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Author Topic: Decrease the time between exhaustion checks or come up with better system?  (Read 3205 times)

distilled1

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Let's be honest here. People love min-maxing in their online video games, even games like PotM that aren't supposed to be about min-maxing.
As such, a good percentage of people will always secretly be using the debug exhaustion information to secretly gain small advantages over others, under the radar of DMs who should not have to waste their time policing these exploits anyways.

Right now, the exhaustion checks seem to happen every 50 seconds.
Could this be changed to every 10 seconds, or even every 30 seconds instead?
I think that change would stop players from attempting to exploit the system, and simply turn off their debug information, because it would be too much of a hassle to keep track of at that point.

I think it would be a lot more immersive for characters who run a lot, such as monks, or characters who often make long delivery trips to have their exhaustion level updated more frequently.
Right now, I'm willing to bet that most people exploit this system under the radar, and just won't admit to it, because it's so annoying to slow your character down for 50 seconds every time you want your character to "catch their breath". Especially when it feels like you've been unfairly penalized because you were slowing down, but accidentally ran a bit just as the exhaustion check was happening.
Catching your breath should be updated faster in my opinion, just like running out of breath should be.

Either that, or could a superior system be put in place which updates character's exhaustion levels in a more real-time fashion?
Maybe a client-side addon that everyone who plays on PotM has to install or something?
Any ideas?
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EDIT (June 24, 2021):
Spoiler: show
It doesnt always work like that, the timer is randomly delayed from when it checks and when you receive the message, it could have already started checking maybe 20 seconds before you receive the message sometimes, so if youve already been just walking for 20 seconds its not like any real benefit has been gained.

In saying that however, the check happens at some point shortly after the clock minute ticks over, which can be gamed with the weather debug message instead since THAT isn't delayed, if it's night time or particularly visually or audibly obscured...

... so its actually a different message people would game for exhaustion, the exhaustion message just tells them whether it worked or not.

What's cool is you can negate the penalties of exhaustion almost entirely with lesser restoration and freedom of movement potions and only worry about the spell failure

From my very recent testing, what zDark Shadowz says here is absolutely true. I didn't receive a message at fixed frequencies, and that makes it difficult to time.
It's still not impossible for players to somewhat time the exhaustion checks by slowing down for 20 seconds after about 40 seconds have passed since your last exhaustion message, but like zDark Shadowz said, that's really not a huge benefit at that point. You've slowed down for a long period of time. You weren't constantly running, or nearly constantly running.

Again I apologize to everyone for my jumping to assumptions here, and thank you all for your feedback.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 07:40:53 PM by distilled1 »

Duayne

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+1

There are far too many people that use this debug info to cheese the checks. e.g. running for 40, walking for 10, it recognises walking at the time of check so it doesn't add to the exhaustion count. You can see this info in nearly every screenshot posted if the combat log is visible. Simply removing this information from the debug menu, or removing the players ability to see this would solve this issue.

Revenant

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A fair number of people, in this game and others, pride themselves on enjoying systems that many would consider miserable. It acts as proof of grit, of ability to put story over mechanics. Reasonable things to have pride about.

That said? More exhaustion ticks would make dungeoning miserable. I do not enjoy misery for its own sake. Already, there are dungeons where the sheer wealth of enemies means running into exhaustion when done at pace. Let the monks with their timers do what they do, or if you really feel a moral impetus, remove the numbers.
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Duayne

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So your solution is ignorance?

If a reduction on the interval between checks was considered, obviously the amount it would tick up and down would be reduced to compensate and leave the system at the approx intensity it already is.

Simply this information should just be removed/hidden from the debug information. What use is this info for debugging anyway? Nobody has this mode on to 'debug'.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 02:21:47 AM by Duayne »

zDark Shadowz

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I used to get very confused and frustrated at not knowing what was exhausting me when I was crafting, turns out using items at the wrong time counts toward non-combat spellcasting so I'd get +1s to exhaustion even if I was being stationary...

... The debug information is useful, but I admit I keep it turned on not because I want to game the numbers in that sense, but that I would want to know how exhausted he can get before he would need to take a break or it would start inhibiting his actions.

As a barbarian that can do a lot of running, I know that my running stamina is legendary, so if I were to gauge when I would start getting tired, how would my companions feel about the pace I keep? It's a reminder that everyone moves at their own pace and that I need to slow down so that other people can catch their breath, regardless of what their actual exhaustion is.

Maybe the debug information could toggle itself off after a certain period of time, though, if people aren't using it to gauge how tired their characters actually get before it's too late.

