Druid Spot adjustments - Hawk's Vision, Cougar Vision

[PlatointheCave]

I'd encourage those commenting here to research the actual values and effects.

I noticed bloodless talking about environmental factors.

You can see all of them here:

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Spot

The noteworthy ones are:

+5 to hide roll if hider is still. This is negatived by the -5 to hide roll if spotter is also standing still.

The only other "proximity" related factors are:

1. +5 to DC if stealther is behind the detector. There is nothing to do with proximity. There's a malus associated with inclement weather but even with that the spotter can spot someone at great distances no problem.

2. +5 DC at night if you don't have darkvision or true seeing or a light source. Every druid has TS and NV.

3. Broken LoS negates spot. This is when you see others go transparent around corners. Try utilising it some time on our server and you'll see how rarely it does this, even with placeables around.

You categorically do not need to be "right infront" of a Druid to be spotted. You need to be onscreen and not behind a building. Rocks, trees, shacks, stands, signs, book cases none of that matters. Distance does not matter for spot at all.

Additionally, aprog just beat me to throwing out the numbers using only cheap, widely available gear. It still crushes stealthers and disguisers because of how big the Druid numbers are.

It can be frustrating to discuss this and see people saying a lot of things confidently without looking into it, especially when so much math has been done to make it easier.

[APorg]

It's funny because I'm usually on the other side of the argument, reminding people of how bloody difficult and expensive it is to kit up a Spotter. Well, not with Druids.

[zDark Shadowz]

Can you -5 spot your calculations since the goggles of seeing (I assume is referenced) is a metal helmet? Or is there a leather/cloth goggle of spot out there I havent found?

The lvl 19 druid 42 spot I quoted was just bad math I suppose. 22 ranks + 9 modifier (28 wisdom after insight) + true seeing 9 + lodestar ring sits her on 42 currently, she's not lvl 20 and I dont have any of the other spot items from regular play. Availability and wealth just hasnt dropped in her lap like that.

31 spot before item/spell skill bonus and if I had gear that worked (2 rings +10, +4 amulet, +9 true seeing +10 insight potion, +5 cane is 38 skill, requiring cougars and hawks vision to barely finish off the +50 bonus. Is the spy glass +3 a mainhand or offhand item?

I dont consider spamming insight and feats to be passive compared to hour and turn duration stealth scrolls and potions that allow sneaks to finish off their own stealth scores to +50 in hide/ms, but thats just an opinion.

Druids only activate their abilities when their suspicions have been aroused, if you're a good sneak you haven't done that.

Sneaks have usually already finished and told their stories by level 20, if someone playing a druid normally just doesnt get the gear before level 20 whats the point? Can't detect even if I had those two feats.

[APorg]

Can you -5 spot your calculations since the goggles of seeing (I assume is referenced) is a metal helmet? Or is there a leather/cloth goggle of spot out there I havent found?

There is a +5 spot helm other than the Goggles of Seeing, yes. I won't name it because FOIC. It is fairly rare, I think I've seen two drop in many years. Still, druids don't entirely need it to hit cap -- although if they do get one, they can easily hit cap.

Is the spy glass +3 a mainhand or offhand item?

Offhand item.  You can dualwield them, amusingly.

I dont consider spamming insight and feats to be passive compared to hour and turn duration stealth scrolls and potions that allow sneaks to finish off their own stealth scores to +50 in hide/ms, but thats just an opinion.

You're right about Insight, that's not spammable unless the detector is burning money. But the feats aren't spammed because they last hours, they don't need to be.

Druids only activate their abilities when their suspicions have been aroused, if you're a good sneak you haven't done that.

I really wish this were true, but there's no reason for a Druid not to activate most of their Spot buffs all the time. There's no real cost.

[Vissy]

I still don't see what the problem is. A druid walking along with +12 to their Spot score isn't going to passively spot a middling, budget stealther who is trying to stealth.

