Decrease the time between exhaustion checks or come up with better system?

[EO]

My only problem with that, is that it means you don't get much of a warning or understanding of how your exhaustion meter works. Like a 10 CON Barb would have 30 Exhaustion limit, and a 10 CON Bard would have 20. That's not really clearly explained any where, I don't think.

Does it need to be? It's exhaustion.

[Khornite]

My only problem with that, is that it means you don't get much of a warning or understanding of how your exhaustion meter works. Like a 10 CON Barb would have 30 Exhaustion limit, and a 10 CON Bard would have 20. That's not really clearly explained any where, I don't think.

Does it need to be? It's exhaustion.

If anything, there should be MORE information about exhaustion relayed to the character/player. I think we're all pretty in-tune with how fast we're getting tired if we're working IRL.

[APorg]

Does it need to be? It's exhaustion.

Ideally, yes.  I know IRL whether I'm just slightly winded, very winded, or about to drop from exhaustion.  Currently, the system doesn't give much feedback beyond the debug system or the occasional message.

The exhaustion system shouldn't be opaque.  Feedback is good.  The fact that the debug message feedback happens at the same time as the exhaustion ticks and thus enables exploiting is an issue, but fixing the exploit shouldn't come at the cost of unrealistic opacity.

If the debug system should be removed, then it should be replaced by a wordier system, e.g. a suggestion like I made years ago.

More immersive feedback from the Exhaustion system so I don't have to rely on the debug system to figure out how tired my character is.

As far as I can tell, the current system only starts giving warnings at around Threshold - 4. Meaning by the time you get the warning, you're already close to getting serious penalties.

Obviously you can use the debug system, but as I imagine much of the effort of this server is in immersion, I think it'd be nice to get a few more messages, so perhaps:

Exhaustion 1 - 5: "Your breathing quickens at your effort"
Exhaustion 6 - 10: "You are starting to get a little out of breath"
Exhaustion 11 - 15 (if not already exceeding Threshold): "You are a little winded"
Exhaustion 16 - 20 (if not already exceeding Threshold): "You are winded"
Exhaustion 20+ (if not already exceeding Threshold): "You are very winded"

Note: none of these messages would override the default exhaustion messages already in the system, these would basically supplement them.

[BraveSirRobin]

My only problem with that, is that it means you don't get much of a warning or understanding of how your exhaustion meter works. Like a 10 CON Barb would have 30 Exhaustion limit, and a 10 CON Bard would have 20. That's not really clearly explained any where, I don't think.

Does it need to be? It's exhaustion.

I think the others above me have covered most of the points I'd make well enough. You'd know when you're getting exhausted, it doesn't just sneak up on you. Removing the debug prompt removes the ability to know your fatigue level and plan accordingly. I've always had exhaustion debug on for that purpose.

[Hathor]

My only problem with that, is that it means you don't get much of a warning or understanding of how your exhaustion meter works. Like a 10 CON Barb would have 30 Exhaustion limit, and a 10 CON Bard would have 20. That's not really clearly explained any where, I don't think.

Does it need to be? It's exhaustion.

I think the others above me have covered most of the points I'd make well enough. You'd know when you're getting exhausted, it doesn't just sneak up on you. Removing the debug prompt removes the ability to know your fatigue level and plan accordingly. I've always had exhaustion debug on for that purpose.

Isn't there a popup that explicitly states "you feel you will get exhausted soon"?

[APorg]

Yeah, usually when you're already 16 - 20 exhaustion points down the hole.  Imagine if you went running and the only way to know how out of breath you were was to push yourself until just before your hands started to shake.

That the debug mode gives reliable feedback isn't the problem.

[Hathor]

What about removing debug mode and making the exhaustion notification give more advance warning?

Though...speaking personally, I do what seems IC. I get the notification and stop running, and I don't wind up exhausted--I'm pretty sure at least, I can check this later. Isn't that what we are supposed to do?

[APorg]

Sure, but that's reductive. IRL our bodies don't give us explicit information about how exhausted we are, but we can feel how tired we are in our muscles, our heart pound and we can gauge the speed of our own breathing. We get FAR more information from our bodies than a mere warning before we start suffering consequences.

