New Base Class - Warmage

[BraveSirRobin]

My werewolf AMPC had access to SR potions and drank them regularly.  Even at NCE levels, the spell resist was regularly bypassed enough in a noticeable manner by warmages and whoever else.  I also have never heard of someone chugging elemental warding potions to counter spell damage.  If a person is chugging potions while a warmage piles more spells on them, they are going to eventually die while they stand still face-tanking so much raw damage.

Warmages now also have access to Orb of Magic Damage, or whatever the spell is called, which does 6d10 magic damage plus the warmage edge's damage.  They get access to this at, I believe, level 10.  There is also a lesser version at level 6 or 8.

There are greater potion variants that can handle it a bit better. But actual spells will be a problem.

[Kaerghen]

I have some issues with how the warmage plays, especially in a group and I think a large contributor is the fact that NWN is played in real-time.

While wizards, clerics, etc. can use their spellslots to buff the party pre-fight, knowing they've contributed a lot to the group, warmages can not. They are here for "tons of damage".
In order for a warmage to get a good position to cast spells in a meaningful way, you are often forced to get into a very dangerous place, AKA the front-line.
Ironically, that's a place where warmages really don't want to be as they lack the HP and more importantly the defensive capabilities of most other classes. In fact, they are one of the squishiest classes available, which is not as much of a problem in PnP because of the precise positioning and aiming inherent to round based combat.
Another huge factor is friendly-fire. The hectic nature of real-time combat  with the "combat dance" often means that you can not properly aim your spells without risking to hit your allies as well.
So a lot of times, in order to properly contribute, you are choosing between recklessly risking your life or that of your party and staying back, having to waste spell slots on single target spells.

I think the warmage is suffering hard by how NWN compares to PnP. While the resting mechanic works in his favor and balances out the more frequent encounters, the real-time combat makes actually using these slots more stressful than rewarding.

At least that's my experience.

[FinalHeaven]

Warmage has been my first caster character in the history of my nwn career.  I'm someone who hated the idea of being relegated to a buff slave.

I made a Warmage this last nce just for fun and was pleasantly surprised.  I quite enjoy being able to dish out damage as a spellcaster and I personally didn't have any concerns about friendly fire, I just didn't use spells that could hurt allies.  Looking at later levels, the damage potential is only going up and I suspect a Warmage is a soloing god at a certain point.

I do find the lack of a few spells a bit odd, but that's it.

[Maragrouf]

Warmage feels so satisfying when you actually get to use your big kabooms AoE without any allies in the blast zone. And contrary to all other casters (and that's its class feature), the Spell Casting Ability has an importance outside Spell Slots and ACTUALLY BOOST YOUR DAMAGE! Warmage/Extra Edge is a tasty feat that you do feel when getting some buff to your Int... and even without any buff because of how it scales with Spell Levels.

As for friendly fire, I've actually learned to aim the spells to make sure Hostiles are hit while Allies aren't, and I honestly like that subtely compared to Wizard or Sorcerer who could have to aim (especially with Fireball, Icestorm and other AoE) but wouldn't cause a TPK because of additionnal damages based on Int. Like... with just 18 Int, you add 12 Damage to any Third Level spells. So you better make sure your spells are aimed properly and to learn how to place yourself to use Cone/Straight line spells.

[Vissy]

Warmage is a fun class to play, and it starts coming online at roughly level 6 where they unlock fireballs and ice storms. The biggest problem a warmage really has is that allies clear content too quickly when properly warded, and by the time you cast a damage spell, they'll just run into it because they already killed the mobs. Single-target damage against boss mobs is one of the Warmage's strengths.

[Maffa]

... dont ward your meat shields so you have time to go ballistic. the solution sounds simple to me.

[remnar]

Yeah, warmage is a very good class.  Probably in the top 16 of base classes.  Takes a bit to get good, though, like any caster, but without the crutch of buffs.  Just throw magic missiles until you get good.

[MatticusCaesar]

Warmages can be pretty good up close.  The keys are threefold:
1) Patience - let your melee pals attract trouble first
2) Leveraging high Concentration
3) Use of Defensive Casting to not draw AoOs

Like Final Heaven above, I love the class for its non-buffer role

[ObsidianOrb]

Warmage is a fun class to play, and it starts coming online at roughly level 6 where they unlock fireballs and ice storms. The biggest problem a warmage really has is that allies clear content too quickly when properly warded, and by the time you cast a damage spell, they'll just run into it because they already killed the mobs. Single-target damage against boss mobs is one of the Warmage's strengths.

