Author Topic: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals  (Read 3500 times)

JustMonika

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2021, 09:36:08 AM »
Just a random dev suggestion, it seems that number of words spoken in a rental period can be saved as a local variable on a key to automatically gauge whether a rental is being used for roleplay or not.  There is kind of a disconnect however where landlord NPCs in the game world really have no motivation to seek new and potentially disasterous tenants for reasons that do not contribute in any meaningful way to their bottom line.


This sounds like it would cause an immense amount of lag.

Glass Cannon

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2021, 03:36:35 PM »
More rentals would be good, anyway; it'd give people more opportunity to spend their money.
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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2021, 03:37:24 PM »
Mmm. More plot locked doors.
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Wilkins1952

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2021, 04:13:19 PM »
I would love to see more rentals... given that they can be used to add to RP even if they are only used sparingly I would say another four or five in each area could be good as well as adding some in places such as Ghastria and Blaustein. Perhaps even sithicus. I know people will argue it does not fit the lore but bending that for the sake of RP is never a bad thing.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2021, 07:53:31 PM »
Mmm. More plot locked doors.

I agree, the system is definitely flawed as is. The bigger problem right now is that there are so few for the vast amount of players that they are the cause of envy. Expanding an imperfect system to deal with that, though, comes with its own consequences.

I don't think there's a perfect solution to this problem without overhauling the system, the actual problem being that factions need more incentive to exist, work together, and grow overall. Most break up after just a few months when they've just started getting traction.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2021, 09:52:26 PM »
Mmm. More plot locked doors.

I agree, the system is definitely flawed as is. The bigger problem right now is that there are so few for the vast amount of players that they are the cause of envy. Expanding an imperfect system to deal with that, though, comes with its own consequences.

I don't think there's a perfect solution to this problem without overhauling the system, the actual problem being that factions need more incentive to exist, work together, and grow overall. Most break up after just a few months when they've just started getting traction.

Plot locked doors aren't really an issue. If anything, it means that rentables cannot be used to corpsehide, and it requires a DM to perform hijinks against. Just like it is required in faction bases of plot factions, per the server ruleset-- Even if you are beyond calculation to be able to be spotted by the NPCs, you are not allowed to stealth into buildings such as the Gendarmerie without DM oversight.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2021, 09:58:23 PM »
That's one thing that isn't a problem, but the developers are firm so far on the stance that they don't want people to cloister themselves away in private locations like these. From their previous posts, the theme I noticed was that we're encouraged to use rentables as recurring event venues, and their use as player faction bases/meeting locations is accepted, but as private housing, they are merely tolerated.
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Heresyteller

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2021, 07:55:28 AM »
That's one thing that isn't a problem, but the developers are firm so far on the stance that they don't want people to cloister themselves away in private locations like these. From their previous posts, the theme I noticed was that we're encouraged to use rentables as recurring event venues, and their use as player faction bases/meeting locations is accepted, but as private housing, they are merely tolerated.
It shouldn't be tolerated then, I think some spaces in port or in Vallaki are severely unused.

Sinthepie

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2021, 11:30:08 AM »
Honestly I think a decent solution would be to maybe add a few barebones rentals and not make them customizable. Make the rentals fit for the area they are in. Does it make sense that the renters would want to customize? Yes. But it also makes it a hassle for the dm that has to customize it. Nothing can stop a player faction that has the chance to own properties from owning them, even if it is through applications. Make them simple, make them usable and decent. Maybe they could be small enough that even if you did customize it, because of its size you couldn't add much OR like the rooms in Governor's Hotel where you can rent them, but you don't have the need to change them because of how they are.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2021, 08:22:31 PM »
That's one thing that isn't a problem, but the developers are firm so far on the stance that they don't want people to cloister themselves away in private locations like these. From their previous posts, the theme I noticed was that we're encouraged to use rentables as recurring event venues, and their use as player faction bases/meeting locations is accepted, but as private housing, they are merely tolerated.

Keep in mind, Dementlieu is a setting where private abodes/housing/etc is a bit more necessary for nobles/etc to plot and/or do their things. That's why it has the Governor's Hotel, Tenements, and even Novak's added recently as recurring rentals that are almost exclusively, private housing. People have been punished IC for doing things so small as making soap in the bathtub of their Governor's Hotel rentals, or sparring inside of them.

tylernwn

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2021, 09:42:15 PM »
Maybe rentals should be audited, to see if they  are being used appropriately, or being abused.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2021, 09:43:00 PM »
The same could be said for anywhere, really. Where nobles "should" be able to retreat to their estate whenever they wish to plot in secret, Barovia "should" have places for people RPing wealthy merchant families in and around Vallaki to retreat to. The difference between what the server "should" be and what we have is partially dev interest and dev vision. The devs have openly stated that they have very little interest in expanding private housing anywhere in the module because it's against their vision. If that changes or some compromise is made we'll probably hear about it.

