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Author Topic: New Base Class - Beguiler  (Read 3760 times)

Glass Cannon

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2021, 08:34:40 PM »
It doesn’t since that’s hardcoded. Not a bad thing either.

It does make adding Disable Device as a Class Skill a bit of a trap, though.  Unfamiliar players may spend points into it thinking it's a wise investment, but really it's wasted Skill points past the first handful.  I would suggest dropping Disable Device entirely from the skill list, and removing mentions of trap removal, lest that be misleading to newer players.
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Philos

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2021, 09:04:03 PM »
While they may be unable to disable a trap above a DC 35, they can recover them. Sufficiently spec'd and geared Beguilers will be able to make use of the skill, even at the late game content.

PlatointheCave

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2021, 09:10:44 PM »
Weaker than a pure wizard, but still a powerful class.

It's not gonna be super valuable in PvE but that's cool.

I think this is a very cool addition. I love it.

EarlofEtheria

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2021, 01:44:31 AM »
While Mass Haste does allow the Beguiler to be welcomed into undead hunts for example, it does threaten to overpower the archetype of a manipulator. I do worry Mass Haste will dominate a Beguiler's spell uses, turning them into the Metamagic Mass Haste machine of the party rather than a manipulator of minds. Or maybe Mass Haste enables the Beguiler into viability, enabling grind so that Beguilers can focus on driving story? I'm curious what other think about its inclusion beyond that it's good to have.

PrimetheGrime

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2021, 03:13:03 AM »
While Mass Haste does allow the Beguiler to be welcomed into undead hunts for example, it does threaten to overpower the archetype of a manipulator. I do worry Mass Haste will dominate a Beguiler's spell uses, turning them into the Metamagic Mass Haste machine of the party rather than a manipulator of minds. Or maybe Mass Haste enables the Beguiler into viability, enabling grind so that Beguilers can focus on driving story? I'm curious what other think about its inclusion beyond that it's good to have.

Mass haste is a good utility, but it's not the be all end all. It is up to the beguiler to see the other options available to them and if need be, ignore the groups groaning for hastes. There's plenty pf haste users as it is, this is just another option

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2021, 10:09:48 AM »
While Mass Haste does allow the Beguiler to be welcomed into undead hunts for example, it does threaten to overpower the archetype of a manipulator. I do worry Mass Haste will dominate a Beguiler's spell uses, turning them into the Metamagic Mass Haste machine of the party rather than a manipulator of minds. Or maybe Mass Haste enables the Beguiler into viability, enabling grind so that Beguilers can focus on driving story? I'm curious what other think about its inclusion beyond that it's good to have.

If you ask me, the way their skills have shifted, it's a necessity, and it's okay that it will be used a lot where other spells can't be chosen because enemies are immune or whatever else. It is easily the most useful spammable spell on the 6th and 7th circle, and due to the immunities of many enemies on the server, they're lucky to have it. Ethereal jaunt sees some niche uses (tanking traps and baiting enemies) and improved invisibility sphere only really needs to be cast once or twice per rest, if it gets dispelled it can just be replaced with a lower circle cast, but if they can use the regular invis sphere to deliver their party into melee range with enemies several times per dungeon, the risk level of combat drops a ton and you can finish off problem enemies way sooner.

The loss of trapfinding wasn't too severe (traps that only a rogue can detect are rare & anything you can't detect, someone in your party can tank), but the loss of heroism and greater heroism (e.g. from your writeup) was a big deal. Parties generally do not even consider this incredible spell because it's too expensive to cast compared to other necessities. The beguiler would be the perfect class to rely on this spell. But maybe it's wrong that the "manipulator" is making his party feel like heroes or whatever, and maybe it would be a balance problem. Either way, parties will have more spell slots if they have a beguiler, so you might see heroism used more.
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Glass Cannon

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2021, 10:42:32 AM »
The class will sit in a bit of an odd place for PvE.  A wizard is definitely better for PvE, and while a Beguiler will be the best class for lockpicking, the lack of high trap removal creates a strange tension.  They don't have access to certain key spells that a Wizard or Sorceror can use to mitigate trap problems (e.g. protection vs elements, shapechange), either, so they will be dependent on potions & scrolls to get around that.

Where this class really shines is PvP, especially "soft" PvP: Disguise (with both Minor Disguise and Disguise Self), Spot (with C&C and True Seeing), and stealth.  They don't get Insight or the Stealth boosting spells, but again, there's potions for that.

It will be a very interesting class to play.  I'm looking forward to it.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2021, 10:44:43 AM »
My Beguiler will have to convince friends to carry them in dungeons a lot.

A rogue also brings some DPS to the table in a dungeon run, a wizard brings real buffs.

The Beguiler brings a handful of disruption. But that's fine; not every class has to be super useful in PvE. Warmage wont be either, despite the name. I'm glad to see both classes as options for those committed to such niches.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2021, 10:57:52 AM »
In some situations it'll be more than just a carry though. The fighter rogues not having to use lockpicks on those endgame chests will be happy and hasted more often. The jaunt baits/trap tanking can actually be crucial in some parties and dungeons. I think they have a pretty healthy amount of options. Spell slots are one of a party's most valuable resources and a beguiler brings as many as a sorcerer does for certain very important spells, so you might see the other casters the beguiler teams up with get to cast more "fun spells" they normally have to skip in favour of buffing their party, a really positive change if you ask me.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2021, 11:16:28 AM »
Sure, they do stuff that is useful.

But if a party couldn't manage a dungeon, a Beguiler wont make it possible. They're more of a win more addition.

