You have been taken by the Mists

Author Topic: Yet another Ninja looting thread  (Read 538 times)

Eters

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Yet another Ninja looting thread
« on: June 10, 2021, 05:51:12 AM »
Unfortunately, the very dead horse has to be beat up again, and after going through many threads which have already been going for close to 5 - 6 years now, it seems most if not all of them just end up fading into silence.

At first I was reluctant to write anything in the forums about it, it's honestly one of the most "controversial" subjects in the PoTM community, and opinions on it fluctuate from side to side. Yet when its effects are perpetually felt in your everyday game experience, I believe it is only fair to bring it up once more.

First of all, from both an IC and a narrative point of view, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the concept of ninja looting. In a world like Ravenloft, it makes complete sense for people to wish to avoid the danger, and yet get something out of it. The "IC morality and logic" behind it is not what I wish to point at because that has been long debated and it's evident that just like a powerful character can on its own walk into a dungeon and set it ablaze, a stealth can sneak through it and take the loot.

With that out of the way, let us tackle the mechanical aspect of ninja looting. I've read in many threads that "ninja looting is inconsequential and doesn't affect party play." But either that script ceased working a long while back, or the entire system is not functioning as intended because, it affects massively the gameplay of those unable to ninja loot (as in, melee trashcans in armor that have to fight stuff due to our -55 hide and MS) .

What actually occurs is that, when a strong dungeon gets ninja'd, the dungeon's strength remains untouched, which means that it is still at max spawn. In a way, it is inconsequential in terms of EXP since ninja looting doesn't reset the dungeon's strength mobs wise. THAT SAID, the loot is reset, so you find yourself in silly situations where you have to cut through a dungeon in it's peak, just to find Vallaki rank loot within it's chests, rendering the entire experience null and void of satisfaction.

And I can see some say that the experience in itself is enough reward for a dungeon, I disagree. There is a large aspect about any DnD game and that is the joy of finding a reward at the end of the line, you and your party go through various hardships and find something of enough value that it justifies the danger you went through (most of the time at least). Such a feeling is rarely felt due to the above mentioned point.

Some examples of the top of my head would be : Hotep (You can fight a legion of undead and a powerful boss and be rewarded with sand and combustible oil if it was ninja'd prior.) , Sithicus's Barrows (The two chests to the side are often filled with 1 GP worth robes, a worthwhile reward for dunking it out with a beast that can one shot you), Salt mines (Frost rods, really?) and the list goes on ...

Which brings the questions, how can ninja looting be truly molded into the server's "fun" aspect without it being completely detrimental and against the entire philosophy of said server which, and I quote "Encourages partying for dungeons." ? And is there a way to truly find a system that allows both sides of gameplay to coexist without one stepping over the other?


PlatointheCave

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2021, 06:24:33 AM »
Quote
What actually occurs is that, when a strong dungeon gets ninja'd, the dungeon's strength remains untouched, which means that it is still at max spawn. In a way, it is inconsequential in terms of EXP since ninja looting doesn't reset the dungeon's strength mobs wise. THAT SAID, the loot is reset, so you find yourself in silly situations where you have to cut through a dungeon in it's peak, just to find Vallaki rank loot within it's chests, rendering the entire experience null and void of satisfaction.

This is factually untrue.

The way the system works is as follows:

Looter loots dungeon at max spawn. Looter leaves dungeon and 15 minutes pass. Dungeon resets. Loot is reset to exactly the same level provided the ninjalooter doesn't enter the cell while it is loaded within the next reset.

Scenario 1:

If a party enters this dungeon without the ninjalooter visiting or being a part of the party, the loot will be fine.

Scenario 2:

The ninjalooter is a part of the party that enters. All loot will be hard set to the minimum.

Scenario 3:

The ninjalooter reenters alone. All loot will be hard set to minimum.

Scenario 4:

Party enters cell. Ninjalooter enters later before the party can open the chests. Loot is set to minimum.

What does this mean?

If you're experiencing minimum loot it is because someone in your own party already ninjalooted the place this reset or a ninjalooter entered the cell while you were there and so made all your loot minimum.