The fact that the debug system lets PCs manage their exhaustion is not the problem -- IRL runners manage their stamina, knowing when to push themselves and when not to. The problem is that the tick system can be gamed. By all means, let's get rid of the gaming of the system, but not at the expense of some dynamic level of feedback from the exhaustion system. Without dynamic feedback, the exhaustion system doesn't add immersion, it's just a burden.

[distilled1]

Simplest and most effective approach would simply be to remove the debugging information. The server is pretty stable as is now.

Yes please.

If possible, also add one more warning message which displays earlier than the "near exhaust" warning, so that there is one message saying something like "Getting winded" as well as the "nearly exhausted" message.
However, if adding that 2nd warning message, please ensure it is sent to the player at a randomized delay so that a player can't figure out the timing between the two messages on a stopwatch, and there after continue avoiding exhaustion checks.

[distilled1]

Actually guys, I just realized a huge flaw, regardless of the the debug messages being on or off.

The flaw is having the server do exhaustion checks on a fixed frequency (such as every 50 seconds), because the debuffs a player incurs from reaching certain levels of exhaustion are on that same, fixed, 50 second frequency as the "neary exhausted" message. Then after two more fixed, 50 second exhaustion checks pass with the character running, a player can see their debuffs get even worse.

With that information, a player can still easily figure out the server's fixed frequency using a stopwatch, and from then on, easily circumvent the exhaustion checks, and run for an infinite amount of time if they want to.

It would be more work than just having the debug messages tell players the exhaustion checks each step of the way though. That's for sure.

Just saying, randomized checks would be the only sure-fire way to stop any exploitation. Though, like I said earlier, maybe I just need to accept that, not exploit, and trust that others won't exploit.

[Hathor]

Actually guys, I just realized a huge flaw, regardless of the the debug messages being on or off.

The flaw is having the server do exhaustion checks on a fixed frequency (such as every 50 seconds), because the debuffs a player incurs from reaching certain levels of exhaustion are on that same, fixed, 50 second frequency as the "neary exhausted" message. Then after two more fixed, 50 second exhaustion checks pass with the character running, a player can see their debuffs get even worse.

With that information, a player can still easily figure out the server's fixed frequency using a stopwatch, and from then on, easily circumvent the exhaustion checks, and run for an infinite amount of time if they want to.

It would be more work than just having the debug messages tell players the exhaustion checks each step of the way though. That's for sure.

Just saying, randomized checks would be the only sure-fire way to stop any exploitation. Though, like I said earlier, maybe I just need to accept that, not exploit, and trust that others won't exploit.

I'm all for removing the debug message and making the exhaustion warning system more helpful, but this seems way too much.

[Duayne]

A small QoL change would be moving the *Soon you'll feel exhaused* message back a couple of numbers, so it will gives a slightly more reasonable heads up. But I am 100% for removing the debug information. If people then set a repeating 50 second timer somewhere else, then that is exploiting the system even more than they already would be.

[McNastea]

I used to get very confused and frustrated at not knowing what was exhausting me when I was crafting, turns out using items at the wrong time counts toward non-combat spellcasting so I'd get +1s to exhaustion even if I was being stationary...

... The debug information is useful, but I admit I keep it turned on not because I want to game the numbers in that sense, but that I would want to know how exhausted he can get before he would need to take a break or it would start inhibiting his actions.

As a barbarian that can do a lot of running, I know that my running stamina is legendary, so if I were to gauge when I would start getting tired, how would my companions feel about the pace I keep? It's a reminder that everyone moves at their own pace and that I need to slow down so that other people can catch their breath, regardless of what their actual exhaustion is.

Maybe the debug information could toggle itself off after a certain period of time, though, if people aren't using it to gauge how tired their characters actually get before it's too late.

If you were in your characters' shoes how tired you actually are would be something you would know. You wouldn't want to exhaust yourself before a big fight or before some dungeon spelunking.

This information is already shared with you in form of (rough wording):

<Continuing at this rate you feel you'll soon be exhaused>
<You are feeling slightly exhausted>
<You are feeling exhausted>
<You are feeling extremely exhausted>

The exact numbers are unnecessary, nobody thinks "I'm feeling maybe 20% exhausted" or 4/20 etc

I both agree and disagree with you entirely. I shall explain!

