon: Makes hidden weapon almost impossible to detect.
2nd Level
False Peacebond: As peacebond, but subject can draw weapon freely.

Liber Mortis

Spoiler: show

2ND-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELL
Blade of Pain and Fear: Creates blade of gnashing teeth.
3RD-LEVEL ASSASSIN SPELL
Fangs of the Vampire King: Grow vampire fangs

[Wilkins1952]

- Give the Assassin PrC a handful of bonus feats to represent the loss of Save or Die and other powerful spells.
- Give the Assassin hide in plain sight at level 8
- Give the Assassin two extra skill points, for a total of 6+Int modifier
- Give the Assassin access to the epic feat, Blinding Speed
- Give the Assassin access to See Invisibility or True Seeing, as well as any other proposed spells to represent the loss of its other spells.

I agree with this though I would perhaps do something like this instead;

- Assassin levels count as Rogue levels in terms of feats and stack with them so 8 Rogue 2 Assasin = 10 Rogue on paper for feat requirements
- Assassins have 8+Int skill points same as Rogue
- Assassins have True Seeing at 4th circle
- Assassins get HIPS at level 10 Assassin

I think this will give them a bit more utility and make it feel as if Assassin is just a variation of Rogue while still being unique. The HIPS at level 10 still gives shadowdancer something to be unique for and usable while 10 levels of a PrC takes dedication. This should make them more viable and less a negative that people suffer for RP because as it stands Assassin is possibly the worst PrC if you want to have a few spells Multiclassing Bard Rogue is the way to go this should at least give a variation.

[Revenant]

I've done the math before, back when we added Disguise, but Assassins are the second worst class in the game when it comes to skillpoints vs class skills. For those interested, peep the spoiler.  It includes a former suggestion I'd considered putting forward of adjusting their skillpoints.

Spoiler: show

Code: [Select]

(AA)   : 6 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 1.5 skills to Points   1 BAB
Barb   : 6 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 1.5 skills to Points   1
(CR)   : 14 class skills, 8 + Int/level, 1.75 skills to Points  3/4
Warmage: 7 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 1.75 skills to Points  1/2
(Grime): 11 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 1.833 skills to Points 1
(HW)   : 8 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 2 skills to Points     1/2
Voodan : 8 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 2 skills to Points     3/4
Wiz    : 4 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 2 skills to Points     1/2
(SD)   : 13 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 2.166 skills to Points 3/4
Ranger : 13 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 2.166 skills to Points 1
Druid  : 9 class skills,  4 + Int/level, 2.25 skills to Points  3/4
(Drgst): 14 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 2.333 skills to Points 3/4
Rogue  : 19 class skills, 8 + Int/level, 2.375 skills to Points 3/4
(Shftr): 10 class skills, 4 + Int/level, 2.5 skills to Points   1
Sorc   : 5 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 2.5 skills to Points   1/2
(MH)   : 16 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 2.666 skills to Points 3/4
Bard   : 18 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     3/4
Bglr   : 18 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     1/2
Fighter: 6 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     1
Monk   : 12 class skills, 4 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     3/4 (Monk)
Cleric : 6 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     3/4
(Ass*) : 18 class skills, 6 + Int/level, 3 skills to Points     3/4
(PC)   : 13 class skills, 4 + Int/level, 3.25 skills to Points  1
Paladin: 7 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3.5 skills to Points   1
(DC)   : 7 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3.5 skills to Points   1
(DwDef): 7 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3.5 skills to Points   1
(WM)   : 7 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 3.5 skills to Points   1
(Ass**): 18 class skills, 5 + Int/level, 3.6 skills to Points   3/4
(BG)   : 8 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 4 skills to Points     1
(PM)   : 8 class skills,  2 + Int/level, 4 skills to Points     1/2
(Ass)  : 18 class skills, 4 + Int/level, 4.5 skills to Points   3/4
(DgDsc): 11 class skills, 2 + Int/level, 5.5 skills to Points   3/4
*Assassin moved to 6 + Int
**Assassin moved to 5 + Int
() = PRC

Dardonas is correct in saying that it's mostly an RP PrC. The only reason you'd really want to take it otherwise is for either Invis/True Strike without consumable use or for an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack on a pure rogue. Death Attack is janky and is unlikely to have a DC that matters without gimping your ability to actually land the Death Attack, and poisons are a sad joke.

Having played one, they are stretched incredibly thin on skillpoints if you want to be effective. Building an Assassin is an exercise in meta knowledge and using spreadsheets to know at what level you need to put in how many skillpoints, because going across breakpoints you'd only know from experience with the server means significant losses later on. I've been told that their lower skillpoints is owed to them spending more training in martial pursuits. If anything, the class is more academic, having wizard-style spellcasting and a class ability keyed off of Int rather than a physical stat.