In both cases that is a ninjalooter not understanding the system or acting in bad faith. If you ninjalooted a dungeon; it is on you to not join a party hitting the dungeon. If you do, you deny that party loot. If you're deliberately entering a dungeon to cause loot to be bad for others. IDK. That seems really nasty.

The system of loot dropping is in place to stop ninjalooters repeatedly looting the same dungeon every 15 minutes.

It is a myth that ninjalooting affects your loot unless someone in your party isn't telling you something.

Eters

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2021, 06:40:16 AM »
Thank you for the in depth answer, I honestly had no knowledge about the workings of the system in details.

but the question is, was this system tested recently to see if it still works the way it is intended? Because from my own personal experience (and that of many that I know about) are not seeing the effect of the first scenario at all. When a place is ninja looted, even with knowing who ninja looted it, and going into the said dungeon that was looted after waiting for more than 15 minutes without the presence of the ninja in the party, it remained bad.

I asked around to those that do ninja a fair bit and the 2nd and third scenario do seem to occur, yet there has been enough odd instances where places that have not been visited in more than 15 minutes continued to have terrible loot despite the spawn being at max that it led to the point being raised repeatedly. Personal experience had it happen to me at least three times.

Unless what actually happens is that there is so many ninja looters out there that a dungeon is never allowed 15 mins of being untouched to "refresh" the loot, which I find to be very far fetched.

PlatointheCave

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2021, 06:43:55 AM »
Yes, that sounds like a bug.

If you can replicate it formally you should report it.

Do note that it's possible that someone you don't know touched the cell while you were clearing it. Now. A ninjalooter should know they can't touch the cell again without spoiling the loot and should have no reason to try before a reset.

But if one wanted to upset a party they could. They'd have to wait until a party visited a place, then follow them at that exact time. It'd be a lot of work to upset people, but could be done by an unkind stealther. If they are doing that, it seems like something that would or should be against the rules.

PrimetheGrime

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2021, 06:46:30 AM »
The system does still work as intended since last update, yes. There's been no changes to how the resets work. I'm not sure where these experiences are coming from, but it sounds like what Plato was referring to is likely. Perhaps it could be an issue you're having with certain dungeons but without know which ones I couldn't say.

Ithalan

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Useful Posts: 0
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 07:53:14 AM »
Out of curiosity, what is the intended way for new people to learn all this about the system before they start ninja-looting? This is the first time I see the details of it described, and the way it works does not seem particularly easy to intuit from either IC or OOC perspectives. If they are supposed to take the initiative themselves to ask for information, what is supposed to prompt them to do that?

PrimetheGrime

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2021, 07:56:58 AM »
Out of curiosity, what is the intended way for new people to learn all this about the system before they start ninja-looting? This is the first time I see the details of it described, and the way it works does not seem particularly easy to intuit from either IC or OOC perspectives. If they are supposed to take the initiative themselves to ask for information, what is supposed to prompt them to do that?

The best way to learn at least for me was to have a mentor. There's no official writeup for how to Ninjaloot, but it's not considered something the server is against if that makes sense. A lot of it comes from trial and error.

Ithalan

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Useful Posts: 0
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2021, 08:07:37 AM »
If detailed knowledge of this system is something all ninja looters are expected to have in order to avoid screwing over other, unsuspecting players, then it seems kind of negligent to just rely on them happening to have a mentor who passes this on to them.

Maybe send an OOC message to players if they enter a dungeon where the loot level has been nuked due to the presence of a ninja looter, or if it is nuked while they are in it because one enters? That way there's at least a possibility for everyone involved to find out what is happening by themselves.

slash

  • Gendarmerie
  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 08:15:39 AM »
My beliefs on ninjalooting and stealth in general have evolved considerably over the years, and where I used to think it was a bad thing, I now understand the situation a bit better and have come to realize that the system, under most circumstances, should  be a functional one. However, with that said, I have also known specific individuals who are perfectly content to abuse this ninjalooting system to ruin other players fun, and who were very eager. However, I can say with relative confidence that such individuals are a very slim minority that don't tend to stick around for very long.

However, I have also noticed the same problem from as early back as a couple of years ago, where a max spawn dungeon would yield minimum loot. To me this begs the question, if it is exceedingly unlikely that this is being caused by bad actors (and to reiterate, it is exceedingly unlikely that it is being caused by bad actors), and if what Prime says is true and the system is working as intended, then what causes the above result?

