Druid Spot adjustments - Hawk's Vision, Cougar Vision

[Hathor]

Referencing Platos' wonderful post here.

Final Numbers Detectors:

Druid (Passive, didn't take all available feats or max wis): 79 (80-99)

Other Detector (Passive, took all available feats): 67 (68-87)

Druid (Active, didn't take all availabe feats of max wis): 91 (92-111)

Other Detector (Active, took all available feats): 77 (78-97)

Stealther (Best Case): 87 (88-107)

Disguiser (Estimated Best case): 84 (85-104)

Minor note that as discussed the Disguiser numbers are actually lower than the best case, 5-10 points lower. Edit: Additionally versus Disguise, you can also take Recognize Imposter for another +4 versus disguises if you really feel the need.

Plato references some feats in the calculation:

+ 10 (true seeing) + 5 (goggle helm) + 10 (rings) + 4 (amulet) + 5 (cane) + 8 (hawk's vision) + 4 (Cougar Vision) = 46/50 cap. More if they add a spy glass.

The Hawk and Cougar vision are what I wish to discuss. Not that kind of Cougar Vision, calm down.

Descriptions of the feats:

Prerequisite: Wild Shape, Spot 2 ranks.
Specifics: The druid can see in the dark like a cat. He may spend one of his wild shape uses to gain low-light vision and a +4 bonus to Spot for a number of hours equal to his druid level.

Prerequisite: Wild Shape, Spot 4 ranks.
Specifics: The druid can improve his visual acuity. He may spend one of his wild shape uses to gain Point Blank Shot and a +8 bonus to Spot for a number of hours equal to his druid level.

These feats seem inappropriate for the low level of investment, high level of bonus, and extremely long duration. Given that Druids can and do integrate into cities, there isn't an RP penalty either. There doesn't appear to be anything similar for stealthers or disguisers to take.

Additionally, I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the two feats count towards the cap.

Can these feats be either toned down in power/duration, or can mirrored feats be created which allow others to have a chance against them? As Plato puts it, a druid can simply stroll by and end a character.

[PlatointheCave]

I am naturally in full support of Druid's power in spot being toned down. A duration reduction would bring their abilities more in line with comparable abilities.

[APorg]

I agree with the sentiment, Druids have such an advantage that it's basically a two tier race: Druids at S tier, then everyone else, even the new Beguilers, at best at A tier.

[Dardonas]

One hour + 1 turn / Druid level seems like a good way to handle it.  Or, if we want to support a more active way about using spot, limiting it to 1 turn + 1 round / Druid level.

[herkles]

I am in supportive of this as well.

[Hathor]

One hour + 1 turn / Druid level seems like a good way to handle it.  Or, if we want to support a more active way about using spot, limiting it to 1 turn + 1 round / Druid level.

Even this is quite strong as it still beats out everything else without much required investment beyond the feats themselves. I'd support this, plus mirrored feats of some sort.

[Lexica]

I personally also agree with adjusting the duration down. Druids are already extremely strong in multiple areas, and bringing their detection capabilities down to 'still the best, but they need to press a couple buttons to be sure' makes sense, compared to even the theoretical maximum capability stealther (which mostly doesn't exist in reality) automatically being spotted.

[APorg]

Mirrored Feats are a bad idea; it's just creating more overpowered feats and baking in the problem -- suddenly the only people who have much of a chance of being effective Spotters are Druids.

[MAB77]

Is there really an issue to address here? Seems to me it's the old stealther vs spotter thread again. Theme wise it makes perfect sense to me that druids would have access to acute senses abilities.

It still takes quite the investment for a druid to reach that kind of spot level. They still need to activate powers, invest in certain feats and skills in lieu of more profitable ones (like stealth for instance, something druids can also be good at instead of spotting), and to use certain items to the detriment of others. Very few actually go down that route. Those that do will not often have it all upped to that level all the time, nor will they always be around you to see you sneak. Most of the time this will not even inconvenience a dedicated stealther. At the same time it is a very good thing that no matter how good (the vastly more numerous) stealthers can be, there is always the *possibility* that someone may still be good enough to spot you. It forces stealthers to be wiser in their actions. Beside a good spotter can only surprise you once, once you know they can spot you it's easy for you to adjust your roleplay around those. And let's be frank. RP is MUCH funnier when caught red handed sneaking.