I know we're never going to get 8th level HiPS because it would make Shadowdancers sad, though the comparative minimum investment to reach HiPS between the two is significantly different. Currently we have three classes with HiPS, two of them being PrCs. Ranger gets it at 17, Shadowdancer as soon as 8, and Grimetrekker at 14. Assassin would get it at 13. This all assumes earliest possible investment, which isn't always possible and usually isn't preferred, in the case of Assassin. A realistic assassin would see HiPS closer to 15-17, as you generally want several levels of a full BAB class (ranger or fighter) early to be serviceable at your job of assassinating. They also wouldn't have the option to take the opening level of the class and then delay the remaining less useful levels until nearly max, like a Shadowdancer.

That said, I think a compromise would be to give them a unique Shrouded Dance-like ability, perhaps with uses per day tied to their Intelligence modifier. Shrouded Dance is potent and fulfills the same class fantasy of an Assassin vanishing into the night after their kill (or escaping after a botch), though the round delay for animation is a significant vulnerability and constraint on flexibility.

[PlatointheCave]

It is an RP option unless you're a monk, then it is very powerful.

I've played three assassins and it's always a sacrifice mechanically speaking.

HiPs has been asked for and refused countless times. I don't think it takes away from the SD PrC as that's very heavily about roleplaying stuff an assassin doesn't do.

The class is weak, but I guess it never bothered me much. Many PrCs are fairly weak.

[Dardonas]

That said, I think a compromise would be to give them a unique Shrouded Dance-like ability, perhaps with uses per day tied to their Intelligence modifier. Shrouded Dance is potent and fulfills the same class fantasy of an Assassin vanishing into the night after their kill (or escaping after a botch), though the round delay for animation is a significant vulnerability and constraint on flexibility.

I am actually quite fond of this idea, giving them Shrouded Dance at level 8 or level 10 in place of no-cooldown HiPS, or the HiPS charge CD based on int mod.

[Kaninchen]

I am far from an expert on the class, but I was under the impression assassin's have lower skill points as a balance because they get spells?

[Revenant]

That's one possible reason, though my take is more generally that villainous classes had a tendency to get left on the wayside in 3E - players were broadly expected to be playing heroes, outside of certain splat. Their spell list is pretty lackluster - I mentioned True Strike and Invis being more or less the only standouts, because you can get them with minimal investment and they're somewhat useful. Other classes in similar positions, skillmonkeys with (much stronger) spellcasting ability like Beguiler and Bard, get 6+Int/level. Naturally, they don't have Sneak Attack.

[Syl]

Giving assassins HIPS is a bad idea. Sure there is now a timer for it BUT giving them it will make getting the PrC more difficult to acquire because now they have something that id rather OP. If they want HIPS and I'm shocked I'm saying this as a SD....invest in getting the feat.

HIPS is not something that is added to classes on a whim without heavy consideration, Rangers get it but that is at level 18? And only works when I'm wilderness correct? Which is limited I believe.

I'm not opposed to the blinding speed feat that's only what..a daily haste?

[Revenant]

Rangers get it at 17 in natural terrain because they got it in 3.5e, which we updated Ranger to more or less match (that's also where their current skillpoints come from).

People are suggesting HiPS (or in my case a Shrouded Dance equivalent as a compromise) at 8 because they get it in 3.5e. I went over in my needlessly long post on when they'd likely get it in terms of overall character level. Grimetrekkers don't get it in PnP, but were given it because true seeing underground was considered OP.

Blinding Speed would be very powerful. I don't think Assassins need to be able to self-haste for 10 rounds.

[BraveSirRobin]

Rangers get it at 17 in natural terrain because they got it in 3.5e, which we updated Ranger to more or less match (that's also where their current skillpoints come from).

People are suggesting HiPS (or in my case a Shrouded Dance equivalent as a compromise) at 8 because they get it in 3.5e. I went over in my needlessly long post on when they'd likely get it in terms of overall character level. Grimetrekkers don't get it in PnP, but were given it because true seeing underground was considered OP.

Blinding Speed would be very powerful. I don't think Assassins need to be able to self-haste for 10 rounds.

This sums my thoughts up appropriately; Ranger had no reason to receive HiPS, we all have Shrouded Dance with a feat tax, regardless of class. Grimetrekkers weren't supposed to have it, but were given it anyways. Assassins receiving HiPS does not strike me as particularly overpowered, given their class features are mostly useless. An important speaking point which has not been addressed very much in this thread (or maybe it has, and I missed it) is that it the primary class feature of the Assassin PrC is Death Attack, which has been nerfed ever since NWN: EE launched to be weaker than its initial implementation.