I think Plato provides a very good explanation, but I don't know if that alone satisfies me, though that may be more a result of my own paranoia at being unable to detect stealthers on most of my dungeoning characters. I've been in situations where a group enters into a dungeon and the players present are likely all aware of the way this ninjalooting system functions and who operate in a way that would be harmonious with this system, and yet the loot is still reset to the minimum with no visible explanation. I'm willing to concede that this may be chalked up to my own lack of understanding, but I do understand why occurrences like that could be frustrating to players.

I think it may be worthwhile to consider the idea of providing some sort of feedback regarding this system that players are able to see upon entering a dungeon, for the sake of offering up some form of explanation to what may appear as an opaque system that operates outside of the knowledge of many players. My initial thought was to have a message appear in the combat log whenever an individual who has recently ninjalooted a dungeon re-entered that dungeon and causes the loot to be reset to the minimum, however it is apparent that this may provide players with too much information regarding the location and movements of stealthed players that could be used to unfairly track their movements outside of IC detection mechanics. With that said, frankly I'm stumped as to what a more elegant solution could be.
"My soul is overflowing with obeisant reverence, and Your Most Illustrious Excellency of benignity, to you I most humbly bow." -Francesco Ferdinando Alfieri.

PlatointheCave

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 08:26:44 AM »
If detailed knowledge of this system is something all ninja looters are expected to have in order to avoid screwing over other, unsuspecting players, then it seems kind of negligent to just rely on them happening to have a mentor who passes this on to them.

Maybe send an OOC message to players if they enter a dungeon where the loot level has been nuked due to the presence of a ninja looter, or if it is nuked while they are in it because one enters? That way there's at least a possibility for everyone involved to find out what is happening by themselves.

This is a very good point.

I'd be in favour of sources for new players or in game notifications. At a minimum it should be detailed and stickied somewhere on the forums.

I also agree that some OOC notification that the current cell is "looted" is good. It might "out" a stealther OOC but honestly, as a regular stealth player, you don't get much useful information spying in a dungeon and the times it might allow metagaming seem a worthwhile sacrifice for harmony in the playerbase.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 08:29:03 AM by PlatointheCave »

PrimetheGrime

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2021, 08:31:00 AM »
It is a good point. I'll put it forward to the team and see if we can find a solution to the problem.

Eters

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 18
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2021, 08:34:55 AM »
There is also another point, if a ninja looter does his business all in good form and proceeds to "dungeon log", would him re-logging after 20 minutes or so cause him to nuke the loot because the way dungeon logging works causes you to spawn in the dungeon (for a half second) before being taken into your last safe spot?

PrimetheGrime

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2021, 08:47:00 AM »
There is also another point, if a ninja looter does his business all in good form and proceeds to "dungeon log", would him re-logging after 20 minutes or so cause him to nuke the loot because the way dungeon logging works causes you to spawn in the dungeon (for a half second) before being taken into your last safe spot?

It does yes. Experienced Ninja Looters don't dungeon log, they leave the dungeon and then log as a courtesy.

Kiyosa

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Tainted Dove
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2021, 08:48:57 AM »
Many "ninjas" have admitted to shadow a group in a dungeon for the XP itself, too. One or two, in fact, did say that they were on their way out when they saw the group enter and decided to stay for it. That is both OOC and IC ethics though. A character may well do this in a completely IC fashion, because that's what their personality dictates/allows. There's no obligation for the player to OOC inform the group when that's the case, other than OOC courtesy, which some may not extend.

That said, and correct me if I'm wrong here, places like the Ghastrian church or the Barrows can be frustrating loot-wise, even without the involvement of a stealther. To go through a max spawn and traps that deal high enough damage to kill certain characters, only to get Vallaki tier loot, isn't exactly uncalled for, but rather the norm. There's been a few threads about scaling the loot to the dungeon's difficulty before, especially regarding those places, but I'm not sure this has seen any change in the last few patches. I wonder if people falsely assume a ninja looter was there because of that.

tom

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 34
  • Don't worry I'm a professional.
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2021, 11:00:55 AM »
Maybe a pinned thread with just the loot mechanics behind ninjalooting might help ease peoples minds? I heard about the timer oocly anyway because it's probably hard to explain ic.