One player being able to reliably spot a stealther, isn't at all invalidating the skills of said stealther most of the time.

[Dardonas]

Is there really an issue to address here? Seems to me it's the old stealther vs spotter thread again. Theme wise it makes perfect sense to me that druids would have access to acute senses abilities.

It still takes quite the investment for a druid to reach that kind of spot level. They still need to activate powers, invest in certain feats and skills in lieu of more profitable ones (like stealth for instance, something druids can also be good at instead of spotting), and to use certain items to the detriment of others. Very few actually go down that route. Those that do will not often have it all upped to that level all the time, nor will they always be around you to see you sneak. Most of the time this will not even inconvenience a dedicated stealther. At the same time it is a very good thing that no matter how good (the vastly more numerous) stealthers can be, there is always the *possibility* that someone may still be good enough to spot you. It forces stealthers to be wiser in their actions. Beside a good spotter can only surprise you once, once you know they can spot you it's easy for you to adjust your roleplay around those. And let's be frank. RP is MUCH funnier when caught red handed sneaking.

One player being able to reliably spot a stealther, isn't at all invalidating the skills of said stealther most of the time.

I think the issue is that it's just essentially a permanent spot buff.  When you start getting to where your buffs last for 5 hours or more since it lasts longer than the rest timer itself, you always have the buff active.  At higher levels, it's just something you ward up and throw on top and it lasts for close to a whole in-game day.

[APorg]

Yeah, there's no real strategy to it.  Boom, you click the buttons and your Druid gets +12 Spot until they deign to rest.  Heck, the duration on those buffs will outlast Extended True Seeing/C&C.

[Hathor]

Mirrored Feats are a bad idea; it's just creating more overpowered feats and baking in the problem -- suddenly the only people who have much of a chance of being effective Spotters are Druids.

I may be unclear what I mean by mirrored feats. I mean that similar feats, both for spotters/listeners and stealthers/disguisers, be made available.

That is a lot of course...in my opinion these feats shouldn't exist at all in their current state, but they do, so they at least shouldn't be so overwhelmingly and singularly powerful without a counter or similar option.

In addition to lower duration, perhaps the feats could require actually wild-shaping or something? It seems odd that they are based on wildshape but don't have any visible effect, allowing Druids to stealth-use these.

To respond to MAB:

One player being able to reliably spot a stealther, isn't at all invalidating the skills of said stealther most of the time.

That's not the case at all when you consider users of Disguise, who can't really infiltrate anywhere there might be a Druid. Including cities.

Seems to me it's the old stealther vs spotter thread again.

I don't think this is the case at all. Just because the topic has generally been hashed by many people does not mean there cannot be a place where the balance is off.

It is being pointed out that druids have access to wildly higher Detect scores than anyone can beat, and that those Detect scores last for extremely long amounts of time.

And let's be frank. RP is MUCH funnier when caught red handed sneaking.

It doesn't feel very fun to have no chance at all. There's specially little chance of success as a disguiser given the bugs + the ability of a Druid to easily destroy any chance at success.

At the same time it is a very good thing that no matter how good (the vastly more numerous) stealthers can be, there is always the *possibility* that someone may still be good enough to spot you. It forces stealthers to be wiser in their actions.

I agree, but look at the numbers. We're not talking about a possibility that someone can be good enough to spot you. We're talking about no chance for disguisers, and little chance for stealthers.

It's not fair or fun and I can't imagine there are many who think it is.

[MAB77]

A logic that can be applied to various other features of the game. I understand what you say, and do not dispute the argument behind the lack of strategy, but I do not see it as a problem any worse than any other extended duration buffs. Consider the cost of what the player sacrificed to achieve that. In the long run, a feat that will help a player deal more damage or better defend himself will always be way more useful than the extremely occasional time you're at the right place and time to spot a sneaker meaning you harm.