Death Attack used to fire off every time you hit someone, which allowed INT/DEX focused Rogue/Assassins to get away with it. Following the launch of NWN: EE, Beamdog directly nerfed Death Attack to fire off not once every attack, but once every round, meaning only your first attack rolls a relatively low DC for paralysis.

I used to muse at the idea of playing an assassin. After that nerf, I realized a Ranger with HiPS and a Longbow w/ Banebow on it is going to be better at assassinating someone than an Assassin, and even in urban environments he can invest into Shrouded Dance to get away.

A Rogue can do an Assassin's job better than an Assassin, a Bard can do an Assassins' job better than an Assassin, and more aptly, a Shadowdancer mixed with either of these classes can. It is purely a roleplay PrC, and it's not even an exclusive item on the market for that sort of roleplay.

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

[EO]

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

[Dardonas]

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

What of the idea of having a few charges of an HiPS ability based on int modifier or giving them access to a shrouded dance like once-per-day?  I can see that argument for active, unlimited HiPS, but for most assassin builds Shrouded Dance is required and you don't really get the feats between rogue/assassin to afford those.

[JustMonika]

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

I can confirm from having played my Assassin Vampire that HIPS/Death Attack is /extremely/ powerful.

[PlatointheCave]

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

A shadowdancer can easily solo the same bosses. The difference of 3d6 sneak die (the loss of 5 rogue levels) does not meaningfully change things. Those same bosses are also easily killed by an assassin utilising darkness. Perhaps even more easily.

I do agree that getting to hit someone with a death attack paralysis DC repeatedly is out of line with the spirit of a death attack (a studied strike to be used against someone who isn't expecting it). But the idea of giving them shrouded dance instead seems reasonable to me. It isn't instant, it's limited in uses and leaves a meaningful decision between SD and assassin.

[PlatointheCave]

I can confirm from having played my Assassin Vampire that HIPS/Death Attack is /extremely/ powerful.

It should also be noted, as an aside, that using mist form as a "hips" is not appropriate for vampire MPCs and should be avoided.

[Devil's Moon]

I can confirm from having played my Assassin Vampire that HIPS/Death Attack is /extremely/ powerful.

It should also be noted, as an aside, that using mist form as a "hips" is not appropriate for vampire MPCs and should be avoided.

And reported.

[BraveSirRobin]

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

Doesn't HiPS have a 10 second cooldown once you've dropped out of it, before it works again?

[McNastea]

I actually do agree their skill points are really weird and make taking levels just as weird.

That being said the spells they get access to shouldn't be downplayed. For a first strike, strike hard class having true struke is just enormously powerful. I also could be wrong but last I knew anyway couldn't get true strike scrolls anywhere. I used to stock up on them xD

I understand that's just a small part of the point made, it's just all I had to add.

[BraveSirRobin]

I actually do agree their skill points are really weird and make taking levels just as weird.

That being said the spells they get access to shouldn't be downplayed. For a first strike, strike hard class having true struke is just enormously powerful. I also could be wrong but last I knew anyway couldn't get true strike scrolls anywhere. I used to stock up on them xD

I understand that's just a small part of the point made, it's just all I had to add.

There are items which have it, however.

[PrimetheGrime]

I actually do agree their skill points are really weird and make taking levels just as weird.

That being said the spells they get access to shouldn't be downplayed. For a first strike, strike hard class having true struke is just enormously powerful. I also could be wrong but last I knew anyway couldn't get true strike scrolls anywhere. I used to stock up on them xD

I understand that's just a small part of the point made, it's just all I had to add.

There are items which have it, however.

Sure there are, but they're usually one shots. This is true strike on tap. Very powerful to have at your fingertips.

[Kinga]

I actually do agree their skill points are really weird and make taking levels just as weird.

That being said the spells they get access to shouldn't be downplayed. For a first strike, strike hard class having true struke is just enormously powerful. I also could be wrong but last I knew anyway couldn't get true strike scrolls anywhere. I used to stock up on them xD

I understand that's just a small part of the point made, it's just all I had to add.

There are items which have it, however.

Sure there are, but they're usually one shots. This is true strike on tap. Very powerful to have at your fingertips.

There are one or two items that have multiple casts of TS, but they're rare and expensive.

[BraveSirRobin]

There's a Tonfa mode in the module that still drops with it, isn't there?

[Syl]

Given it receives it in 3.5e, and and a Base class like Ranger has received its 3.5e update; I don't see the harm. I think there are a lot of cautious voices in this room, but I truthfully do not see the trouble with doing it. A level 8 Assassin will probably be level 15-20 by the time they achieve that level; A Shadowdancer gets it level 1, at whatever level they take the class. Shrouded Dance and Ranger is proof in the pudding that it is not a unique feature to solely the Shadowdancer class, the Shadowdancer just gets access to it the easiest.