Hathor

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2021, 11:18:18 AM »
I also strongly support making ninjalooting information freely available OOC. In my experience ninjalooters are generally really kind to each other and willing to explain the mechanics ninjas and non-ninjas, and most aren't interested in making their role a hated one. That being said, the server suffers whenever some people get to know something OOC with benefits and others don't. I'd much rather know for fact how the mechanics work so I can avoid harming anyone else's fun.

For example, does it mess with the loot or spawn if I leave items in a dungeon? What about in a chest? I wanted to do this yesterday and realized I was unsure whether it had any effect.
Manishie Chanteuse - Just a girl who sings.

SardineTheAncestor

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1149
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2021, 05:03:20 PM »
There is also another point, if a ninja looter does his business all in good form and proceeds to "dungeon log", would him re-logging after 20 minutes or so cause him to nuke the loot because the way dungeon logging works causes you to spawn in the dungeon (for a half second) before being taken into your last safe spot?

It does yes. Experienced Ninja Looters don't dungeon log, they leave the dungeon and then log as a courtesy.

This is entirely anecdotal. Experienced ninjalooters wouldn't care either way. They would be exceptionally considerate of other players and experience doesn't really have a direct correlation to that.

Besides, the dungeon log script doesn't work like that. It knows where you'll arrive and it takes you out of the dungeon before any problems can arise. If it couldn't do this, the same exact thing would be happening when dungeon groups log out without leaving, too, and it would take longer for spawns to build up as a result. This would be a highly visible disruption and far more common than ninjalooter competition.

Phantasia

  • Stealth/Detection Cognoscenti
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1008
  • ¿
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2021, 05:09:31 PM »
Make ninja looting mechanics and information publicized? Ninja looting is a consequence of the way the system of loot is designed, it is not a feature that needs explaining beyond what is provided.

In the past, loot would reset every 15 minutes and people would keep the best spots close to their chest, constantly hitting them on reset. This is not really something we need to see the return of, but in a more cutthroat manner.

I like the suggestion of an OOC courtesy warning that the area has been touched recently, or an IC means of telling someone's been in a place. Would save a lot of headaches and wasted time.

The current means is just not good enough, as any manner of things could have happened before the area was initialized to you and your party arriving.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 05:13:11 PM by Phantasia »
Characters: M.J. Harding, Saoirse nic Léighinn, how come mom lets you have two rods of frost?

SardineTheAncestor

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1149
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2021, 05:13:40 PM »
^ Agreed with above. Some ninjas say they put a mark down to warn other groups that the place is being looted. That is an example of exceptional courtesy even if it isn't bulletproof in preventing heartbreak. Automating that would probably assuage many concerns about the system.

Glass Cannon

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1008
  • Friendly Merchant
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2021, 05:49:49 PM »
Could be something as simple as a message saying "you see foot prints in the dirt"... if someone has been in the dungein in the past 15 minutes and thus tagged it as active.
"Aristocrats and criminals have a lot in common. They’re both selfish, get bored easily, and have access to wads of cash they didn’t have to work honestly to get. The topper? Neither have any interest in bourgeois rules or morality."

Hathor

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2021, 05:58:17 PM »
Could be something as simple as a message saying "you see foot prints in the dirt"... if someone has been in the dungein in the past 15 minutes and thus tagged it as active.

+1
Manishie Chanteuse - Just a girl who sings.

PlatointheCave

  • The Underworld
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2021, 12:43:42 AM »
ok i wrote a thing. if there are questions to answer or things i missed please note so.

Ninjalooting 101

This is guide written to clarify the mechanics of loot spawning for the purpose of cohesion and harmonious play. Ninjalooting is when you loot a dungeon utilising stealth without killing the NPCs within. Ninjalooting is a supported system with mechanical nuance that is outside the scope of this reference.

What determines loot value?

Loot value grows alongside spawn size. That means at maximum spawn the loot values are at the highest for a dungeon. At minimum it is at its lowest value for a dungeon. There is one exception to this and it will be detailed in this guide.

How does ninjalooting affect loot?