If your finding that your targets are being taken out by the group before your spell finishes, or while it is traveling through the air, then your wasting spells on easy targets.

[Wei Tu Hung]

Good class to play in the intended glass cannon ranged blaster role. It seems though that this is the only role the class can fill currently. Some of my thoughts after testing:

Some of the spells in the small spell list don't seem to fit the ranged blaster role [tensers transformation and several on hit retaliation spells like fire shield] and the 1/2 BAB limits the versatility of the character. Access to light/medium armor and the level 20 improved combat casting class feature are seldom required when most ranged blasters wear mage robes for buffs and a ranged blaster warmage doesn't want to be any where near the front-line. As it is now the only useful class feature is warmage edge.

A change to 3/4 BAB would improve class versatility without affecting the intended role, it would enable the class to realistically use more of the spells in its limited selection and make more use of the armor feats. Makes sense that a magic user trained in armor would train with weapons. A 3/4 BAB warmage class would still have limited stats/feat choices so could only build for 2 of the 3 so it doesn't seem overpowered:
1. improve long ranged blasting
2. Improve front-line blasting and melee
3. Improve survivability

[Ryujin]

Warmage is already quite strong. The on hit retaliation spells are merely for your defense so you can’t get pummeled to death so easily as you dont have other wards.

A Warmage is also not meant for the frontlines. They are an artillery/blaster class that specializes in that role specifically.

Warmages can use armor that gives them that slight survivability over other mages, since they can’t ward themselves.

The BAB change could allow them to use their touch spells a lot more effectively, which is one of the more annoying things for them. Currently they often have to combine True Strike with those spells in order to have any effect. I could see that being a good option.

Apart from that it’s my opinion that Warmage doesn’t need anything else. They are a “war mage” after all. It makes sense that they are a “glass cannon ranged blaster”, and frankly that’s all they need to be. And what gives them their appeal IMO

[Wei Tu Hung]

Warmage is already quite strong. The on hit retaliation spells are merely for your defense so you can’t get pummeled to death so easily as you dont have other wards.

A Warmage is also not meant for the frontlines. They are an artillery/blaster class that specializes in that role specifically.

Warmages can use armor that gives them that slight survivability over other mages, since they can’t ward themselves.

The BAB change could allow them to use their touch spells a lot more effectively, which is one of the more annoying things for them. Currently they often have to combine True Strike with those spells in order to have any effect. I could see that being a good option.

Apart from that it’s my opinion that Warmage doesn’t need anything else. They are a “war mage” after all. It makes sense that they are a “glass cannon ranged blaster”, and frankly that’s all they need to be. And what gives them their appeal IMO

Agreed, the main appeal is artillery blaster. The only change I suggest is 3/4 BAB to improve touch spells and to have an extra attack which improves tensers transformation.

[bloodless]

True Strike into Touch attack is how these things typically work in the broader 3.x (and derivatives like PathFinder) system. I don't see any good reason why warmage should be an exception - get your actual warder to spare you some proper attack buffs and make up the difference with TS when needed. Same as anyone else.

[zDark Shadowz]

Is the Warmage edge deliberately differing from the source material? Additional damage for their intelligence modifier isn't meant to be per spell level as far as I can tell.

[bloodless]

Is the Warmage edge deliberately differing from the source material? Additional damage for their intelligence modifier isn't meant to be per spell level as far as I can tell.

If I were to guess, it's to compensate for the several other major features that the class doesn't have here but does in its original form. What is more interesting to me is that it's actually supposed to be a Cha caster (though Int is still used for Edge).

[Ryujin]

True Strike into Touch attack is how these things typically work in the broader 3.x (and derivatives like PathFinder) system. I don't see any good reason why warmage should be an exception - get your actual warder to spare you some proper attack buffs and make up the difference with TS when needed. Same as anyone else.

I don't think Warmage needs any real buff to what they are. I have played one to level 18 and had a blast (pun intended).

That said, True Strike into touch attack can feel clunky, if not a bit annoying at times. But as you said, they do not need to be an exception to this compared to other casters. - As a warmage you can't rely on your warder to provide you with attack buffs however, as they will often (If not near always) prioritize just about anyone else over the warmage with buffs like that.

Agreed, the main appeal is artillery blaster. The only change I suggest is 3/4 BAB to improve touch spells and to have an extra attack which improves tensers transformation.

