New Base Class - Warmage

[Glass Cannon]

You don't have to play a wizard to do basic math

Yet you clearly haven't done the basic math. It's not a "little extra damage" -- it's DOUBLE the damage.  Against the most common Acid Fog counterstrategy (getting 15 Acid DR), it's effectively increasing the damage that gets through from ~3 to ~21 -- a 700% increase.

If I'm wrong, then stop hiding in generalities and give me a concrete counter-example.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Blade barrier and creeping doom both exist and are deadly spells which kill players all the time. They are not the only ones. That's not hidden knowledge. Wizard's not gonna get weaker when a class with no dispels and next to no CC comes into the game but deals 20 or so extra damage, so yeah, double can be a little when we're talking such low numbers.

[Glass Cannon]

Allow me to introduce you to Creeping Doom.   It may not be counted as a "cloud" spell, but it does the same thing for practical purposes.

Creeping Doom can get to 80 damage a tick, sure, but it's a Druid spell.

[Glass Cannon]

Blade barrier and creeping doom both exist and are deadly spells which kill players all the time. They are not the only ones. That's not hidden knowledge. Wizard's not gonna get weaker when a class with no dispels and next to no CC comes into the game but deals 20 or so extra damage, so yeah, double can be a little when we're talking such low numbers.

Bold of you to assume my character isn't going around with Stoneskin up all the time to counter Blade Barrier, or doesn't simply have a Ref save high enough to be immune to the spell.

Creeping Doom does get to an impressive amount of damage, sure, but it'll take 4 turns to do so -- that's a lot more breathing room to escape than Acid Fog, which a level 20 Warmage will drop on ~36 acid damage per turn straight on turn 1.

Oh, and a Druid can't have IGMS prepared for when the target tries to Jaunt out of the Creeping Doom.  Whereas a Warmage can have IGMS prepared so that Jaunt is in turn countered.

Nope, not the same.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Druids, the class who have dangerous CC spells which target every save, not unlike wizards, don't rely on up front damage to kill people in PvP or in PvE, but the capability to stun them for several minutes of real life time.

This is a class who needs to use consumables for invis, see invis, and haste we're talking about. Its gank setup is more difficult than wizard out of the box and the reward is marginally better.

I'm not assuming anything about stoneskin or reflex saves, by the way, I just have realistic expectations of what a single spell can do. They can be combined with other spells and melee presence if you're flinging spells at players to kill them. Also, freedom of movement is a much harder counter to acid fog than stoneskin is to blade barrier.

[Kaninchen]

You're Right, druids instead get a DC 25 grease to prevent you from even casting the Jaunt...or get out of the creepign doom. Also...stone hold, for reasons.

The point being classes can already do similar things that you are concerned about being too powerful, and the game isn't broken over it.

[Marcus Weyland]

It is a lot of damage potential, but if I were going to give that sort of power to any class, it would be to one that can't buff itself in any capacity, and which cannot stealth.

You might be in danger but you will at least see it coming.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be caught off guard and unbuffed by the 75% slow in acid fog with that damage, true, but I wouldn't want to be caught in a saveless slow by a wizard or sorcerer anyway, or any of the other nasty tricks that any other class in the game can pull off, which are many more than the not so nasty tricks. At that point, anyone's odds of survival are very low, even if they chug potions in the perfect order to try and escape.

[Glass Cannon]

Druids, the class who have dangerous CC spells which target every save, not unlike wizards, don't rely on up front damage to kill people in PvP or in PvE, but the capability to stun them for several minutes of real life time.

Yes.  Druids target saves.  We're on a server where it's easy to get lots of enchanted gear to stack up your saves.  Even DC 25 Grease is not that wild on PotM.

Acid Fog offers no saving throw and no spell resistance.

This is a class who needs to use consumables for invis, see invis, and haste we're talking about. Its gank setup is more difficult than wizard out of the box and the reward is marginally better.

