[Subraces] Let's Take a Look at Drow ECL 2

[Revenant]

If it's so important to you that you get full xp benefit maybe an ECL race just isn't for you. There are plenty of races that don't have them. I don't really see the issue here. You definitely get what you apply for.

Since this is more or less the exact attitude I was talking about, I'll bite. I've played outcast/ECL races to high level. I will likely continue to do so. I knew what the penalties were, I accepted them, I played the characters. Just because people agreed to play the game under xyz circumstances don't mean that the circumstances are beyond reproach or improvement.

Although obviously not a perfect replication of our situation, an example would be if someone picks and sticks to a class that isn't balanced to provide a good player experience in an MMO. Maybe the class appeals to them for thematic reasons. It's not unreasonable for them to suggest improvements to that experience without anticipating a "well you should've just played a more fun class, you knew from the balance updates and forum topics that they weren't fun, so we won't consider any changes" in reply.

[McNastea]

So I sent more of my thoughts to Aprog and I'm wishing now I'd included them cause they're more pertinent than I thought they'd be.

First of all, wanting to discuss all this is totally fine by me. I enjoy it. If you wanna bring up any balance issue and discuss it please do, I think the worst that could happen is nothing and I find it interesting to read even if I don't end up responding. So if I came off as if I thought the topic itself was moot I apologize.

What I intended to say was that I just have what I think is a different attitude towards balance than many people might. I have played MMO's extensively and really hate the way they tend towards homogenization of classes. The freedom that NWN has in that regard is what has always pulled me back here, besides of course the fact that I've just never found rp even slightly comparing.

In addition, I get that you might love the idea of a concept and hate the way it's implemented. In retrospect it was probably pretty disingenious of me to suggest otherwise. I still do think though that applications weed out people that want it cause it's stronk and people who want it cause it's what thye want to portray with a character.

So at the end of the day, again, I do believe that the application system makes ECL's doable. I don't, however, think you shouldn't feel inclined to bring up issues you think there are in terms of balance. Regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

In this instance, I don't actually think there's such an issue with Drow that they need to have their ECL adjusted. Again, I think Aprog's suggestion of applying to increase your ECL above 20 is neat, but I honestly doubt that will ever come to pass as well.

I ramble a lot, and I tend toward arguing a point I feel rather than discussing. If that comes off as dismissive I get it. It's not what I mean though.

[Hathor]

Just my two cents. From the perspective of a player of a half-elf and half-Vistani player:

Any proposal that allows a Drow PC to sacrifice time/grinding in exchange for the myriad of benefits associated with their race is downright unfair. I don't have an opinion on ECL vs ECL 2, but I don't see how one could think Drow need to be able to achieve the same levels as everyone else while also enjoying the benefits of the race. When a race like half-elf exists which carries no real benefits and is simply an objectively weaker version of other races. If time and grinding can eventually remove ECL, then you are just providing a flat buff to the race in comparison to any non-ECL race. This way be better from an RP perspective, I won't argue that, but you can't argue that it's acceptable balance in a vacuum.

The end result of "paying" for benefits with time/grinding is that the race is simply better than everything else, because people have time and grinding and eventually that cost means nothing. You end up with Drow who have all the benefits of full levels with the buffs, while those of us who play half-elves may be scratching our heads wondering whether that was really necessary.

I don't wish less fun on Drow players. I think anti-fun solutions are leaned on too frequently in this server, the Vistani changes being a good example. What was once up to the player to RP out at a time convenient for them became a forced punishment.

If you want to get the benefits of playing the drow without any of the valid frustrations with ECL, then high feat investments for those benefits seems like a fair solution. Otherwise players with more time and pre-existing meta comps will be absurdly overpowered compared to those without.

I realize I'm rambling and not doing a good job of explaining my frustrations with some of these suggestions, so I apologize. One last attempt at clarifying my opinion:

In game design, time costs effectively nothing. Few make the choice not to enchant, for example, and instead accept the cost as part of eventually becoming optimal. Ideas such as "Sacrifice xp now for the ability to fully level later" are the equivalent of "no downside".

[Revenant]

It's fine - I probably came off a bit strong myself, which is never the intent. I'm definitely coming from a position where I see a lot of suggestions to somewhat improve things dismissed with a "well, you choose to participate in thing." The situation for Drow isn't that dire. It's just a lot easier to solve by any of the mentioned adjustments to ECL broadly or even just a -1 Bump than the situation of Outcasts as a whole.

[McNastea]

Well, I would argue that benefit of playing a non ECL (edit) RACE (not class) like half elf is that htey can reach lvl 20 whereas a drow can't

[Hathor]

Well, I would argue that benefit of playing a non ECL (edit) RACE (not class) like half elf is that htey can reach lvl 20 whereas a drow can't

That is my point.