I'm personally not against seeing more of them, I just don't think we should be so quick to expect more, even if right now there aren't enough rentables for everyone.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2021, 11:25:36 PM »
Maybe rentals should be audited, to see if they  are being used appropriately, or being abused.

I'm not one to double post usually but I have seen a few posts now that are along these lines and no one seems to be replying to them. I think this is indicative of a deeper problem and it doesn't have to do with just rentables, but I'll try and keep it as short and sweet as possible.

Not to assume your stance on it (this post goes out to everyone as a request to disarm and be more thoughtful about all this), but this is not a new opinion, that rentals are going unused or underused and the people who use them need to be judged. Player perceptions are distorted because we (not me - I don't have any or want any) are "competing" for rentables, because there's a finite number of them. We also compete for dungeon spawns and people get upset about having those "stolen" from them too, which is also an unfortunate consequence of the way these systems are built.

That said, I don't think it's a rentables problem currently that Dementlieu hosts just 15-20 concurrent players on a good day out of 100+ players online and I don't think that if more rentable properties are added, that the situation will change from "if I find no one on the Terraces, I'll find no one anywhere else in the city, so I'll just go back to the Mist Camp" flow chart of RP in Dementlieu that most people follow - which has an alternate route of asking mates to jump online for RP or asking if they are okay with letting you join in any ongoing RP. Now, on a server where you log in and are immediately IC at all times until you log off, this understandably does not jive well with a lot of people.

Bringing concerns into this thread that rentable properties are going unused can be taken as disingenuous jabs at players who have those rentable properties and pay a not insignificant sum of ingame money & attention, creativity, and time toward keeping them as active as they possibly can, passing out many keys and inviting people to come roleplay in them when they cannot find contact ingame.

You can play for 8 hours a day - completely missing someone who plays another 8 hours out of the day - and even if you take breaks no longer than 15 minutes at a time, interacting with people all day long, there are people who will perceive you as, and call you out as inactive, invisible, and nonparticipant. It's happened to me before while solo-crewing the Morninglord temple, especially prior to joining the faction which took me over 4 months of active play in the same time zone. It is very frustrating to see this kind of rhetoric go unchallenged on the forums, and then later be reiterated back to us through private channels by staff members who end up believing it. That we're not doing anything, that we're not inclusive enough, and that what we have should be placed in the hands of others even though we've been trying to be giving from the start.

It's not about what we're doing. DMs do not need to monitor this feature any more than they already do, they do not need to count the hours we've been online when they themselves have a quota to meet. Understand that at some point there will literally be a busywork feedback loop where DMs clock their 10 hours a week on this server doing nothing but trying to fulfill generic requests - and that we have already crossed that threshold with the amount of bugs and glitches inherent in the engine already. Now think of how much time is spent judging applications already and ask yourself, if you feel you don't get enough DM attention, do you think you'll get more when the DMs are asked to do even more administrative work instead of creative work?

RP is not something you can put deadlines on. I guarantee you that if any time limits and event quotas are pushed, they'd be filled even if we stay the course. People wouldn't be happy about the assumption that they're "failing" at some "responsibility" they have, but they would do it because they really want to RP regardless of the stress they have to deal with. But despite the quotas being filled, those who are unsatisfied with the performance of current rentable property owners would remain unsatisfied, because what this is actually about is people not having a rental of their own when they want one. You can only solve that by requesting the developers add more rentables, although this may take time as they may not be interested right now. Taking things away from people because they're not using them "the right way" (when was the last time someone passed arbitrary judgement on you and you felt good about it?) just changes the places of the pieces on the board, which is just about the only thing that applications would do, and that is an unnecessary step in the wrong direction.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2021, 12:09:09 AM »
The same could be said for anywhere, really. Where nobles "should" be able to retreat to their estate whenever they wish to plot in secret, Barovia "should" have places for people RPing wealthy merchant families in and around Vallaki to retreat to. The difference between what the server "should" be and what we have is partially dev interest and dev vision. The devs have openly stated that they have very little interest in expanding private housing anywhere in the module because it's against their vision. If that changes or some compromise is made we'll probably hear about it.

I'm personally not against seeing more of them, I just don't think we should be so quick to expect more, even if right now there aren't enough rentables for everyone.