HiPS/Death Attack combination is particularly overpowered. It's much more powerful on an assassin that 1) dishes out more sneak attack damage than a shadowdancer and 2) that can then get a Death Attack out every round against the same target. With enough patience it lets an assassin solo most dungeons on the server short of a few bosses with True Seeing.

Doesn't HiPS have a 10 second cooldown once you've dropped out of it, before it works again?

10 or 15 seconds yes. But that is still pretty busted since by the time they get it back they can vanish...and go for another death attack.

Though death attack also falls under the underwhelming power of a low DC like Death Arrow. Until you hit 9 and 10 assassin where the DC is often two points higher. Fort saves are normally easy to make come high levels depending on the class.

[Bad_Bud]

I am not trying to argue one way or another, because maybe assassins do suck, but I found a lot of the arguments being made toward why they suck to be heavily flawed, so I want to address that. I'd also like to say the assassin class has been given a lot of love on our server compared to the base implementation in Neverwinter Nights.

Death Attack in PnP is a melee touch attack that can be chosen to be a Save or Die.

Death attack in PnP is not a melee touch attack. A touch attack is specifically an attack that ignores all AC except 10 + dodge + deflection.

Alright, so while there are certainly stronger spells assassins have access to in PnP, they are also limited in that they don't get bonus spells.

There are two things to unpack here:

1) I don't know what you mean by not getting bonus spells. I am not playing an assassin personally so I can't check, but I'm going to operate under the assumption the Assassin's spellcasting works correctly. I think you may not understand what a bonus spell is though. Go here, scroll down to Ability Scores. There is a table that lists the number of bonus spells based on your spellcasting ability score. For a prepared spellcasting class, this adds bonus spell slots. For a spontaneous spellcasting class like Assassin, this increases the number of casts per day, but does not increase the number of spells known.

2) Assassins didn't even used to have a spellbook, and the spellbook they have now is probably the best of all the 4-level spellcasting classes.

• Knock gives assassins up to a +5 bonus to opening locks, which rogues do not have access to.
• Cat's Grace is a very useful buff for a rogue-like character to have in their pocket at all times.
• Darkness is great replacement for HiPS.
• Invisibility and Improved Invisibility have incredible utility.
• Constant access to Insight and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance on a class with full access to spot makes Assassins the most potent stalkers in the game.
• Freedom of Movement is just a really good spell in general.
• Poison, Spider Poison, Deep Slumber, and Heart Ripper/Stop Heart are really only there to enhance specific roleplay scenarios against lower level targets, but they're still pretty cool for that purpose.

Anyone arguing the assassin spellbook sucks has a steep hill to climb in my opinion. The assassin spellbook is meant to provide access to powerful utility that enhances what an assassin is already good at, and it does a good job of that.

There are some notorious NPC enemies in Hazlan with this PrC.  Curst Assassins.  The Cursts Assassins have a modified spell list that includes See Invisibility and access to the epic feat, Blinding Speed.

It's not a compelling argument to say that because a monster has assassin in the name and has access to certain abilities, that the player class of the same name should have these abilities.

Give the Assassin PrC a handful of bonus feats to represent the loss of Save or Die and other powerful spells.

The class has two save or die spells.

Give the Assassin access to See Invisibility or True Seeing, as well as any other proposed spells to represent the loss of its other spells.

Which spells specifically are being lost here? The assassin spellbook is already better than what's represented in the d20SRD.

Btw here are a number of the spells in PnP that they get catalogued by book. I think I got more of them, though I could be wrong. If there are 3.5 books that I missed, one can toss them up I guess.

Spells etc.

If you're going to suggest spells, please suggest specific spells. Suggest how a spell should be implemented in your own opinion into the game. Dumping the entire assassin spell list is not helpful, especially when it lists spells which are already in the game. I realize not all players understand which spells can or can't be implemented properly, but some fairly obviously can't be implemented in a reasonable way, like Amorphous Form, Black Bag, and Addiction. Curate your own suggestions, don't just suggest everything. A massive block of content documenting the assassin spell list clutters up the argument.


In summary, I would narrow this down to only two things:

1) Some compensation for not having HiPS could at least be argued.

2) Because rogues get bonus feats above and beyond PnP (and really, every class to varying degrees of successful/unsuccessful balance), there may be an argument that assassins are not given a fair number of bonus feats, or at least a bonus feat to replace HiPS (if they are not already getting one).

Everything else seems either incorrect or misdirected to me. Sorry for the huge post.