Some of the suggestions were to implement a way of Drow being able to reach level 20.

[McNastea]

It's fine - I probably came off a bit strong myself, which is never the intent. I'm definitely coming from a position where I see a lot of suggestions to somewhat improve things dismissed with a "well, you choose to participate in thing." The situation for Drow isn't that dire. It's just a lot easier to solve by any of the mentioned adjustments to ECL broadly or even just a -1 Bump than the situation of Outcasts as a whole.

Totally understandable man, it can be frustrating to try and get a point across when it feels like everyone is brushing it off with something like "you should have known better".

That's not to say my opinion has changed really on this specifically. Just that I understand how my initial response was a bit flippant. I hope I've made those feelings more clear so you don't get the impression I'm just marginalizing your point of view. Like I said I'm pretty sure this thread actually fixed a problem there was in the drow subrace - if nothing else that's something.

Well, I would argue that benefit of playing a non ECL (edit) RACE (not class) like half elf is that htey can reach lvl 20 whereas a drow can't

I just made that point because it's one thing that I think I'd agree with you on and a point against the previoius post. I don't disagree with everything Halthor said, but specifically that point. There is an advantage to even half-elf over drow depending on what you're doing.

[Hathor]

Well, I would argue that benefit of playing a non ECL (edit) RACE (not class) like half elf is that htey can reach lvl 20 whereas a drow can't

I just made that point because it's one thing that I think I'd agree with you on and a point against the previoius post. I don't disagree with everything Halthor said, but specifically that point. There is an advantage to even half-elf over drow depending on what you're doing.
[/quote]

Would you like to talk about this point more then?

I agree that there is an advantage to playing (even) half-elf over drow depending on your perspective, due to being able to hit level 20. No disagreement there.

My point is that's the trade-off for the abilities drow gets, and if you remove the inability to get to level 20 you are removing there being any tradeoff. Time is not a cost, it's an inconvenience. Feats are costs, they affect the final build.

[Favee]

Speaking specifically on mechanics and balance, there are no racial benefits that can outweigh the ECL cost.  (Except maybe the Mul Regen.)

The loss of majority end-game spells for casters.
Lower cap on skills.  Two levels worth of skill points.
Missing an attribute point.
The BAB.
The Hit dice which matters against certain spells and effects.
Lower effective caster level to overcome resistance.
Missing major class endcaps or milestones.
As well as missing feats.

The content isn't so strict or difficult that a group needs minmaxed characters, but minmaxing is a massive part of PoTM.

A group would almost always take a level 20 half elf over a level 18 Drow. 

Playing an ECL character nearly requires minmaxing to stay remotely close to non ECL races.  At any point in their leveling.

My argument obviously ignoring the purpose of the server, which is roleplay.  Just speaking strictly on mechanics.

[Hathor]

Speaking specifically on mechanics and balance, there are no racial benefits that can outweigh the ECL cost.  (Except maybe the Mul Regen.)

The loss of majority end-game spells for casters.
Lower cap on skills.  Two levels worth of skill points.
Missing an attribute point.
The BAB.
The Hit dice which matters against certain spells and effects.
Lower effective caster level to overcome resistance.
Missing major class endcaps or milestones.
As well as missing feats.

The content isn't so strict or difficult that a group needs minmaxed characters, but minmaxing is a massive part of PoTM.

A group would almost always take a level 20 half elf over a level 18 Drow. 

Playing an ECL character nearly requires minmaxing to stay remotely close to non ECL races.  At any point in their leveling.

My argument obviously ignoring the purpose of the server, which is roleplay.  Just speaking strictly on mechanics.

Yes, a level 20 character is always better than a level 18 character.

And a level 20 character with all the benefits of Drow and no drawbacks is even more powerful.

You're trading one problem for an even bigger one.

[Favee]

Sure, I agree with that.  There isn't a perfect solution to the problems of ECL.  In its current form it's just a really really bad deal.

The modern way of fixing it would be crushed templates to lower power spikes and differences across the entire character race spectrum, but that's... Boring, and antithetical to what players of NWN want.

For me personally the biggest issues I've had with the system are...

Much, much slower and more difficult leveling. Doing content at your adjusted level is brutal.

Loss of known spells and capstones for classes. 

There are tons of fixes, but the experience OOCly shouldn't be so brutal at the very least.

[Hathor]

Sure, I agree with that.  There isn't a perfect solution to the problems of ECL.  In its current form it's just a really really bad deal.