I think more frequent ticks with the amounts adjusted for being more frequent would be find and prevent cheesing. I do, however, worry that doing so would cause lag. As I understand it the ticks are currently aligned with the servers 'heartbeat' or something like that which is used to check quite a few different things. Doing so more frequently, espeically with more player and therefore more things to check, could cause problems.

That being said, even if it doesn't I disagree sir! No one thinks "I'm 20% tired", but you can for damn sure feel it. You can feel just how tired you are from one moment to the next and give a pretty good approximation of it. I think that's, if anything, an argument in favor of more frequent ticks regardless.

[distilled1]

For sure. More ticks is the ideal solution, but not a realistic one unless the server was severely upgraded to handle 1 check every 2 seconds or so.

2nd best solution, in my opinion, is randomized delays put on exhaust-related information sent to players, including delays put on their exhaust-related debuffs so that information doesn't coincide with the exhaustion checks, but this is also the most complicated solution, likely requiring lots of new coding.

3rd best solution is to simply remove the option for debug exhaust information. This can be done easily, but isn't a full solution to potential exploits because players can still use a stopwatch to estimate the next exhaustion check every 50 seconds after receiving their exhaustion warning messages or after receiving their exhaustion-related debuffs.

[Dardonas]

I've not seen anyone game the system truthfully like the OP lines out.  Does it exist?  It's likely, but it's pretty rare if it is, and I'd be impressed if someone went out of their way to time exhaustion to an exact science because what I've seen is that even if you stop or swap to running before a tick it still sometimes counts you as running.

On occasion, I'll weigh whether or not I want to swap to walk mode for several moments to get more stamina back while I travel or just bite the bullet and deal with exhaustion.  That's not really gaming the system any more than if you were jogging and swapped to a brisk pace or stopped to catch your breath.

It seems to me like the original post is trying to solve an issue that doesn't really exist.

[tom]

I've not seen anyone game the system truthfully like the OP lines out.  Does it exist?  It's likely, but it's pretty rare if it is, and I'd be impressed if someone went out of their way to time exhaustion to an exact science because what I've seen is that even if you stop or swap to running before a tick it still sometimes counts you as running.

On occasion, I'll weigh whether or not I want to swap to walk mode for several moments to get more stamina back while I travel or just bite the bullet and deal with exhaustion.  That's not really gaming the system any more than if you were jogging and swapped to a brisk pace or stopped to catch your breath.

It seems to me like the original post is trying to solve an issue that doesn't really exist.

This honestly. I've never encountered someone doing this. It also seems extremely tedious to game the system as it currently stands which is probably why I've never seen anyone do it.

[Hathor]

Yeah that's...a fair point. I admit I just assumed it was being noticed a lot. Sorry!

[Duayne]

It seems rare, because it's really impossible to tell unless you have this information turned on yourself and see a pattern in someone elses movement.

I stick with what I've mentioned already in this thread: reduce the threshold for the <You feel you'll soon be exhaused (or whatever the wording is)> by a couple of digits, so people get ~100 seconds before they get the malus. And remove this information from the debug menu. Nobody really needs to know the tick cycle of exhaustion if the warning for getting close to exhaustion is more of a headsup.

[Dardonas]

It seems rare, because it's really impossible to tell unless you have this information turned on yourself and see a pattern in someone elses movement.

I stick with what I've mentioned already in this thread: reduce the threshold for the <You feel you'll soon be exhaused (or whatever the wording is)> by a couple of digits, so people get ~100 seconds before they get the malus. And remove this information from the debug menu. Nobody really needs to know the tick cycle of exhaustion if the warning for getting close to exhaustion is more of a headsup.

I have the information turned on, actually.  Even with it on, it doesn't change how incredibly rare it is that people game the numbers.  As I said, it's such an imprecise science with how it ticks that I'd be amazed if anyone was actually setting mental timers of when to stop running to game exhaustion.

[distilled1]

It seems rare, because it's really impossible to tell unless you have this information turned on yourself and see a pattern in someone elses movement.

I stick with what I've mentioned already in this thread: reduce the threshold for the <You feel you'll soon be exhaused (or whatever the wording is)> by a couple of digits, so people get ~100 seconds before they get the malus. And remove this information from the debug menu. Nobody really needs to know the tick cycle of exhaustion if the warning for getting close to exhaustion is more of a headsup.