This touches on a concept of "areas" in a module. An area is a space you loaded into. While there are no players in an area it isn't initialised. When a player enters an area it initialises. If all players leave an area and fifteen minutes pass then the area "resets". If you ninjaloot an area without killing any npcs in it and then leave, the area resets after fifteen minutes. If anyone else enters the area after this reset the loot and spawns in the dungeon will be at exactly the same value as when you looted it. If you reenter the area after fifteen minutes the spawns will be exactly the same but the loot in the area will be set to minimum. For this to happen you only need to enter the area before the loot spots have been touched by anyone else. It doesn't matter if you enter after other players intiialised the area. This is a little complicated so here are some scenarios:

a. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes and reenter. Loot is minimum.

b. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes. Someone else enters the area. You follow that person. Loot is minimum.

c. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes. Someone else enters the area and opens a chest. You follow that person. The loot in the opened chest has already been spawned, at the time the chest was opened, so you do not affect that loot. But you do affect all chests yet to be opened.

Basically, the moment you touch an area that you looted all of the loot nodes in that area are flagged and will spit out minimum loot. This flagging will last until the area resets. So if you accidentally enter, then leave. As long as no one tries to visit the dungeon within the next fifteen minutes, their loot will be fine.

I looted an area. When can I visit an area again without reducing the loot?

There are two conditions under which it is safe for you to touch an area without killing the loot. The first is after the server is reset.

The second is after the area has been "cleared" by a party. This means a party killed the spawns in the dungeon. Spawns, once cleared, gradually "grow" back. Once a dungeon has been cleared you can visit it again without affecting the loot. Of course, it takes a long time for spawns to "grow" back so in practice it's likely to take 1-2 RL days for you to be able to loot a place again.

I entered an area and found the loot was poor?

Whether it was caused by a ninjalooter or the spawn simply being low, if you open the node but don't take anything you can leave the area and come back after it has reset and/or the spawn has grown without affecting the loot you later find.

Soloing?

While not ninjalooting, it is possible for classes like clerics and druids to solo lower level content. It isn't technically against the rules, but if you kill spawns in order to loot an area then the spawns will be reduced to minimum after the area resets. This means the dungeons cannot be visited by appropriately levelled parties for many hours.

I am an (a)MPC. Will I affect this system?

If you never touch loot nodes, no. It's possible that if you hang out in an area that someone looted you'd prevent it from resetting and restoring the loot but this is unlikely. Spawned NPCs created by (a)MPCs do not have any effect on an area's loot, either. Though these should not be left unattended if not being used for a specific spooking purpose.

Rules versus Etiquette:

To my knowledge it is not against the rules to join a party venturing to a dungeon you have already looted. You will harm the party's loot, however, and it would certainly be disheartening for them to find their loot cut down. This system is an OOC one that exists to prevent looters looting an area every fifteen minutes. It should not be taken as IC, but you can find reasons IC not to join a venture if you know OOC you will affect the experience. Alternately, if you have some OOC rapport with the others in the party you may notify them you have looted the area and determine whether they would rather have you present or not.

If you use this system to deliberately lower the loot for another party for no reason other than to lower the loot, this seems like metagaming in order to grief others. Which would be against the rules.

FAQ

Can I dungeon log as a ninjalooter?

If you are not currently under threat from the spawns within. Logging in combat is not allowed.

Can I leave items in chests or on the floor of dungeons?

Yes. This will not affect spawns or the loot that is spawned in chests.

Can I tell if an area has already been initialised?

There is no hard measure. However, when you enter a cell that wasn't initialised you will be able to see the spawns "fade in" as they are loaded. They will also be grouped together shortly after you enter but will be scattered by their wandering AI shortly thereafter.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:55:38 AM by PlatointheCave »

Hathor

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2021, 02:13:22 AM »
^ major kudos. Thank you!
Manishie Chanteuse - Just a girl who sings.

PrimetheGrime

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2021, 04:52:07 AM »
ok i wrote a thing. if there are questions to answer or things i missed please note so.

Ninjalooting 101

This is guide written to clarify the mechanics of loot spawning for the purpose of cohesion and harmonious play.

What determines loot value?

Loot value grows alongside spawn size. That means at maximum spawn the loot values are at the highest for a dungeon. At minimum it is at its lowest value for a dungeon. There is one exception to this and it will be detailed in this guide.