I don't see why warmage would ever need an extra attack on Tensers? If you use Tensers to go melee on a warmage you're throwing away all of the potential and stuff that makes warmage unique, not to mention it would simply not be as good due to the lack of wards that they get.

[Wei Tu Hung]

True Strike into Touch attack is how these things typically work in the broader 3.x (and derivatives like PathFinder) system. I don't see any good reason why warmage should be an exception - get your actual warder to spare you some proper attack buffs and make up the difference with TS when needed. Same as anyone else.

A reason for an exception is there is a limitation in the game engine and not with the PnP rulesets. Tensers was changed for PotM to add attack bonus, up to the difference between BAB and character level, which does not add attacks per round (game engine limitation). Vanilla tensers set higher attacks per round.

The change to 3/4 BAB is to work around the game engine limitation to provide the extra attack per round. This would make Strength/Intelligence Warmages who specialize for the frontline melee/touch blasting role more viable. The actual BAB increase is minor without tensers and with PotM tensers the modfied BAB is still the same as it would be for 1/2 BAB (as it's difference between BAB and character level). In both cases there is still a need for Warder AB buffs and TS. Without the change the only way to sensibly build is Dex/Int for ranged artillery/blasting and some of its limited spells are just not that useful, viable or fun.

The change is not about making the class better at what it's already good at; it's about slightly improving what the class is bad at to at least consider using melee touch spells, short range cone spells, retaliation spells, tensers and parry mode for specific situations. It stays true to the glass cannon damage dealer role and is not overpowered.

[MatticusCaesar]

My personal opinion is that rather than a full conversion to 3/4 AB, I'd rather see a feat or two the Warmage could invest in to improve touch & ranged touch attacks with spells.

Some feats like:

Practiced Touch Attack:  Warmage only, Available at level 1 only: The Warmage's academy training included practiced aim of certain spells to such an extent that he gets an additional (+2? +4?) to hit with melee and ranged touch attacks)

Improved Touch Attack: Any Arcane Caster, prereq (2nd or 3rd?) level spellcasting:  The Caster has continued to practice her contact and aim with touch and ranged touch attack spells.  She now receives a +1 for every 4 arcane caster levels to hit when making touch and ranged touch attacks with her spells.

Maybe there are permutations of those that would work, but I'm not sure an AB upgrade for a Warmage is the answer.  They are trained in arcane warfare and a few simple weapons, not direct combat.  If they need it for short term engagements, they eventually get Tenser's Transformation anyway. 

Maybe there's an idea...  a spell option - something of a "Lesser Tenser's Transformation" they can get as a 3rd level spell that gives the caster a 3/4 AB for a short time.

[Ryujin]

My personal opinion is that rather than a full conversion to 3/4 AB, I'd rather see a feat or two the Warmage could invest in to improve touch & ranged touch attacks with spells.

Some feats like:

Practiced Touch Attack:  Warmage only, Available at level 1 only: The Warmage's academy training included practiced aim of certain spells to such an extent that he gets an additional (+2? +4?) to hit with melee and ranged touch attacks)

Improved Touch Attack: Any Arcane Caster, prereq (2nd or 3rd?) level spellcasting:  The Caster has continued to practice her contact and aim with touch and ranged touch attack spells.  She now receives a +1 for every 4 arcane caster levels to hit when making touch and ranged touch attacks with her spells.

Maybe there are permutations of those that would work, but I'm not sure an AB upgrade for a Warmage is the answer.  They are trained in arcane warfare and a few simple weapons, not direct combat.  If they need it for short term engagements, they eventually get Tenser's Transformation anyway. 

Maybe there's an idea...  a spell option - something of a "Lesser Tenser's Transformation" they can get as a 3rd level spell that gives the caster a 3/4 AB for a short time.

I like the idea of the feats. I feel like warmage's touch attacks could use some love seeing as they have to rely on true strike too much in later stages or against very powerful enemies.

The warmage unique feat could be something neat, it would make sense that in their training to master their offensive magic they have also trained their precision after all.

The spell sounds a bit... odd, however. I don't think changing the BAB would be a valid answer in any case. I stand by my point/opinion that a warmage just... shouldn't be doing anything on the frontlines if they can avoid it. Artillery class and all

[bestbardna]

To be completely honest, the class in 3.5 tabletop is hot garbage unless you're using some pretty cheesy builds like the Rainbow Warsnake. The reason for the change to Int x Spell level is because without it, the edge is absolutely meaningless when there's no stat boosting gear. Oh great, I took 20 levels of warmage instead of wizard and the tradeoff for my INCREDIBLY limited skillset is an extra 8 points of damage on my spells? Yippee. Good thing this baddie only has several hundred hit points.