[zDark Shadowz]

Yeah, at this point its not a battle of who has what feats, the ability to sneak or spot is about who is level 20 AND wealthier.

At that point just let the high level people flaunt their wealth against each other. If sneaks are completely undetectable *to everyone else* then sneaks need to be nerfed or other classes need to be buffed.

Not everyone rocks the owls insight wisdom or true seeing spell to make up the other +5 and +10 by lvl 20 spot the other spotters are missing.

[bloodless]

The particulars of spotting were already pointed out to me earlier in the thread, which is why I haven't gone back to that well since. I do appreciate the insight. The bonus that the feats give is powerful, there's no doubt about it, however, I still don't see it as game breaking when taken as part of the whole - Owl's Insight is a 5th level spell with a duration of Hour+Turns/Level, C&C has the same duration and both need to be renewed to keep high scores up even if the feats don't require it. Insight has to be taken as a potion and its duration is even less, with 1 Turn + Rounds/Level.

If Disguise doesn't perform, we should see that it is addressed - something I have since spoken to Hathor in privately and kept our discussion outside this thread so as to not take attention away from its specific purpose. Increasing the duration of the Disguise Kit item's effect is something that comes off the top of my head as a suggestion, or the inclusion of similar effects and bringing its feats up to parity with those for stealth and detection.

[Evendur]

From what I have seen it takes a lot of dedication for both Spotters and Stealthers to get to the numbers where they are competitive, with the one who is warded for spot/stealth (while the other is not) usually winning. And this feels right and very balanced!

If the above numbers are correct, then all of this is completely broken by Druids and not just by a bit.

Yes the spot gear is expensive too, but so is the stealth gear. But more importantly, the compared numbers are high lvl. At lvl 17+ that gear would most likely have been found already even without buying it, but what is still left is the feats.

If a Druid can get to 42 spot without feats already, it means they get to beat the stealth of other characters without any effort put into their characters builds to do so, while the stealther will have taken considerable efforts/feats to get to a high stealth value, while also usually being of a class with low feats already rouges/rangers.
In other words if someone wants to play a stealther and has to spend the majority of points and feats to get there, its not fair for Druids to just casually break that. And they do!

or in short:
A Druid with zero effort can always spot any character that has used significant build points/feats to become a stealther. This does not feel fair! It feels like a bad joke.

I dont think that only the duration of the spot buffs should be reduced (to minutes not hours too) but rather the spot buffs themselves need to be cut significantly.
From my perspective I'm not even sure why this is discussed. The Druid spot is so obviously overpowered that I cant even see the need to discuss this.

However it will be solved, to have a balances stealth/spot game where the character build efforts are considered, it needs significant changes and not just to the duration of buffs

[Hathor]

Yeah, at this point its not a battle of who has what feats, the ability to sneak or spot is about who is level 20 AND wealthier.

At that point just let the high level people flaunt their wealth against each other. If sneaks are completely undetectable *to everyone else* then sneaks need to be nerfed or other classes need to be buffed.

Not everyone rocks the owls insight wisdom or true seeing spell to make up the other +5 and +10 by lvl 20 spot the other spotters are missing.

I'm sorry but this is patently untrue. A BiS stealther can be easily beaten by a Druid with less investment. A BiS Disguiser doesn't have a chance.

[zDark Shadowz]

How much do you want to drop those feats by so that they can still hit the +50 cap after acquiring and equipping every item and using an insight potion?

10 rings +5 helmet +5 cane +4 amulet + 10 insight + 10 true seeing is 44 spot, the two feats only benefit them a further 6. Not including the +3 spyglass!!

The feats literally only save money. Thats it.

[PlatointheCave]

I still don't see what the problem is. A druid walking along with +12 to their Spot score isn't going to passively spot a middling, budget stealther who is trying to stealth.