How does ninjalooting affect loot?

This touches on a concept of "areas" in a module. An area is a space you loaded into. While there are no players in an area it isn't initialised. When a player enters an area it initialises. If all players leave an area and fifteen minutes pass then the area "resets". If you ninjaloot an area without killing any npcs in it and then leave, the area resets after fifteen minutes. If anyone else enters the area after this reset the loot and spawns in the dungeon will be at exactly the same value as when you looted it. If you reenter the area after fifteen minutes the spawns will be exactly the same but the loot in the area will be set to minimum. For this to happen you only need to enter the area before the loot spots have been touched by anyone else. It doesn't matter if you enter after other players intiialised the area. This is a little complicated so here are some scenarios:

a. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes and reenter. Loot is minimum.

b. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes. Someone else enters the area. You follow that person. Loot is minimum.

c. You looted an area. You wait fifteen minutes. Someone else enters the area and opens a chest. You follow that person. The loot in the opened chest has already been spawned, at the time the chest was opened, so you do not affect that loot. But you do affect all chests yet to be opened.

Basically, the moment you touch an area that you looted all of the loot nodes in that area are flagged and will spit out minimum loot. This flagging will last until the area resets. So if you accidentally enter, then leave. As long as no one tries to visit the dungeon within the next fifteen minutes, their loot will be fine.

I looted an area. When can I visit an area again without reducing the loot?

There are two conditions under which it is safe for you to touch an area without killing the loot. The first is after the server is reset.

The second is after the area has been "cleared" by a party. This means a party killed the spawns in the dungeon. Spawns, once cleared, gradually "grow" back. Once a dungeon has been cleared you can visit it again without affecting the loot. Of course, it takes a long time for spawns to "grow" back so in practice it's likely to take 1-2 RL days for you to be able to loot a place again.

I entered an area and found the loot was poor?

Whether it was caused by a ninjalooter or the spawn simply being low, if you open the node but don't take anything you can leave the area and come back after it has reset and/or the spawn has grown without affecting the loot you later find.

Soloing?

While not ninjalooting, it is possible for classes like clerics and druids to solo lower level content. It isn't technically against the rules, but if you kill spawns in order to loot an area then the spawns will be reduced to minimum after the area resets. This means the dungeons cannot be visited by appropriately levelled parties for many hours.

I am an (a)MPC. Will I affect this system?

If you never touch loot nodes, no. It's possible that if you hang out in an area that someone looted you'd prevent it from resetting and restoring the loot but this is unlikely. Spawned NPCs created by (a)MPCs do not have any effect on an area's loot, either. Though these should not be left unattended if not being used for a specific spooking purpose.

Rules versus Etiquette:

To my knowledge it is not against the rules to join a party venturing to a dungeon you have already looted. You will harm the party's loot, however, and it would certainly be disheartening for them to find their loot cut down. This system is an OOC one that exists to prevent looters looting an area every fifteen minutes. It should not be taken as IC, but you can find reasons IC not to join a venture if you know OOC you will affect the experience. Alternately, if you have some OOC rapport with the others in the party you may notify them you have looted the area and determine whether they would rather have you present or not.

If you use this system to deliberately lower the loot for another party for no reason other than to lower the loot, this seems like metagaming in order to grief others. Which would be against the rules.

FAQ

Can I dungeon log as a ninjalooter?

If you are not currently under threat from the spawns within. Logging in combat is not allowed.

Can I leave items in chests or on the floor of dungeons?

Yes. This will not affect spawns or the loot that is spawned in chests.

Can I tell if an area has already been initialised?

There is no hard measure. However, when you enter a cell that wasn't initialised you will be able to see the spawns "fade in" as they are loaded. They will also be grouped together shortly after you enter but will be scattered by their wandering AI shortly thereafter.

+1

Not all heroes wear capes

JustMonika

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 840
Re: Yet another Ninja looting thread
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2021, 06:04:15 AM »
You should define 'Ninjalooting', as new players may not be familiar with the term.

Additionally avoid statements like 'To the best of my knowledge...' either it's against the rules or it isn't, and anything published should clearly establish which way it goes for clarity.