It's not "marginally" better.  If it were merely marginally better, I wouldn't be raising it.  It's twice better, to the point that it utterly negates the acid resistance strategy.

This shouldn't be hard to understand.  It's basic math.

Also, freedom of movement is a much harder counter to acid fog than stoneskin is to blade barrier.

Freedom of Movement lasts 1 Hr + 1 turn/level, SS/GSS lasts  1 Hr + 1 Hr/level.  It's far easier to counter Blade Barrier than it is to counter Acid Fog, unless your target is AFK.

[SardineTheAncestor]

The idea that people don't extend their vital survival spells is pretty ludicrous to me if they're expecting to be ganked. The warmage also has to get the initiative which slips easier since they can't timestop to position themselves, their haste is through potions or has to come from someone else, same with invis, the list goes on.

Wizard's just not getting nerfed because of warmage's addition. If anything, EO will just change the way this interacts with spells that deal damage more than once, maybe halving it or something if he sees it as necessary. Ultimately, you don't have to be completely immune to all damage to survive a gank. Even a misted magic acid fog can be escaped in a single round of normal movement if only you are immune to slows, which, if you're worried about warmage high enough level to maximise this spell, you probably are almost all the time or you have potions handy if he spooks you. If you're on equal terms and you want an equal chance to escape or fight back, this is one of the least one-sided fights you could pick.

edit: just to expand on the point above - yes, everyone can get one save to the point of immunity to most lower circle spells, but not everyone can get two, and very few classes can be immune to all three saves simultaneously. If you know who you're ganking, you probably know their class if you have a solid reason to kill them, so you know what they're weak to even when they are buffed.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I think Warmages are going to be exactly what's advertised on the label. Extremely dangerous threats that you'll see coming from a mile away. That being said, they look like they're probably going to be the weakest class to ganks, honestly, since they're the only casters who won't have the benefit of walking around with extended stoneskins, premonitions, etc on them.

I'm actually kinda interested to see how this plays out.

[mccarthy00]

Armor Proficiency is nice, but i still see a sorc on the same level out preforming this class. Losing time stop/stone skin and premonition.

Added dmg does not really make up for loss of survivability.

[Dardonas]

Armor Proficiency is nice, but i still see a sorc on the same level out preforming this class. Losing time stop/stone skin and premonition.

Added dmg does not really make up for loss of survivability.

Exactly my thoughts.  A Sorc hits all the notes and has more feats and survivability.  That said, I am interested to see if the extra damage makes them somewhat more viable for more dungeon strategies. 

[zDark Shadowz]

I think they should have grease and web as control spells, alongside the Evards. They are generally the spells used together to hold down enemies so you can get your fireballs etc.

Thats about the only suggestion I have for this class. Evocations and Conjurations are just generally fun, being able to set things up so you don't hit your allies with proper planning even more so.

Negative Energy Burst (level 3) Would also shine with this class, perhaps over Poison if you are trying to limit the selection.

And then a death knight war mage can self heal in the middle of combat while damaging everyone attacking them XD love it.

[HM01]

Spoiler: show

I think they should have grease and web as control spells, alongside the Evards. They are generally the spells used together to hold down enemies so you can get your fireballs etc.

Thats about the only suggestion I have for this class. Evocations and Conjurations are just generally fun, being able to set things up so you don't hit your allies with proper planning even more so.

Negative Energy Burst (level 3) Would also shine with this class, perhaps over Poison if you are trying to limit the selection.

And then a death knight war mage can self heal in the middle of combat while damaging everyone attacking them XD love it.

shhhh.... 

[mccarthy00]

would be neat if they had the ability to make one or two Aoe spells not hit friendly PCs once a rest, i think if given that ability it would see a lot of party play.

[foxtale]

Creeping Doom does get to an impressive amount of damage, sure, but it'll take 4 turns to do so -- that's a lot more breathing room to escape than Acid Fog, which a level 20 Warmage will drop on ~36 acid damage per turn straight on turn 1.