If you were in your characters' shoes how tired you actually are would be something you would know. You wouldn't want to exhaust yourself before a big fight or before some dungeon spelunking.

Duayne

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I used to get very confused and frustrated at not knowing what was exhausting me when I was crafting, turns out using items at the wrong time counts toward non-combat spellcasting so I'd get +1s to exhaustion even if I was being stationary...

... The debug information is useful, but I admit I keep it turned on not because I want to game the numbers in that sense, but that I would want to know how exhausted he can get before he would need to take a break or it would start inhibiting his actions.

As a barbarian that can do a lot of running, I know that my running stamina is legendary, so if I were to gauge when I would start getting tired, how would my companions feel about the pace I keep? It's a reminder that everyone moves at their own pace and that I need to slow down so that other people can catch their breath, regardless of what their actual exhaustion is.

Maybe the debug information could toggle itself off after a certain period of time, though, if people aren't using it to gauge how tired their characters actually get before it's too late.

If you were in your characters' shoes how tired you actually are would be something you would know. You wouldn't want to exhaust yourself before a big fight or before some dungeon spelunking.

This information is already shared with you in form of (rough wording):

<Continuing at this rate you feel you'll soon be exhaused>
<You are feeling slightly exhausted>
<You are feeling exhausted>
<You are feeling extremely exhausted>

The exact numbers are unnecessary, nobody thinks "I'm feeling maybe 20% exhausted" or 4/20 etc

zDark Shadowz

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That first message is already too late, you've acquired the penalties, or are soon going to be in the next couple of minutes. I mean being able to nip that in the bud far before it gets to that point by referring to numbers that not everyone exactly wants to see but should be something you could know.

Not being able to fight for longer than a couple of minutes is pretty awful, and it's not something people would willingly put themselves into that state before fighting something like a goristo if they could help it.

The debug information is useful in this regard, not for gaming when the 'ticks' happen.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 02:32:29 AM by zDark Shadowz »

Duayne

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Hence the word "soon".

This also drives reason for RP in dungeons or to take it slower instead of just running through pack to pack and speed running the content. Most groups I've been with will opt to walk between packs of mobs, likely for the purpose of keeping their exhaustion in check and mixing in RP, which makes sense.

distilled1

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Hence the word "soon".

This also drives reason for RP in dungeons or to take it slower instead of just running through pack to pack and speed running the content. Most groups I've been with will opt to walk between packs of mobs, likely for the purpose of keeping their exhaustion in check and mixing in RP, which makes sense.
I agree.

Another thing small thing, if the time between checks was decreased, or if the debug option was no longer available, it would put more value on the constitution modifier which people are probably leaving low on purpose because they know they can just cheat the exhaustion system.
Without being able to cheat it, you'd need to rely on the increased "threshold" level that higher constitution provides.

Revenant

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So your solution is ignorance...

If a reduction on the interval between checks was considered, obviously the amount it would tick up and down would be reduced to compensate and leave the system at the approx intensity it already is.

Simply this information should just be removed/hidden from the debug information. What use is this info for debugging anyway? Nobody has this mode on to 'debug'.
My solution is not altering a system that I already think is largely flawed to be more punitive; potential new players have literally abandoned the server over our existing exhaustion system. More or less the only purpose I actually like the exhaustion system for is curtailing incredibly laborious solo attempts via high AC, low AB/damage setups.

Assuming that one change will "obviously" beget another is dangerous. Reasonably, people will not be encouraged to walk the thousandth Tser Pool - Vallaki circuit alone more if the overall pressure of the system remains the same. The point of an increased interval is making it harder to time, increasing failures. Reducing intensity alongside it would reduce the cost of each failure, allowing more of them. More failures, but more room to fail, exhaustion is still just as easy to game, the change is moot.

People "speed run" the content for a couple of reasons. One, plenty of people don't find their Nth iteration of each dungeon with a particular group to generate particularly inspiring RP material. Two, even with extended buff timers the clock is always ticking and dragging feet can mean the difference between sitting at the front door of a temple waiting for hours to tick over and getting back to things people would rather be doing. 

In regards to the common counterargument to not-making-dungeons-more-of-a-slog: Dungeoning is mandatory if you want full character agency on a sane timeline and access to the content the server provides. Based on that, I do not find the argument that those who don't love dungeon smalltalk simply shouldn't dungeon, and that therefore dungeoning should be made to take longer, to hold water.
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BraveSirRobin

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If someone is cheesing the exhaustion system, it's an offense that (so far as I am aware) the DM Team will look into and consider the same exploit as side-walking when encumbered over prolonged distances. If there are people who do it. People who do it should be reported.

