Author Topic: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2  (Read 3010 times)

Duayne

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2021, 03:10:22 AM »
The QOL change I would make is to simply make it so ECL races are eligible for full XP from things at their shown level the same as everyone else. But to keep the increased XP required between levels, perhaps even increase this slightly to compensate for this making the early levels much more forgiving

Dardonas

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2021, 03:25:24 AM »
The QOL change I would make is to simply make it so ECL races are eligible for full XP from things at their shown level the same as everyone else. But to keep the increased XP required between levels, perhaps even increase this slightly to compensate for this making the early levels much more forgiving

This would make ECL bearable for all ECL and would at least give the "edge" of being ECL for relevant level content.

Zyemeth

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2021, 07:47:24 AM »
This----^ If people are going to be end-game capped, having the ability to gain xp at least from things you have some chance of actually fighting with seems to solve the core issue. The fact that you can never really participate in dungeons that offer any real reward is the most awful part. As stated before, your dungeoning experience is mostly existing and an invisible backpack exp sponge for many irl months.

Ken14

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2021, 10:18:06 AM »
The QOL change I would make is to simply make it so ECL races are eligible for full XP from things at their shown level the same as everyone else. But to keep the increased XP required between levels, perhaps even increase this slightly to compensate for this making the early levels much more forgiving

+1

Hathor

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2021, 11:35:55 AM »
The QOL change I would make is to simply make it so ECL races are eligible for full XP from things at their shown level the same as everyone else. But to keep the increased XP required between levels, perhaps even increase this slightly to compensate for this making the early levels much more forgiving

+1

+1 as well.

I also want to repeat my suggestion of being able to choose, at creation, to give up the benefits of the ECL race in order to play without ECL penalties. This would effectively put the PC at half-elf level of power in terms of race, but allow reaching 20. This would allow people who purely want to RP the race and don't care about the power to do so.

distilled1

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2021, 12:44:08 PM »
I also want to repeat my suggestion of being able to choose, at creation, to give up the benefits of the ECL race in order to play without ECL penalties. This would effectively put the PC at half-elf level of power in terms of race, but allow reaching 20. This would allow people who purely want to RP the race and don't care about the power to do so.

This seems like a great option.
If a mad lad like me was in charge, I'd just equalize the stats of all races for that exact purpose. Encouraging people to roleplay whatever race they want without said race's statistics influencing their decision.

MAB77

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2021, 12:49:57 PM »
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the drow as represented on our server are as close as can be to the source material, which is always what we strive for.

We have no plans to adjust the drow any further. The ECL +2 is considered justified on account of the powers that subrace gets. Consider as well that they are not facing restrictions as harsh as they would in P&P. Drow are in a good place. High level ones are usually quite successful and their magic resistance often helps them get the better on even higher level characters. There is no need to intervene and change the current balance.

Of ECL in general, it is successful in acting as a deterrent to limit unusual races. This is reason enough to keep as is. D&D is a game where classes and races are inherently different from each other. This automatically induces imbalances between those. These differences are quite fine. It allows for challenges of different levels. Playing an ECL race is one of those challenges at your disposal. To be embraced or not as you prefer. But ECL+2 is part of the drow deal, and here to stay, as is.
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MAB

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Dardonas

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2021, 01:22:50 PM »
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the drow as represented on our server are as close as can be to the source material, which is always what we strive for.

We have no plans to adjust the drow any further. The ECL +2 is considered justified on account of the powers that subrace gets. Consider as well that they are not facing restrictions as harsh as they would in P&P. Drow are in a good place. High level ones are usually quite successful and their magic resistance often helps them get the better on even higher level characters. There is no need to intervene and change the current balance.

Of ECL in general, it is successful in acting as a deterrent to limit unusual races. This is reason enough to keep as is. D&D is a game where classes and races are inherently different from each other. This automatically induces imbalances between those. These differences are quite fine. It allows for challenges of different levels. Playing an ECL race is one of those challenges at your disposal. To be embraced or not as you prefer. But ECL+2 is part of the drow deal, and here to stay, as is.

I mean, can't we just make it so that this arbitrary experience push is gotten rid of?  I'm talking about how ECL characters cannot do relevant level content and get experience for it, such as the Gremishka cave or the Beetle cave.  Most people I know would be fine with ECL if it means we could just do things with our friends and fellow players instead of being a burden to them all throughout our experience.  If it takes ECL characters fifty times of doing the Gremishka cave rather than the ten times that normal characters get to achieve that level up, I would be fine with it. 

Also, let ECL characters enchant at 12 since they're ECL 14.  Either they're not ECL 14 or they are, why are we hitting ECL characters both ways in this regard? 

I know you mentioned that this deterrent for playing ECL is meant to make it a miserable experience, and it still can be, but could there at least be some slack given with this?  We're here for collaborative RP after all and at least give a perk of being ECL for those ECL races that, while may be close to the source material such as Drow, are entirely overrated and underperforming for that 2 level penalty.  I mean if we were after powerbuilds with subraces, we would have just picked Sylvanesti with no ECL penalty.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 01:30:13 PM by Dardonas »

MAB77

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2021, 01:54:34 PM »
[...]I know you mentioned that this deterrent for playing ECL is meant to make it a miserable experience[...]

"Miserable experience" are your words not mine. I always had fun with all my characters ECL or not. It's the character concept that matters, not the mechanical progression. it,s a deterrent to those that wish to pick unusual races only for their mechanical value.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 01:56:42 PM by MAB77 »
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MAB

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Dardonas

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2021, 02:02:28 PM »
"Miserable experience" are your words not mine. I always had fun with all my characters ECL or not. It's the character concept that matters, not the progression.

Of ECL in general, it is successful in acting as a deterrent to limit unusual races. [...]

It is successful in acting as a deterrent because it is a miserable experience to do relevant level content with them.  Not many people enjoy sitting in the back of higher level dungeons, leeching and contributing nothing at level two and waiting for experience to drop on their lap so they can feel like a full character in their parties possibly by level four.

I agree in that I have a blast with the RP on my ECL character, but if you play one then you have to admit the experience of leveling is a miserable one ESPECIALLY starting out at level two and not being able to gain experience from relevant content.  My suggestion is to just let them have experience like any other level two character.  It will still take a lot of grinding to get them that next level, but at least they can feel like they can contribute by doing relevant content. 

Derek Jeter

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Re: [Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2021, 05:51:17 PM »
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the drow as represented on our server are as close as can be to the source material, which is always what we strive for.

We have no plans to adjust the drow any further. The ECL +2 is considered justified on account of the powers that subrace gets. Consider as well that they are not facing restrictions as harsh as they would in P&P. Drow are in a good place. High level ones are usually quite successful and their magic resistance often helps them get the better on even higher level characters. There is no need to intervene and change the current balance.

Of ECL in general, it is successful in acting as a deterrent to limit unusual races. This is reason enough to keep as is. D&D is a game where classes and races are inherently different from each other. This automatically induces imbalances between those. These differences are quite fine. It allows for challenges of different levels. Playing an ECL race is one of those challenges at your disposal. To be embraced or not as you prefer. But ECL+2 is part of the drow deal, and here to stay, as is.

I don't think drow are SUPER weak, but you guys have already deviated from the source material when you feel it necessary, that's what the thread is about. You kinda contradict yourself though saying its not miserable but at the same time saying ECL stifles more people from seeking these races, no? But isnt that what the app is for? :P Just saying. More tongue in cheek than flaying you, of course.