Imagine a level 10 druid v a level 10 rogue:

Rogue: Mouse Hood (4) + Mouse Cloak (4) + Rogue's Garb (3) + DeepShadowStrikes (6) + Ring of Hiding (6) + Amulet of Mask (3) + 13 (skillpoints) + 5 (SF hide, stealthy) + 4 (dex mod)

= 48

Druid:

Helmet (5) + Amulet (4) + rings (budget 3 each, total 6) + 13 SP + 5 (SF spot, alertness) + 5 (wis mod) + 2 (owl's insight at CL 10) + 12 (wildshape feats)

= 52

The druid instantly spots the stealther in their budget gear if wearing equally budget gear. The Druid can afford to keep these buffs up for 11 IG hours before needing to rest and rebuff.

Let's imagine the druid didn't take the basice spot feats of SF spot and alertness.

They hit 47.

One point less than the stealther. How does that affect detection in practice?

A check is rolled once a round. It's rapidly updated with environmental modifiers but the actual roll is 1d20.

Each round you roll a d20 and add your score. So the stealther rolls and adds 48. The detector rolls and adds 47.

So every round there's a 95% chance to be detected. That hits 100% if the stealther happens to be trying to walk past the Druid.

You'll note that even without that 12 the difference is 36 to 47. To be unable to be detected by the spotter you actually need to hit a baseline hide value that is 19 points higher than the spotter. That 36 spot will still pop a stealther who hits 54 hide.

I haven't even factored in the 15 points you get from popping an insight and clairvoyance potion. I'm being very generous with my numbers here, too.

It is simply this: ordinarily a detector will always catch a stealther using their short term buffs. But wont catch a buffed stealther unless they vastly overlevel them. This seems quite fair and balanced to me. Spot will always beat hide if you go all out, but you can't just catch every stealther that enters your field of view.

Druid just catches everything with minimal gear and investment because of its unique combination of governing attribute, getting spot as a class skill on this server, spot and wisdom buffs on tap and the new feats. If the new feats lasted rounds, Druid would still be the premier spotter. But they'd have to try to spot people.

[zDark Shadowz]

How much do you want to drop those feats by so that they can still hit the +50 cap after acquiring and equipping every item and using an insight potion?

10 rings +5 helmet +5 cane +4 amulet + 10 insight + 10 true seeing is 44 spot, the two feats only benefit them a further 6. Not including the +3 spyglass!!

The feats literally only save money. Thats it.

Anyways thanks for making me do math now that I know I'm only capped in my spot not by my lack of having hawks vision and cougars but by the equipment I'm missing. Dont think I need two feats for a +3 improvement from 47 to 50... but itd definitely save me money I guess.

Still feel sorry for the folk who dont get the owls insight and true seeing though.

[Duayne]

I still don't see what the problem is. A druid walking along with +12 to their Spot score isn't going to passively spot a middling, budget stealther who is trying to stealth.

A check is rolled once a round. It's rapidly updated with environmental modifiers but the actual roll is 1d20.

Each round you roll a d20 and add your score. So the stealther rolls and adds 48. The detector rolls and adds 47.

So every round there's a 95% chance to be detected. That hits 100% if the stealther happens to be trying to walk past the Druid.

    Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
    NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
    Creatures roll for hide/move silently/spot/listen: every 6 seconds

Players attempt to detect things 5 times a second, this includes other players. This means 30 checks a round. If detection lands within say, 15 of the max stealth roll. You have an extremely high chance to see them within 6 seconds of them being within LoS.

Once a detection stat gets into the range of detecting the stealther, it's already game over for them.

[Hathor]

How much do you want to drop those feats by so that they can still hit the +50 cap after acquiring and equipping every item and using an insight potion?

10 rings +5 helmet +5 cane +4 amulet + 10 insight + 10 true seeing is 44 spot, the two feats only benefit them a further 6. Not including the +3 spyglass!!

The feats literally only save money. Thats it.

This was my suggestion:

Can these feats be either toned down in power/duration, or can mirrored feats be created which allow others to have a chance against them? As Plato puts it, a druid can simply stroll by and end a character.