A single spell can never gain this extra damage more than once per casting.

If the feat is implemented exactly as it says on the tin, the Acid Fog will do ~36 damage on round 1, but the normal amount after that.

[Dardonas]

A single spell can never gain this extra damage more than once per casting.

If the feat is implemented exactly as it says on the tin, the Acid Fog will do ~36 damage on round 1, but the normal amount after that.

This is incorrect.  For acid fog, it will deal the extra damage to all enemies once per round, so once per tick.

For instance, a Fireball deals the extra damage to all creatures in the area it affects. However, if a warmage casts Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, only the first missile gains the extra damage. If a spell deals damage for more than 1 round, it deals this extra damage in each round.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Seems well balanced to me. Massive damage increase but also taking a huge hit without premonition, timestop, Shapechange, hastes, invisibility, etc. My larger concern is that this class seems less party-oriented and more soloing-oriented. We are looking at a class that could pretty easily solo from lvl 2 to 19, and a class that I fear will have a hard time finding many welcoming parties. “So, you’re a mage who can’t ward at all and your best spells will melt us? Pass.” They aren’t dissimilar in party dynamics to a high damage output archer, which in my experience is one of the more difficult classes to find people to adventure with. That said, I think it’s a fun and interesting class to play. Definitely plenty of feasible party dynamic options out there for it, just might be difficult convincing other players/characters of such.

[foxtale]

A single spell can never gain this extra damage more than once per casting.

If the feat is implemented exactly as it says on the tin, the Acid Fog will do ~36 damage on round 1, but the normal amount after that.

This is incorrect.  For acid fog, it will deal the extra damage to all enemies once per round, so once per tick.

For instance, a Fireball deals the extra damage to all creatures in the area it affects. However, if a warmage casts Isaac's Greater Missile Storm, only the first missile gains the extra damage. If a spell deals damage for more than 1 round, it deals this extra damage in each round.

Missed that, thank you.

[Fungal Artillery]

I would like Negative Energy Burst to be considered as an addition as a 3rd lvl spell.
The spell selection has necromancy in it, but only higher tiers of it. And this is a good bread and butter spell.

[tylernwn]

My only question is, when can we play it?!?!

[tylernwn]

My larger concern is that this class seems less party-oriented and more soloing-oriented. We are looking at a class that could pretty easily solo from lvl 2 to 19, and a class that I fear will have a hard time finding many welcoming parties. “So, you’re a mage who can’t ward at all and your best spells will melt us? Pass.” They aren’t dissimilar in party dynamics to a high damage output archer, which in my experience is one of the more difficult classes to find people to adventure with. That said, I think it’s a fun and interesting class to play. Definitely plenty of feasible party dynamic options out there for it, just might be difficult convincing other players/characters of such.

I really doubt you would have any problem finding a party. I already play this “class”, but as a sorcerer. I have never had trouble finding people to play with. Folks just have to adjust their expectations. As for warding, I already pretend to not know any ward spells half the time, because I don’t want to be a dedicated warding robot. So I welcome any change that pushes casters out of that role.

But like you say, it looks like a very fun class with its own share of downsides.

[vronsky]

Looks like a cool concept.

Do you think that having the Light Armor and INT bonuses at 1, sets this class up to be a multiclass powerbuild go-to?
Would it hedge against this by taking its INT damage bonus and Light Armor bonus up a few levels, to prevent grabbing the 1-2 level dip?

Pale Master / Wizard / Warmage (1)

Could see Pale Master Warmage being a concept that gets apped very frequently due to the way these two classes fit with the 10/1 5 rules. Essentially get all of the Warmage bonuses for little investment, and stack them nicely with PM bonuses to multiply both class strengths.

[tylernwn]

Just a comment,

The spell selection looks amazing. Although Is there any chance we can add the bigby spells to their spell list as well? At least the 6th and 7th circle ones?