The modern way of fixing it would be crushed templates to lower power spikes and differences across the entire character race spectrum, but that's... Boring, and antithetical to what players of NWN want.

For me personally the biggest issues I've had with the system are...

Much, much slower and more difficult leveling. Doing content at your adjusted level is brutal.

Loss of known spells and capstones for classes. 

There are tons of fixes, but the experience OOCly shouldn't be so brutal at the very least.

I agree, the experience shouldn't be OOCly unpleasant. I just feel this is the wrong solution.

[DaloLorn]

Someone made an interesting suggestion I hadn't heard before, back on the first page: What if ECL was removed, but the racial benefits that warranted that ECL were moved to feats? For instance, drow could have one feat to get their INT/CHA boost, and another feat to get their daily spells and SR. Tieflings could spend a feat to unlock... well, any ECL-worthy characteristics of their race. I guess elemental resistances and their daily spell. Mul could spend one to unlock Natural Healer, Regeneration and +2 CON, tanarukks could spend one feat on their fire resistance and AC; and another on their spell resistance and weapon proficiencies, etc.

[Derek Jeter]

Sorry, I just disagree completely.

If you're inclined to get your subrace and then watch people kill things to level then by all means, do that. I've done that on non ecl characters even.

My point is, if you care so much about your character concept that you would accept the ECl, then accept the ECL. I have played with people with ECL's before and they do just fine never doing anything past what we're currently working on. They do lag behind a bit, because they have an ECL - which means they are essentially not lagging behind at all.

If it's so important to you that you get full xp benefit maybe an ECL race just isn't for you. There are plenty of races that don't have them. I don't really see the issue here. You definitely get what you apply for.

Egh.
You don't get what you apply for, because several races have had ECL lowered and characters applied for before these changes all had their ECLs lowered.

I also dislike the 'suffer in the hole you fell in' mentality.
Everyone who plays a drow, plays them despite the hate, Ic -and- ooc, and the ECL truly making them weaker than an elf.

So lets look at something.
Duergar are now only ECL 1.
Tanarukk are now ECL 2... and much better.
Changes from the source material have already been done on the server, and to the ECL races -recently-.  And the server is impossible to compare reasonably to PnP. The engine is ancient and limited.
This also hearkens to something that has always bothered me, for a very long time here....

That somehow extra grueling pain OOC hearkens itself to Gothic Horror.

But the topic has drifted a bit.
The OP wasn't 'get rid of ECL'

The OP was, most of them have been looked at/gotten love, except drow. And people feel that way.

[BraveSirRobin]

ECL Races are as such, that it playing them is rarely worth it due to how feat progression is structured on the server. However, if they were reverted to be allowed to go to level 20, you will see the server's more skilled players aiming for them constantly, and even more complaints when PvP-centric level 20+ old guard players are playing immensely powerbuilt ECL characters and using them to drive the story in PvP. You'd see many more Tieflings, Drow, or Tanarukks becoming the gatekeepers for late-game PvP. And there's nothing wrong with that, either, so long as the PvP is legitimate; But what you'll also have, is those same characters dominating dungeons and so forth with stats that rival some MPC templates.

[bloodless]

Having their maximum levels capped is harsh for those who stick it out to get there - a minority of the active players at any given time, in my experience. But actually getting there with the exp penalties across every step of the way as well as kicking them out of their one good hub two levels early, is downright brutal. If the latter can be adjusted or removed without interfering with the former, I feel that the ECL system will be a lot less egregious to those who want to interact with it.

[BraveSirRobin]

Having their maximum levels capped is harsh for those who stick it out to get there - a minority of the active players at any given time, in my experience. But actually getting there with the exp penalties across every step of the way as well as kicking them out of their one good hub two levels early, is downright brutal. If the latter can be adjusted or removed without interfering with the former, I feel that the ECL system will be a lot less egregious to those who want to interact with it.

I'm of the opinion that the point is to discourage these subraces. Almost none of them are native to Ravenloft, anyways. If you really love playing as one, the option is there, but it's barred behind applications and intended to make certain there are no mechanical incentives. The entire system makes them unfun to play, but it's a dangerous double-edged sword. You make them more fun to play, people start grabbing them to use them for build purposes, because they're just better. ECL doesn't bother those who know how to grind past it. ECL classes excel in multi-class building, but rarely with a single class that is seeking its end-game feats, like a Barbarian, for instance. Can you imagine a level 20 Tanaruk Barbarian?

[bloodless]

Keeping them level capped already neuters much of the top end potential, making it essentially a perpetual Blind Drive to get there is just excessive if the system is designed, as I understand it, to balance out their powerful bonuses. If the point of the ECL system was to keep people away from certain things then fair enough. I was under the impression that that is why we have applications, however.