Also, as a regular rogue player I've never had to use expendable tools to open things for a party unless I cut corners in my build. Even then, wizards or bards can buff your OL sufficiently.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2021, 11:22:50 AM »
Yeah, I agree, "a win more addition" is a good way to put it. I would definitely want at least one other full caster in the party already.

I think a lot of people end up cutting corners or just making mistakes in their build when they multiclass purely out of need because they can't find a rogue to party with. I'm just glad we finally have another class that can do that stuff. It might sound strange but I think it'll make the people who actually want to play a more traditional rogue stand out more.
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Artemis

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2021, 01:15:53 PM »
I am looking forward to it. Beguiler was one of my favorite PNP classes, and although its a different type of game here I am very excited to play one.
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2021, 02:09:24 PM »
Any class with access to UMD, stealth, detection, OR support spells is guaranteed to be quite strong. With all of those together, Beguiler can be predicted to shine very brightly. I've written so much here that I've used Spoilers to compartmentalize it:

As Casters:
Spoiler: show
In dungeons, a Beguiler could situationally replace another caster; Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Imp Invis, See Invis, Mind Blank, and Freedom of Movement cover just about all the bare essentials. For non-undead dungeons, a Beguiler has access to the Mind Blank + Bewildering Cloud (or Confusion, or Deep Slumber, etc etc) technique, which can more than make up for lacking Stoneskin and Shield. A party that already has a Cleric, Paladin, or Ranger (classes that would not normally be able to sustain a party's buff needs alone) could reach near-optimal performance with the addition of a Beguiler.


As Skill Monkeys:
Spoiler: show
This is in addition to the Beguiler's ability to serve as a Rogue skill replacer. With Class Skill access to Open Lock, Search, and Disable Trap, there's no content that a Rogue can do that a Beguiler can't. Traps with DCs above a certain point can only be Disarmed by characters with Rogue levels, but as I understand it, Retrieve Trap functions normally for non-Rogues on these traps. Retrieve Trap carries a +10 to the Disable DC, but a Beguiler should have between +4 and +10 to this skill from Intelligence ability score, and gear could easily make up the difference if one remains. Also worth noting that a Beguiler could save a handful of skillpoints by not investing in Open Lock as much as a Rogue might, since a Beguiler can self-cast a high level Knock.


In PvP:
Spoiler: show
The Beguiler will likely be the strongest class for any PvP that does not begin with actual mechanical combat, and does not truly sacrifice the ability to gank. With Stealth and Detection, and cross-classed Set Trap sufficient to use the higher damage traps in the module, Beguilers are as prepared for espionage as Rogues or Bards-- moreso, even, because a Beguiler's self-cast Knock, True Seeing, and Glibness will function better than a Rogue's scroll-cast spells, and where Bards are restricted to Spot (which can't pierce Disguise), Beguilers have it.


Most significantly to me, on top of being able to reach the highest echelons of stealth, roguery, and disguise, and significant support magic, a Beguiler retains the most powerful survivability spells in the game-- Freedom of Movement, Ethereal Jaunt, Premonition, and Time Stop. With five level 9 spell casts per rest at level 20, and spontaneous access to their spells, it seems almost impossible to do anything about a Beguiler who intends to go where/do as they wish to do. Druids would be the hard counter to a sneaky Beguiler, because they could conceivably Spot them and break their Disguise, but aside from calling the Beguiler's place of business to file a formal complaint against their conduct, their options for any sort of mechanical aggression are limited in the extreme. A Beguiler could be expected to have long-lasting self-cast AC and immunity buffs, and would retain the ability to Time Stop up to five times consecutively without the need to premeditate their spell choices as a sneaky Pale Master might. Their lack of Discipline and weak physical saving throws are their predominant weaknesses, and these are mitigated by very high Armor Class and access to Spellcraft+Immunity-granting spells, respectively.

They will struggle to kill things on their own unless they invest in gun feats, Set Trap, and damage-dealing spell scrolls, however.

HouseOfLament

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2021, 02:36:45 PM »
This is great.  I've tried to do something similar to this w/ base Sorc in the past.

I feel like this will eventually come up w/ Beguiler players and that it will be best to make a ruling in advance as to whether it is possible to cast a spell as both still and silent for +2 spell levels in DM supervised events.  For example, can a 6th level Beguiler cast a still, silent charm person as a third level spell as in PNP w/ DM supervision against NPCs?  Other characters who double up on these feats will probably want that option as well.
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Chompskyhonk

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2021, 02:24:17 PM »
I am currently playing a beguiler.

Must say this is the most fun I have had on the server.

I personally do not want to see this class changed.

Having said that, I understand why people may find this class overpowered.

High AC, spell list, available skills.

I would like to hear others’ opinions on the following:

Changing the spell list from intelligence to charisma.

What do you all think?

Kaninchen

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2021, 03:09:21 PM »
If the source material is int based caster, I don't see that being changed.

Chompskyhonk

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2021, 03:21:31 PM »
Good point.

Which is fine by me.

Int based spells allow for more skill point allocation.

I am having a hard time finding the downsides to this class.

What would you say they are?

BraveSirRobin

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Re: New Base Class - Beguiler
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2021, 08:02:08 PM »
This is great.  I've tried to do something similar to this w/ base Sorc in the past.

I feel like this will eventually come up w/ Beguiler players and that it will be best to make a ruling in advance as to whether it is possible to cast a spell as both still and silent for +2 spell levels in DM supervised events.  For example, can a 6th level Beguiler cast a still, silent charm person as a third level spell as in PNP w/ DM supervision against NPCs?  Other characters who double up on these feats will probably want that option as well.

I get the feeling the NWN mechanical limitation will be the implementation of those spells in DM Events, just for consistency, because they typically still require you to cast the actual spell on a target. They don't usually want to allow exceptions to what is not mechanically possible with spell DCs.