Keep in mind, Novak's Rentals was opened back up in the last year or so, adding another zone wherein it says on the 'Rules,' to essentially be as non-bothersome to other leasers in Novak's as possible. It's an apartment complex, with a single larger room suitable to other activities in the 'attic.' The Tenements has-- Dozens, and dozens of rooms. They just aren't used because they're unimpressive in general. They're almost always available, however.

If you look at the Governor's Hotel and Novak's however, it's almost impossible to find rooms available in either, with their larger rooms being coveted in the extreme. The kind of things people want are facilities more viable for factions, and those come in the form of three warehouses, and three shops, in Dementlieu.

I don't actually know what Vallaki has, but I get the impression that it Vallaki could do with more rentables in general. Vallaki is bigger, in the game world, than Port-à-Lucine even if it is not as big in population ICly. It also sees more traffic. Dementlieu just sees regulars and loyal traffic exclusive to it with the occassional wanderer. Port-à-Lucine is intended to be a level 10+ zone, and the pricing of properties and rentals, fees to run businesses, and so forth represents that. Perhaps even Krofburg, or Wachter Estate rentals could be worthwhile, but Krofburg does not have a player guard faction that is 'official' to support it, just a DM-plot relevant one that is currently on freeze due to the plot being frozen.

Wachters do not have rentables.

Perhaps Berez, if the Gundarakites are slated to last, could have some.

Generally speaking, I think people just want rooms and areas to be able to settle in and operate out of. The server is more than big enough that it does not damage the flow of roleplay. I gain the impression the decision to add Novak's Rentals into the module again is a decision made from the increase in player count. After-all, when these original discussions took place, 2015, 2016, 2017, or so? NWN: EE had not exploded the player pop as it did. PoTM was roughly 40 players active at any given point, with highs into the 50's. I can never, for the life of me, recall having to wait for the server to free up a slot at the 62 or 64-player limit that NWN imposed. Now we are at 140-150 at some of our highest pops, to the point the server can barely sustain having them all in one place and it is wise to spread them out to lessen performance impact.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2021, 12:18:33 AM »
I think we'd see a lot more use out of the Tenements if it didn't exist where it did. The waif dungeon is just not what most people RPing in Dementlieu want to have to walk through repeatedly to get to their home base. If there was an identical building in Vallaki, it would surely be popular just because of its location. Like you said, I'm confident most people aren't looking for a massive, well-decorated place to keep all to themselves, but expanding on that, I'm positive a lot of people would be ecstatic to have a very small place if it meant they had one at all.

The question is whether the developers are comfortable with adding more. I'm going to guess that at this time the answer to that question is no, because they're afraid people will spend too much time behind those closed doors. But I don't think that it will happen that way. People have to leave these rooms sometimes, especially if they're a single tile with a bed and a bookshelf.

A new wave of rentables in the forgotten districts of Vallaki would add some degree of permanence to RP in those areas that I think a lot of people would be quick to celebrate and very few consequences would rise out of it. Easy for me to say since I'm not a dev and it's not my workload, though.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2021, 06:04:08 AM »
make the front room of all trade based rentals permanently unlocked

there's plenty of internal rooms for private business and this would passively incentivise players to make sure they've built a roleplay space that is focused on world play.

also, you know, we could always remove plot locking from all doors and just have high OL DCs on everything but dark lord spaces - i can't even count the number of times i have had to get dm supervision for opening doors that aren't related to faction bases. this is especially relevant in pvp scenarios where a dm might not have time to simulate a character's actual ability to interact with a door fast enough.


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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2021, 06:26:18 AM »
make the front room of all trade based rentals permanently unlocked

there's plenty of internal rooms for private business and this would passively incentivise players to make sure they've built a roleplay space that is focused on world play.

also, you know, we could always remove plot locking from all doors and just have high OL DCs on everything but dark lord spaces - i can't even count the number of times i have had to get dm supervision for opening doors that aren't related to faction bases. this is especially relevant in pvp scenarios where a dm might not have time to simulate a character's actual ability to interact with a door fast enough.

Honestly agreed.  Rentals don’t need plot locking imho.  The only plot locked buildings should be supported faction bases like the citadel, since NPCs should be reacted by DMs.  Or, you know,  doors locked for actual plot reasons. 

The thing is, you still have to open the door.  If you open a locked door in a rental with people in it they’ll know someone is there and start trying to detect you or leave.