In order for this argument to begin with people cheesing the system to such an extent to be worthy of a discussion to rebalance it, then those who are exploiting it should be reported. If someone is seeing other people do this, and if they are seeing it enough to consider it a problem, then they should report it so that it stops. Otherwise, this mass-exploitation is either being willfully overlooked by those who are witnessing it (or doing it) or doesn't exist, and it's a moot point.

The debug info is useful for understanding how close you are getting to exhaustion and when to stop. It's a tool that allows you to understand your exhaustion cap compared to other classes, feats, and constitution. Barbarians have a huge exhaustion cap, for instance. This information is important to know, because by the time you are exhausted and you receive the message without the debug prompt, you are already suffering penalties.

PoTM suffers from enough hidden systems. Just report whoever is doing this, if it is truly believed to be an issue. Hiding it is counterproductive.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:13:24 AM by BraveSirRobin »

PrimetheGrime

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Frankly I don't see a need to change the system. If people are abusing the debug menu to avoid exhaustion whilst running, it'll be handled. the current crop of ideas would mean a lot of work just to change an exhaustion system that already people are on the fence about. I certainly wouldn't want more exhaustion, especially when in combat as that could be fatal.

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While I'm all about realistic depictions of real world in video games, there's a line that should be never crossed and that line is player enjoyability.

Let's assume that we will change the system to punish the people cheesing- what about those who respect it? Why punish a majority for the slights of a minority? Like Revenant said, our current system is already quite exhausting (pun intended) and making it even harsher has no merit. It won't improve roleplay or the mechanical side of the server - on the contrary, it will probably hinder it.

As BSR mentioned, cheesing the exhaustion system is an offense, so if you are familiar with someone who does it and you have the proof of it, report them.

BraveSirRobin

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While I'm all about realistic depictions of real world in video games, there's a line that should be never crossed and that line is player enjoyability.

Let's assume that we will change the system to punish the people cheesing- what about those who respect it? Why punish a majority for the slights of a minority? Like Revenant said, our current system is already quite exhausting (pun intended) and making it even harsher has no merit. It won't improve roleplay or the mechanical side of the server - on the contrary, it will probably hinder it.

As BSR mentioned, cheesing the exhaustion system is an offense, so if you are familiar with someone who does it and you have the proof of it, report them.

I'll add that it the current exhaustion system does serve some purpose. In those long duels that weaponsmasters and other classes have, sometimes neither side can hit eachother. Sometimes, exhaustion finally comes into play when you're fishing for 20's. I've seen more PvP in port that was consensual, a duel, sparring, or otherwise that has been directly effected by the exhaustion system and it's kind of neat and interesting. It also keeps people from running everywhere so much without consequence. The current system does do good things. I just don't think that it changing it around rulebreakers is a wise move, because rulebreakers will just find a new way.

Duayne

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Nobody is advocating for more exhaustion. The wording in the original post could be viewed as that, but I doubt they're -that- crazy.

distilled1

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Nobody is advocating for more exhaustion. The wording in the original post could be viewed as that, but I doubt they're -that- crazy.

No I certainly was not. I was advocating for both increases of exhaustion AND DECREASES of exhaustion to be updated faster.
However, you guys have made good points in that, even if exhaustion checks were updated faster, unless it was like every 1 second, people would still abuse it, timing their runs between exhaustion checks.

I imagine that having the server update every character's exhaustion every 1 second, while ideal, would put too much strain on the server and cause lag.
So I believe simply disabling the debug mode option for exhaustion is a better solution, unless the server was super upgraded and could handle that.

For those who are expressing how much it would punish players, do you not comprehend that the increased exhaustion updates would make you LOSE exhaustion faster in real time as well as gain it?

For those saying "fine the way it is; DMs will punish them", that's kind of naive and also a waste of time for DMs that doesn't need to exist in the first place.

Remember, we'd all be on the same playing field whether that debug option was available or not. Except with it available, some people respect the rules, and leave it turned off, while many others do not respect the rules, and leave it on in order to secretly metagame while travelling.
(Example: Debug info just ticked telling the metagamer their exhaust was updated, now they know they can get away with running for the next 50 seconds without penalty. The guy choosing to respect the rules doesn't know when that next tick will come and gets penalized with more exhaust)
The metagamers likely don't get caught because it's such a stupid thing to police and they know it.

distilled1

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OH MY GOSH I just realized while lying in bed that the time between exhaustion checks could be RANDOMIZED from, say, every 10 seconds to every 50 seconds.