Also, the damage on edge is limited by the maximum damage of the spell itself (plus 1x your int), so although it's damage tends to be on the higher end of the dice rolls, it's not exceeding the max cap by an excessive amount. Warmage edge is fantastic with the changes, and makes the class an attractive choice.

Do warmages need 3/4 BAB? In my opinion, no. Invest in Dexterity if you want to hit those orbs. True strike is a free cast when using chains of the red warmage (And if you're a warmage, why WOULDN'T you use chains of the red warmage?). Hell, if you're using Red Warmage Chains, you can cast true strike and actually FIRE OFF TWO ORBS before it expires. I mean. It's a really tight window, but it's possible. It's the same reason monks in vanilla dip wizard. One round of true strike turns your flurry of misses into a flurry of slap them buggers up.

Do we need feats to improve touch attacks? I mean, I don't think we do. I suppose we could throw in Weapon Focus (Touch Attack) and Weapon Focus (Ray/Ranged Touch), those actually exist in 3e/3.5. Of course, I might be overruled on that. Also, making it so that only a 1st level character could take it is probably a bad idea.

All in all, Warmage is in a really solid place right now. It's a high risk, high reward class. You're a glass cannon, sure. Running into Melee is probably not a good idea, double sure. But if you do your research IG to learn enemy's elemental weaknesses (or if you're super adventurous, you can do some test runs), you can really bring the pain and turn a difficult encounter into an easy one. But most classes can do that. People do troll runs all the time where they gather all the trolls in one spot and trivialize them with a collection of basic spells. Preparation is the key to success in PotM, and limitations breeds creativity. When it comes to spellcasting, there are fewer classes more limited than the Warmage (and the beguiler), so most Warmages know how to get the most mileage out of their spells because they've been working with a very narrow framework for most of their careers.

In closing, I like my warmages the way they are, dagnabbit.

[Wei Tu Hung]

My personal opinion is that rather than a full conversion to 3/4 AB, I'd rather see a feat or two the Warmage could invest in to improve touch & ranged touch attacks with spells.

Some feats like:

Practiced Touch Attack:  Warmage only, Available at level 1 only: The Warmage's academy training included practiced aim of certain spells to such an extent that he gets an additional (+2? +4?) to hit with melee and ranged touch attacks)

Improved Touch Attack: Any Arcane Caster, prereq (2nd or 3rd?) level spellcasting:  The Caster has continued to practice her contact and aim with touch and ranged touch attack spells.  She now receives a +1 for every 4 arcane caster levels to hit when making touch and ranged touch attacks with her spells.

Maybe there are permutations of those that would work, but I'm not sure an AB upgrade for a Warmage is the answer.  They are trained in arcane warfare and a few simple weapons, not direct combat.  If they need it for short term engagements, they eventually get Tenser's Transformation anyway. 

Maybe there's an idea...  a spell option - something of a "Lesser Tenser's Transformation" they can get as a 3rd level spell that gives the caster a 3/4 AB for a short time.

I like the idea of the feats. I feel like warmage's touch attacks could use some love seeing as they have to rely on true strike too much in later stages or against very powerful enemies.

The warmage unique feat could be something neat, it would make sense that in their training to master their offensive magic they have also trained their precision after all.

The spell sounds a bit... odd, however. I don't think changing the BAB would be a valid answer in any case. I stand by my point/opinion that a warmage just... shouldn't be doing anything on the frontlines if they can avoid it. Artillery class and all

I like the idea of touch focus feats as well. Part of my reasoning for the BAB change though is that 3/4 BAB is already in game and potentially takes a lot less development time to implement than several new feats and a new "lesser tensers" spell. If there is enough development resource available then sure feats, otherwise BAB change (maximum effect for minimal effort).

The existing class features, 4 armor feats and improved combat casting feats, are all incentives for being on the front-line. These features are not used at all as ranged artillery and the only useful feature for ranged artillery is warmage edge.

I'll stand by view that with a simple BAB change there is potential for expanding the versatility and improving the weaknesses of the class to build for a front-line melee/spell blaster; which is a role that is not currently covered in PotM. A frontline melee/blaster warmage seems to fit even more with the intent of the high risk high reward glass cannon class than ranged artillery.

Charging to the frontline with a fire sword, retaliation shield spells, blasting touch/cone/AOE centered on caster damage spells and finally activating tensers for the temporary hit points to trade damage in melee seems like a really fun way to play.