[Hathor]

A logic that can be applied to various other features of the game. I understand what you say, and do not dispute the argument behind the lack of strategy, but I do not see it as a problem any worse than any other extended duration buffs. Consider the cost of what the player sacrificed to achieve that. In the long run, a feat that will help a player deal more damage or better defend himself will always be way more useful than the extremely occasional time you're at the right place and time to spot a sneaker meaning you harm.

Thank you for your responses.

What about the cost associated with investing in the opposing skills?

Especially what about the costs associated with investing in Disguise, which due to bugs does not stand a chance against dedicated spotters and especially druids?

If it's not an issue that these feats exist in their current state why would it be an issue that similar feats exist to spread the love?

As it stands, investing in Disguise is a major disappointment as it seems only half-supported while feats were added to make it easier to defeat a skill that bugs cause to be easier to beat.

[Chaoshawk]

As the druid player who breaks everyone's disguise and can see everyone, I support a nerf in Druid's insane spot whether it is the duration or in removing cougar's and/or hawk's vision. Even without those with potions of insight and clairvoyance and wisdom, I can still beat most people with a full set of spot gear. Owl's insight alone is solid. There are certainly invisible penalties with weather, but it is easier to overcome. Conversely, I think the addition of more stealth feats would push the balance back. Not many druids actually invest fully in spot surprisingly or have good gear, but I think at the minimum a nerf in duration will force a druid to decide when to utilize these skills and therefore make passive spotting less likely and more in line with cleric/wizard who have great spot despite cross classing to reach the same numbers.

[APorg]

Consider the cost of what the player sacrificed to achieve that. In the long run, a feat that will help a player deal more damage or better defend himself will always be way more useful than the extremely occasional time you're at the right place and time to spot a sneaker meaning you harm.

Spot is a PvP skill that goes beyond saving you from a sneaker meaning you harm. It means spotting shenanigans in all kinds of plot-based or social PvP, be it seeing through someone's disguise or seeing someone sneaking past. It is a huge asset in social PvP.

Yes, it costs two feats. But given that detectors are willing to spend Feats on Blooded, Alertness, or Sharp Eyes for +2 a pop, I wouldn't call two feats giving +12 a "sacrifice" per se. I'd call it very efficient alternative investment.

Comparing them with extended buffs, I feel, is also missing the point: they stack with those extended buffs. A druid isn't choosing between +15 from True Seeing+C&C or +12 from Cougar/Hawk Vision, he's looking at +27 from both. This is on a class that already gets in class Spot, high Wisdom, and Owl's Insight. It all compounds into a giant "I Win" combo that will automatically win a whole slew of social PvPs.

[Revenant]

A logic that can be applied to various other features of the game. I understand what you say, and do not dispute the argument behind the lack of strategy, but I do not see it as a problem any worse than any other extended duration buffs. Consider the cost of what the player sacrificed to achieve that. In the long run, a feat that will help a player deal more damage or better defend himself will always be way more useful than the extremely occasional time you're at the right place and time to spot a sneaker meaning you harm.

Druids do not have a problem taking enough elemental essences and polar bear form alongside the very small dip to scoop up the spotting feats. If your concern is defending yourself against players, I would argue that it is far more important to have those detection feats than something allowing you to deal more damage; in the broad majority of cases, detecting a stealther before they've engaged completely and utterly nullifies their threat. If you can't just kill them with one of your incredibly potent spells, you can easily escape.

Druids are not uncommon. They're a flexible archetype, showing up everywhere from advisors for (and sometimes members of) nobility to enforcers for sewer gangs. As someone who actually plays a dedicated stealther, he burns three feats and thousands of gold into the consumables required to have an opportunity to not be made by regular geared detectors and has been almost routinely mocked by token druids with a cheeky "I can see you". Those weren't even in moments where the stakes were high - those were casual strolls through safe areas, with the druid not putting in any particular effort.