[BraveSirRobin]

That's the impression it gives me. There's no reason anyone would want to play an ECL race, except to just be it. They're mechanically inferior and difficult to level.

[Hathor]

Someone made an interesting suggestion I hadn't heard before, back on the first page: What if ECL was removed, but the racial benefits that warranted that ECL were moved to feats? For instance, drow could have one feat to get their INT/CHA boost, and another feat to get their daily spells and SR. Tieflings could spend a feat to unlock... well, any ECL-worthy characteristics of their race. I guess elemental resistances and their daily spell. Mul could spend one to unlock Natural Healer, Regeneration and +2 CON, tanarukks could spend one feat on their fire resistance and AC; and another on their spell resistance and weapon proficiencies, etc.

On the surface this is a good idea, but I don't think it is. Feat-starved classes versus feat-heavy classes will have major differences. Imagine if any race could take feats to raise their INT and CHA? That's so powerful! It would be an easy choice for plenty of classes, combine that with no ECL drawback and it's just a huge net positive.

I'd really like to see solutions to the ECL fun problem that aren't simply "make Drow an extremely powerful race".

That's the impression it gives me. There's no reason anyone would want to play an ECL race, except to just be it. They're mechanically inferior and difficult to level.

The same is true of half-elves, which is why I make the comparison. Yes a level 20 half-elf is stronger than a level 18 Drow, but in both cases you're choosing something for the RP rather than any mechanical benefit. I'd love to see both a little more balanced but Drow doesn't need to become a powerhouse or have all drawbacks removed. If you're going to do that for Drow then why can't other races get feats that give them INT and CHA? That's silly.

[Duayne]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But ECL seems to be a system to give certain races a huge bonus at low levels. Also, a majority of the arguments about the power of these races are assuming you hit level cap, which most don't. An ECL 2 at level 14 is stronger than a non ECL at level 14, and the XP requirement to get there is justified.

The main issue with ECL, especially the ECL 2 is the level 2 experience and getting off the ground. But once you get going, it's alright imo.

[zDark Shadowz]

That's the impression it gives me. There's no reason anyone would want to play an ECL race, except to just be it. They're mechanically inferior and difficult to level.

Depends how you game the modifiers.

A mul barbarian gets an extra strength modifier to replace the missing BAB, and +4 con would give them 38 extra HP and 2 fortitude, more than another D12 + con modifier for reaching level 20 would do. The extra modifiers also applying +1 and +2 to those related skills so they won't fall behind to a level 20 there either.

Plus regeneration. (Are those really its stats lol)

It's really only spellcasting books that have an issue with ECL. This is because spellbooks are exponentially broken as you acquire more levels. More of a fault of the spellbooks really.

High attribute point bonuses can be rebalanced in different ways to beat past the bonuses a level or two at the end would give if people are aware how point cost works, in some cases any negatives they had made completely redundant.

Now if spellbooks didnt give extra slots past level 18, whose tables are FAR easier to adjust than messing with multiple subraces, what would the power comparison be between ECL-2 and normal classes be then?

.. Theoretically discussed mind you, I like my extra slots plz dont actually remove them.

[Zyemeth]

By the logic of "they should be mechanically inferior" They should change the name from "Effective Character Level" to "Ineffective Character Level". Said characters should be able to compete with those a level or two higher and for some races (Drow being one of them) that never feels to be the case.

Someone earlier in this thread suggestion to remove the penalized xp but keep the lowered max cap for ECL characters and I think that would be a great middle ground. As it stands you are an invisible backpack until you reach level 14 (aka 16) with most ECL characters because you can't meaningfully contribute to overcoming content at the level that warrants experience for the character. All the non ECL allies you run with outlevel you and you get left in the dust leaving you with a very unrewarding gameplay experience. At least without the xp penalty you might get screwed later but you can still hang out and help your pals along the way and well... play the game?

[tom]

The only thing I'd suggest changed about ECL characters is maybe let them enchant at level 12-13 depending on their ECL since they get shoved out of Vallaki anyway at that level. ECL is kind of a weird thing because you trade early power boosts for feats, spell slots if you're a caster, an ASI, and level 18-20 class features for the early boosts, it also makes certain multiclasses tricky due to multiclass rules.

[Derek Jeter]

I think theres clearly some big misconception from those that havent played ecl 2 going around that these bonuses make them super powerful at low levels. They dont. They are even weaker ay low level. You are a level two that starts out needing to kill things a level 4 has to kill. You essentially have to skip the beetle cave. It is not a big power boost at low levels either.