This way, we get to leave the debug option available for players to see their exhaustion updates, while also making it impossible for secret metagamers to predict when their next exhaustion update will be.

Best of both worlds. Randomize it if possible please.
Make it unpredictable and therefore unexploitable.

EDIT: yeah nevermind all that last post. People could still exploit it. Just not as much.
Im really tired and not thinkinm straight
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 05:05:39 AM by distilled1 »

PrimetheGrime

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You're really complicating this man. It's not naivety that brings us to the conclusion it's fine as is. It's looking at the amount of work required to make any tweaks to the system when it really doesn't need it.

QDS

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You don't really need the debug mode to work out the exhaustion system. I for one do not use the debug system and when I get the message that I will get tired, I will walk for a while (unless I really need to run). I don't think that is an exploit. You feel that you will get tired, you walk, then after a while, you run again. Rinse and repeat.
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BraveSirRobin

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You don't really need the debug mode to work out the exhaustion system. I for one do not use the debug system and when I get the message that I will get tired, I will walk for a while (unless I really need to run). I don't think that is an exploit. You feel that you will get tired, you walk, then after a while, you run again. Rinse and repeat.

That's not what we're talking about. OP's scenario is that it the exhaustion system updates every 50 seconds. So he's saying people run for 40 seconds, then walk for 10 so that when the system check at the 50 second mark goes off, they aren't counted as having run at all, in order to purposefully circumvent the exhaustion system.

OH MY GOSH I just realized while lying in bed that the time between exhaustion checks could be RANDOMIZED from, say, every 10 seconds to every 50 seconds.

This way, we get to leave the debug option available for players to see their exhaustion updates, while also making it impossible for secret metagamers to predict when their next exhaustion update will be.

Best of both worlds. Randomize it if possible please.
Make it unpredictable and therefore unexploitable.

EDIT: yeah nevermind all that last post. People could still exploit it. Just not as much.
Im really tired and not thinkinm straight

There is another more important factor one has to consider. The more frequently the exhaustion script ticks away, the more lag it causes for the server. By adding all of this extra scripting, and increasing the frequency at which it transpires, you're using more resources. That's honestly, the most prohibitive factor present. Even if we pretend that the Devs can easily adjust the frequency, the frequency will have an impact on server performance and limited resources which they are constantly optimizing to rectify server lag.

Neverwinter Nights is a terribly capable engine, given what it is. But all of this runs external of the NWN engine in like NWNX and such on the server backend, which means the server has to do extra work before it can communicate between client and server. This gets worse, the more people you have online at a single time and this script specifically pertains to PCs, effectively doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the impact this script has on the server and will make situations where a bunch of players are online (or in the same area) even more laggy.

It's just better to report exploiters, in my honest opinion. I concur that if someone is gaming this system purposefully, it's bad behavior and it's not the kind of mindset that is healthy to the community or the spirit of the server. There is a heavy responsibility upon our fellow players to be not only honest, but to be courteous, kind, and fair. If you see it, mention it to the DM Team. If you see people you think are doing it, mention it to the DM Team, if they do it frequently enough I'm sure they'll be caught doing their little sprint-walk-dance by a DM on client eventually.

distilled1

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Well-said, BraveSirRobin.
You're right. I may be making too big of a deal out of this issue when instead maybe I should be trusting my fellow players to play honestly.

Maybe I simply have trust issues due to playing so many online games in the past where people have taken every risky opportunity they can to gain advantages over others and I hate being the sap who gets taken advantage of.

I'm still of the opinion we ought to have the debug option removed, to avoid the very possibility of people circumventing exhaustion increases and to avoid more policing by DMs, but for now, I'll simply play honestly myself and trust others to do the same.

EarlofEtheria

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Wouldn't limiting a debug feature to the test server be nominal?

Hathor

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I support removing the debug feature, it just seems unnecessary. While it's nice to think that it wouldn't be abused, rulings about different class abilities have had to be made in the past because people abused them. In this case it seems fairly straightforward, there's no reason for it to be visible to players.

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Simplest and most effective approach would simply be to remove the debugging information. The server is pretty stable as is now.

BraveSirRobin

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My only problem with that, is that it means you don't get much of a warning or understanding of how your exhaustion meter works. Like a 10 CON Barb would have 30 Exhaustion limit, and a 10 CON Bard would have 20. That's not really clearly explained any where, I don't think.