I don't see how it makes RP "funnier" to completely invalidate someone else's specialization. At least to completely invalidate other mundane melees, fighters require an incredibly specific stat spread, high level, and an investment of six to ten feats. Druids do it with two. I might have (slightly) less issue with it if the spot gear wasn't so excessively more scarce than the listen gear, but even if a run of the mill spotter could fully equip themselves the gulf would still be frankly ridiculous. It's more than a Bard's ability to Listen, curse song notwithstanding. As Aprog says, all of their advantages stack into a gigantic "I Win" button for Spot that almost nobody else has anything comparable to.

[tylernwn]

Honestly these feats only exist to be taken if you want insane spot checks, which many players wont want. I think they are fine given the number of feats/resources you have to spend to get them active. Yes I can understand the frustration for pure stealthers, but its pretty much the same situation the other way around for anyone that is not a druid with all these feats/items/etc

[zDark Shadowz]

My lvl 19 druid has like 42 spot without any spot feats after buffing and dumping all its ranks into it, its nowhere near enough and I doubt its going to ever be high enough since-

A; Im not an elf so its usually at half score and half dice

B; theres a +50 spot cap so everyone gets capped out to the same point anyway.

Its just a matter of who hits what first. Drink an insight potion, you can match up to the druids' cap. Wis vs Dex favours dex due to stealth distance and object bonuses which people always forget.

Stealth already outequips in gear, more so if you arent an elf since a +5 ring slot is sacrificed for keen senses. The hawks and cougars vision counts toward the +50 spot cap, with rogues just buying or making camoflage and lightstep to gain and hit their +50 caps easily. Theyre not even spending feats to get the extra high stealth scores, on top.of the feats they do get like urban stealth & woodland stride.

[The Iron Heretic]

I stand with the OP.

[Chaoshawk]

My lvl 19 druid has like 42 spot without any spot feats after buffing and dumping all its ranks into it, its nowhere near enough and I doubt its going to ever be high enough since-

A; Im not an elf so its usually at half score and half dice

B; theres a +50 spot cap so everyone gets capped out to the same point anyway.

Its just a matter of who hits what first. Drink an insight potion, you can match up to the druids' cap. Wis vs Dex favours dex due to stealth distance and object bonuses which people always forget.

Stealth already outequips in gear, more so if you arent an elf since a +5 ring slot is sacrificed for keen senses. The hawks and cougars vision counts toward the +50 spot cap, with rogues just buying or making camoflage and lightstep to gain and hit their +50 caps easily. Theyre not even spending feats to get the extra high stealth scores, on top.of the feats they do get like urban stealth & woodland stride.

Something has gone wrong here because the math in the OP is correct.

[slash]

As the person who complains about detection not being accessible enough every time a stealth vs detection thread pops up, I support this proposed change. The whole "druids have better senses" argument doesn't really make much sense when there are people who can dab into the shadow realm - I don't think cougars hunt shadows much.

With that said, I think a concession could be that druids using these abilities only receive the bonuses while shapechanged into an animal. At the very least this would add some form of caveat to this really powerful combo of abilities, and it would be interesting and allow for at least a small counter-strategy option for stealthers (I dunno about the whole Core, but Vallaki Garda and Dementlieuese Gendarmes alike don't seem to care much for hulking wild beasts walking around near civilization).

[Vissy]

I think it's fine as is. My druid can get her spot up to around 60-70-ish, and that's only if I have -all- of the buffs I can think of, and some of them are limited in number.

There are plenty of stealthers who can beat that, and plenty more of them than there are of me.

[Duayne]

I think it's fine as is. My druid can get her spot up to around 60-70-ish, and that's only if I have -all- of the buffs I can think of, and some of them are limited in number.

There are plenty of stealthers who can beat that, and plenty more of them than there are of me.

Then you are not using gear/have points invested into spot. Druids can reach unbeatable numbers agaisnt stealth quite easily if they are invested. The math included at the beginning is correct.

[Vissy]

So? I think it's perfectly fine for some very few druids to have high spot scores that you can't beat. The full investment takes a few feats, which you -could- use for things like Weapon Finesse, Oaken Resilience / Elephant's Skin, Extra Wild Shape and other things like that. These druids are very few and far between.