Lowering duration to turns/level is one solution, but as has been pointed out, it's 2-4 feats worth of value in one feat.

My suggestion? Remove the combat feats and lower the duration to something reasonable like turns/level.

If someone wants PBS, surely they can just take PBS or wear the easily available gear that provides it.

[tom]

I think changing the spot feats that druids get from hours per level to turns per level would be good enough. Even with the argument that Hawks vision has combat utility you'll end up losing the combat utility when you'd ordinarily lose all your other buffs and need to rest.

[APorg]

The feats literally only save money. Thats it.

Well, money and rare drops. The latter is often the bigger bottleneck. When we're discussing top grade detectors we're usually talking about an elite few who can gather up multiple high quality Spot items. Druids are the exception because they can be top grade detectors with an investment of 2 feats, 23 Skill ranks, potions, and just minor Spot gear.

So a Druid can be a top rate Spotter and their only real bottleneck is their level. All other Spotters must work hard to get the gear, a process that may take IRL years. Years, plural.

[PlatointheCave]

I still don't see what the problem is. A druid walking along with +12 to their Spot score isn't going to passively spot a middling, budget stealther who is trying to stealth.

A check is rolled once a round. It's rapidly updated with environmental modifiers but the actual roll is 1d20.

Each round you roll a d20 and add your score. So the stealther rolls and adds 48. The detector rolls and adds 47.

So every round there's a 95% chance to be detected. That hits 100% if the stealther happens to be trying to walk past the Druid.

    Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
    NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
    Creatures roll for hide/move silently/spot/listen: every 6 seconds

Players attempt to detect things 5 times a second, this includes other players. This means 30 checks a round. If detection lands within say, 15 of the max stealth roll. You have an extremely high chance to see them within 6 seconds of them being within LoS.

Once a detection stat gets into the range of detecting the stealther, it's already game over for them.

This is a common myth, actually, from a missreading of the engine. The "detect" that is 5 times a second is updating the rolled spot for changing conditions.

So for example: you roll spot round 1. I am behind you and get a +5.

I move to in front of you. That will be updated during one of those checks that occurs 5 times a second. Same with if you add a buff. The raw ROLL does not change until the next 6 second roll.

[zDark Shadowz]

In anycaseva druid can +47 spot without the feats. Any change wont actually matter either way.

[Hathor]

In anycaseva druid can +47 spot without the feats. Any change wont actually matter either way.

So you don't mind its being reduced in power?

[bloodless]

On the subject of the non-metal +5 helmet being discussed. If it is a rare item as previously mentioned (I have yet to see such an item for myself), it should probably not be in the discussion for level 10s. Minor point but it seemed worth bringing up all the same.

[PlatointheCave]

Without wishing to just publish a list of the loot tables I've built up as that seems inappropriate to spoil here, it's less common than eagle's helm but much more common than spot sticks or seeing eyes rings. Your local rogue should begin having a good chance to find them around level 8.

[zDark Shadowz]

Never seen it on my lvl 17 rogue multiclass. Found 1 stick though.

[Dardonas]

In anycaseva druid can +47 spot without the feats. Any change wont actually matter either way.

I've seen stealthers hit numbers above 70, I've seen them hit scores above 80, and I'm sure it's possible to get well over that as other races, not factoring the roll.  It certainly does matter in the case of whether someone is actively spotting someone or if a druid is just walking or idling around in detect mode (or has it for free as an elf/ranger), and just happens upon anyone up to anything revolving around disguises or stealth.

I think the argument a lot of people have, including myself, is that getting two feats that are worth 4 spot feats for everyone else, as spells with such a long duration that they might as well be permanent.

I think that actively trying to spot someone should easily beat out stealth.  Actively spotting someone I'd define as taking any sort of buffs, swapping out your cane and rings to have those on. Passively spotting is just standing in either detect mode, or having it for free as an elf/ranger, it's low risk and high reward.  I don't think that passively having spot and detect mode out should be enough to catch someone, from a philosophical point of view.  And currently, Druids have two buffs that last from anywhere from 15-21 hours in-game add to this passive, no risk spot.  I'd highly lean on making the buffs last 1 turn + 1 round / Druid level.