[bloodless]

The incentive for armor is how the mob ai targets low ac enemies. Warmage is first and foremost a wizard (with a ridiculously overturned dmg output) - weapon focus for touch attacks is something every mage in the game would benefit from. Breaking the class even more with extra attacks for it exclusively? That's just further bad balancing.

[Ryujin]

The incentive for armor is how the mob ai targets low ac enemies. Warmage is first and foremost a wizard (with a ridiculously overturned dmg output) - weapon focus for touch attacks is something every mage in the game would benefit from. Breaking the class even more with extra attacks for it exclusively? That's just further bad balancing.

I agree with the statement that Warmage -really- does not need and extra APR. That said, weapon focus for touch attacks is something they could use which would not be too unbalanced IMO. It would make sense for them to have/be able to get something like it as well. As for balancing, could indeed make such available to all caster classes instead of solely for Warmage. But i would say the idea of the feat would make the most sense for warmages seeing as they have dedicated their life to practicing how to use their (very limited amount of) offensive spells to their greatest effect, it would make sense that they also trained precision in this regard, no?

[bloodless]

They're not trained to use those spells. They're trained to know them, engraved in their brains to the exclusion of near everything else (the pen and paper variant allows for independent study we don't have here). In essence a level 1 warmage already knows all his circle 9 spells, he just can't actually use them yet. As for the WF Ray, yes I meant that as a general addition to the server, available to everyone like all the other WF feats. I am firmly against anything that adds exclusively more power to warmage as they are now.

[bestbardna]

I like the idea of touch focus feats as well. Part of my reasoning for the BAB change though is that 3/4 BAB is already in game and potentially takes a lot less development time to implement than several new feats and a new "lesser tensers" spell. If there is enough development resource available then sure feats, otherwise BAB change (maximum effect for minimal effort).

I feel like this is by design. Warmages -should- be relying on quickened true strikes at higher levels of the game. It either incentivizes them to use the auto-quicken gear (And all the penalties that come with it), or using the quicken spell feat if they want to avoid the hefty maluses that come with the gear at the cost of higher level spell slots. Both styles of play are equally valid, and I don't think Warmages need a buff to their attack bonus to land these hits. Anything other than a +1 from a weapon focus like feat would be too much, and this feat should be made available to all spellcasters, not just warmages.

The existing class features, 4 armor feats and improved combat casting feats, are all incentives for being on the front-line. These features are not used at all as ranged artillery and the only useful feature for ranged artillery is warmage edge.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Part of the modified AI on this server is that enemies will avoid the front liners if there's a squishy target in the back with poor AC. The ability to wear armour makes the warmage a less attractive target, allowing them to continue to fling off artillery rather than running around like a chicken with it's head cut off. I've travelled with blaster wizard/sorcerers as a warmage, and the enemies tend to charge right at them after they cast a spell.

I'll stand by view that with a simple BAB change there is potential for expanding the versatility and improving the weaknesses of the class to build for a front-line melee/spell blaster; which is a role that is not currently covered in PotM. A frontline melee/blaster warmage seems to fit even more with the intent of the high risk high reward glass cannon class than ranged artillery.

Warmages can already excel in this role through the use of Tenser's Transformation,a modification in the usual "Blaster Build" that warmages tend to gravitate towards, and out-of-kit buffs. Nothing's stopping a warmage from investing heavily in combat feats rather than spell feats, and with their int scores, it's a no-brainer to pick up improved expertise even if you're playing a blaster build.

Warmages have two options if they want to front line currently. They can get buffed by their wizard allies to bring the pain, or they can rely on consumables (these are the out-of-kit buffs I mentioned earlier). Monks are much in the same boat when it comes to front-line capability. The difference is that even a "melee" warmage can always fall back on being a ranged damage dealer with little to no notice and investment. If you want to strengthen your melee capabilities further, then you should take a few levels in a melee oriented class, or play a different class altogether.

Charging to the frontline with a fire sword, retaliation shield spells, blasting touch/cone/AOE centered on caster damage spells and finally activating tensers for the temporary hit points to trade damage in melee seems like a really fun way to play.

There is nothing in the Warmage's kit that will prevent you from playing this way. By all means, buff up and charge into melee. Will you have the attacks per round a real frontliner has? No, but you shouldn't. Your time on the front lines should be limited, because you're a warmage, and not a fighter. You have other roles that you can fill the rest of the time.