Also plot locked doors create issues in PvP where a door with an arbitrary lock can be closed to lock someone inside of a place and it is in my view  cheesing mechanics.  A PC with adequate strength or open lock would realistically be able to open the door.  I know that’s a bit off topic but I feel there should be some rule in place about cheesing plot locks to lock people inside of a room in PvP scenarios; it’s happened before on different occasions and seems pretty icky on every occasion.

King Pickle

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2021, 10:20:09 AM »
You could also pay more money for higher lock dc etc.

Funny thing about port is that most PC's are upper class twits and the rentals are mostly for poor people.
So if you are a local noble you can either live in the Ouvriers or in a hotel. Neither option makes sense IC imo.
Rentable manors have been suggested in the past but  devs or one of them stated that they were somehow uninclusive.

Looking at this topic I can't see how they would be any more uninclusive than what we have going on now.

I say more rentals for all social classes and domains. The more the merrier.

JustMonika

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2021, 10:20:49 AM »
make the front room of all trade based rentals permanently unlocked

there's plenty of internal rooms for private business and this would passively incentivise players to make sure they've built a roleplay space that is focused on world play.

also, you know, we could always remove plot locking from all doors and just have high OL DCs on everything but dark lord spaces - i can't even count the number of times i have had to get dm supervision for opening doors that aren't related to faction bases. this is especially relevant in pvp scenarios where a dm might not have time to simulate a character's actual ability to interact with a door fast enough.

As the owner of a busy rental, I would be fine with this. We often leave the 'front door' unlocked for just such a reason.

The only issue is it provides silly situations where people could arguably just walk in to 'steal' things. I don't know how we'd copy with people wandering in leaving @marks about how they'd wrecked the place. It would be pretty hard to justify IC why you leave a bar unlocked when you're asleep or elsewhere, particularly when you've already been targeted by criminal activity.

Hypatia

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2021, 02:23:38 PM »
I don’t mind people being able to pick the lock, but entering should take you out of stealth. Literally every set of eyes in the room just went to the door opening, I don’t care what ninja skills you have... you shouldn’t be able to tip-toe through a doorway being watched. Once inside you can go stealth again. Honestly the best rentals is that it’s the one place you can go where some damned stealther probably isn’t standing 5’ away with no chance of ever being spotted other than by a small, select type of PCs.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 02:25:17 PM by Hypatia »

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2021, 04:13:33 PM »
I do agree with removing plot-locked doors and replacing them with DCs. Even the Gendarmerie has DCs, but the Citadel does not. The rentals universally have plot-locked doors making them Gaping-Wound tier spots for murder and invulnerable to most forms of espionage/spying that adds a lot to intrigue without requiring a DM to babysit each specific situation and contributes to more player-driven agency.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2021, 05:08:15 PM »
I do agree with removing plot-locked doors and replacing them with DCs. Even the Gendarmerie has DCs, but the Citadel does not. The rentals universally have plot-locked doors making them Gaping-Wound tier spots for murder and invulnerable to most forms of espionage/spying that adds a lot to intrigue without requiring a DM to babysit each specific situation and contributes to more player-driven agency.

I don't agree with this. It would make player rentals legal corpsehiding locations for one, but two, the Gendarmerie having doors with DCs is often abused. You cannot lock pick those doors without a DM present. Yet, sometimes people do, and the players can never figure out who it is when it happens unless they can spot/listen the person. Plot locked faction doors regulate those encounters and attempts.

Even if you are the Remi Rousseau of stealthers, you cannot stealth/break in to a faction base such as the Gendarmerie without DM Support. You can't break out, either.

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2021, 05:48:39 PM »
There's nothing stopping the staff from appending that bodies cannot be hidden in any rented property BSR.
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Kiyosa

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2021, 06:01:24 PM »
I'll be lazy and quote my reply to another thread regarding the same topic:

I do have mild objections in regards to rental doors getting a DC for lockpicking though. Spying on others can certainly provide RP, yes, but so can being unable to do so and having to come up with other IC means to acquire information. The vast majority of locations on the server caters to spying as is. The Mist Camp, Outskirts, terraces and various inns etc. are all excellent places for it. As such, rentals have become some of the very few places that are more or less spy-free. Stealthers can still slip in if they do it right and may well stay undetected, since not that many people are willing/able to invest in detection skills/gear. This is why I don't necessarily see the need to make those accessible as well, thus eliminating the already few no-stealth environments available.

Drekavac

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Re: [Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2021, 07:45:31 PM »
Correct, DC or not you cannot stealth in a faction base without some measure of oversight. It just means DMs have to do extra work of opening doors or conduct rp where the individual taking this huge risk takes a key off someone. Citation needed on ‘often abused’ because that should be reported unless I misunderstood what you mean.
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