[zDark Shadowz]

In anycaseva druid can +47 spot without the feats. Any change wont actually matter either way.

So you don't mind its being reduced in power?

Why make a change whose only effect is one class pays money?

Its just a war of wealth and druids don't pay as much if they spend two feats and keep them active.

What is really annoying are sneaks thay go ahead of a druids party when the party was there first and take all the loot.

This happened 7+ times in one dungeon, having hawk or cougar active may have stopped that if I had taken them, in which case the duration and amount is warranted.

[Vissy]

I still don't see what the problem is. A druid walking along with +12 to their Spot score isn't going to passively spot a middling, budget stealther who is trying to stealth.

Imagine a level 10 druid v a level 10 rogue:

Rogue: Mouse Hood (4) + Mouse Cloak (4) + Rogue's Garb (3) + DeepShadowStrikes (6) + Ring of Hiding (6) + Amulet of Mask (3) + 13 (skillpoints) + 5 (SF hide, stealthy) + 4 (dex mod)

= 48

Druid:

Helmet (5) + Amulet (4) + rings (budget 3 each, total 6) + 13 SP + 5 (SF spot, alertness) + 5 (wis mod) + 2 (owl's insight at CL 10) + 12 (wildshape feats)

= 52

The druid instantly spots the stealther in their budget gear if wearing equally budget gear. The Druid can afford to keep these buffs up for 11 IG hours before needing to rest and rebuff.

Let's imagine the druid didn't take the basice spot feats of SF spot and alertness.

They hit 47.

One point less than the stealther. How does that affect detection in practice?

A check is rolled once a round. It's rapidly updated with environmental modifiers but the actual roll is 1d20.

Each round you roll a d20 and add your score. So the stealther rolls and adds 48. The detector rolls and adds 47.

So every round there's a 95% chance to be detected. That hits 100% if the stealther happens to be trying to walk past the Druid.

You'll note that even without that 12 the difference is 36 to 47. To be unable to be detected by the spotter you actually need to hit a baseline hide value that is 19 points higher than the spotter. That 36 spot will still pop a stealther who hits 54 hide.

I haven't even factored in the 15 points you get from popping an insight and clairvoyance potion. I'm being very generous with my numbers here, too.

It is simply this: ordinarily a detector will always catch a stealther using their short term buffs. But wont catch a buffed stealther unless they vastly overlevel them. This seems quite fair and balanced to me. Spot will always beat hide if you go all out, but you can't just catch every stealther that enters your field of view.

Druid just catches everything with minimal gear and investment because of its unique combination of governing attribute, getting spot as a class skill on this server, spot and wisdom buffs on tap and the new feats. If the new feats lasted rounds, Druid would still be the premier spotter. But they'd have to try to spot people.

A druid isn't likely to be wearing all of their spot gear at once, as opposed to a stealthing character wearing specifically stealth gear.

And these "budget" options aren't really budget.

- The helmet is a very rare drop that will probably run a druid millions to buy if not found.

- The rings aren't super common drops unless you grind dungeons; I have never had two of those rings by level 10, let alone even found two, or had the money to get two on top of all of my other gear. It's better to assume that a level 10 character has maybe one ring like that.

- You won't be wearing the amulet actively at all times, because it has a rather dire downside.

On top of that, Camouflage and Tiptoeing are very easy to acquire cheaply. Those add +10 to their stealth checks. And "Skill Focus: Spot" and "Alertness" are feats I have never picked on any single character myself - I assume others do, but I wouldn't.

Those alone would drop the Druid's spot value from 52 to 39, and increase the rogue's stealth check from 48 to 58.

In other words: it's not so clear-cut as you make it out to be. I still do not see an issue with any of this.