I have the information turned on, actually.  Even with it on, it doesn't change how incredibly rare it is that people game the numbers.  As I said, it's such an imprecise science with how it ticks that I'd be amazed if anyone was actually setting mental timers of when to stop running to game exhaustion.

It's actually extremely easy to time the checks.
All that is required to run infinitely, without incurring any penalties, is to stop your character from running about 5 seconds before the check happens, and the check will determine your characte was walking or standing still every single time.
Makes the exhaustion checks completely meaningless, many people likely do know this, and I bet it isn't policed much at all, not that I want DMs to waste their time policing this instead of providing roleplay.

I agree that only a percentage of people likely abuse this, and so it isn't a large issue.

I also agree 100% with what Duayne said on said there.
Giving an earlier warning for exhaustion plus removing the debug option sounds great.

[zDark Shadowz]

It doesnt always work like that, the timer is randomly delayed from when it checks and when you receive the message, it could have already started checking maybe 20 seconds before you receive the message sometimes, so if youve already been just walking for 20 seconds its not like any real benefit has been gained.

In saying that however, the check happens at some point shortly after the clock minute ticks over, which can be gamed with the weather debug message instead since THAT isn't delayed, if it's night time or particularly visually or audibly obscured...

... so its actually a different message people would game for exhaustion, the exhaustion message just tells them whether it worked or not.

What's cool is you can negate the penalties of exhaustion almost entirely with lesser restoration and freedom of movement potions and only worry about the spell failure

[firelord111]

removing the number makes the exhaustion system buggy interaction with con buffs very annoying specially temporary ones like aura of vitality .
other than that for when you get very exhausted you dont know how much you have to really wait since i assume there is not text for all of the instances above 50.
I rather not keep having quality of life axed because some people rule break and some people want to imagine other people rule breaking.

[slash]

Trust is one of the most important aspects of playing a game with others. I personally have never seen or even heard of anyone gaming the system in the way the OP described, and honestly I would rather think better of the people I play with and deal with the few cases of people using the system unfaithfully than dismantle everything (or heaping more work onto the volunteer development team) over suspicion that the system could be misused. If there is a change to be done, I think that some stronger evidence is required before making a huge deal out of something so minor. It gives the impression that players can't be trusted, and that sort of pall hanging over people can detract from the experience of actually playing the game and having fun.

[distilled1]

It doesnt always work like that, the timer is randomly delayed from when it checks and when you receive the message, it could have already started checking maybe 20 seconds before you receive the message sometimes, so if youve already been just walking for 20 seconds its not like any real benefit has been gained.

In saying that however, the check happens at some point shortly after the clock minute ticks over, which can be gamed with the weather debug message instead since THAT isn't delayed, if it's night time or particularly visually or audibly obscured...

... so its actually a different message people would game for exhaustion, the exhaustion message just tells them whether it worked or not.

What's cool is you can negate the penalties of exhaustion almost entirely with lesser restoration and freedom of movement potions and only worry about the spell failure

Thank you for that info, zDark Shadowz. I nearly didn't believe you until I went ahead and tested it.
I should have actually tried timing the checks with a stopwatch before making this thread.
I admit that I didn't even attempt to time the checks, and just assumed the checks were on a fixed frequency and therefore easy to circumvent because I had managed to do it a few times while doing delivery quests.
I guess I spoke too soon, and for that I apologize to the community for causing unnecessary worry. I will now erase my last post, claiming "It's extremely easy to time the checks", and correct my first post in this thread.

From my very recent testing, what zDark Shadowz says here is absolutely true. I didn't receive a message at fixed frequencies, and that makes it difficult to time.
It's still not impossible for players to somewhat time the exhaustion checks by slowing down for 20 seconds after about 40 seconds have passed since your last exhaustion message, but like zDark Shadowz said, that's really not a huge benefit at that point. You've slowed down for a long period of time. You weren't constantly running, or nearly constantly running.

Again I apologize to everyone for my jumping to assumptions here, and thank you all for your feedback.

[BraveSirRobin]

Bards have a spell that specifically removes exhaustion, but Freedom of Movement negates movement penalties as well. Exhaustion isn't really as big of an issue as it's being presented here, especially given all of the ways to counteract its status effects. My Bard ends up hauling 3,000 lbs of Meteories semi-regularly with invisibility and freedom of movement. Magic is a hell of a drug.