[Rental Suggestion] Applications and Expirations for Rentals

[Dardonas]

So, one of the biggest gripes I have about rentals are the players and player factions that buy up the rentals purely to either prevent other people to use them, to hoard rentals for some sadistic reason, or rent them to charge exuberant sums of fees to lease the rental secondhand.  While the latter at least creates some roleplay, this system is fundamentally flawed in how it is done.  I can walk through Vallaki right now and spot at least five rentals that aren't used in the slightest and haven't been used in months.   The problem is even worse in Dementlieu where half the warehouses in the Marchand haven't seen the light of day for months.

My proposal is this: rentals should be applied for.  They should have OOC and IC considerations, approved by the CC.  It makes no sense to me why the dock authorities in the Marchand, why Hoth in the Drain, or any of the warehouse managers in Vallaki would allow people to rent these buildings for chump change and then allow people to turn around and re-rent these for 100k or more in gold costs.  In the cases where this isn't done, the alternative is that there are simply people hoarding keys or looking to snipe rentals whenever they pop up, only for these buildings to go unused for sometimes months on end.

Unless I am mistaken, there has been some attempt to crackdown in Port-a-Lucine on the Gendarme's part on factions who have, in the past, simply bought up buildings to let them then go unused.  It seems to have been ineffective as I can walk through and see several buildings that haven't had the doors opened in weeks, if not months.

The aims of rentals should be to create roleplay for factions, and dead rentals create no roleplay.  By putting it behind an application gate, it can give rentals a timer for people to ask for a renewal as well as provide concise OOC and IC reasoning for why your faction/organization should have the rental.  If a faction fails to provide services, roleplay or otherwise, they should lose access to the rental.  Additionally, due to the scarcity of rentals on the server, I would also add there should be a limit of one base per faction unless there is adequate reason provided in the application.

[BraveSirRobin]

So, one of the biggest gripes I have about rentals are the players and player factions that buy up the rentals purely to either prevent other people to use them, to hoard rentals for some sadistic reason, or rent them to charge exuberant sums of fees to lease the rental secondhand.  While the latter at least creates some roleplay, this system is fundamentally flawed in how it is done.  I can walk through Vallaki right now and spot at least five rentals that aren't used in the slightest and haven't been used in months.   The problem is even worse in Dementlieu where half the warehouses in the Marchand haven't seen the light of day for months.

My proposal is this: rentals should be applied for.  They should have OOC and IC considerations, approved by the CC.  It makes no sense to me why the dock authorities in the Marchand, why Hoth in the Drain, or any of the warehouse managers in Vallaki would allow people to rent these buildings for chump change and then allow people to turn around and re-rent these for 100k or more in gold costs.  In the cases where this isn't done, the alternative is that there are simply people hoarding keys or looking to snipe rentals whenever they pop up, only for these buildings to go unused for sometimes months on end.

Unless I am mistaken, there has been some attempt to crackdown in Port-a-Lucine on the Gendarme's part on factions who have, in the past, simply bought up buildings to let them then go unused.  It seems to have been ineffective as I can walk through and see several buildings that haven't had the doors opened in weeks, if not months.

The aims of rentals should be to create roleplay for factions, and dead rentals create no roleplay.  By putting it behind an application gate, it can give rentals a timer for people to ask for a renewal as well as provide concise OOC and IC reasoning for why your faction/organization should have the rental.  If a faction fails to provide services, roleplay or otherwise, they should lose access to the rental.  Additionally, due to the scarcity of rentals on the server, I would also add there should be a limit of one base per faction unless there is adequate reason provided in the application.

These are managed by the Guard factions for activity with monthly reviews. This is a non-issue, primarily because the perception of use can be deceiving. Unless you are part of the factions using the bases, you probably aren't going to see their interiors as often as others.

[Kiyosa]

So, one of the biggest gripes I have about rentals are the players and player factions that buy up the rentals purely to either prevent other people to use them, to hoard rentals for some masochistic reason, or rent them to charge exuberant sums of fees to lease the rental secondhand.  While the latter at least creates some roleplay, this system is fundamentally flawed in how it is done.  I can walk through Vallaki right now and spot at least five rentals that aren't used in the slightest and haven't been used in months.   The problem is even worse in Dementlieu where half the warehouses in the Marchand haven't seen the light of day. 

My proposal is this: rentals should be applied for.  They should have OOC and IC considerations, approved by the CC.  It makes no sense to me why the dock authorities in the Marchand, why Hoth in the Drain, or any of the warehouse managers in Vallaki would allow people to rent these buildings for chump change and then allow people to turn around and re-rent these for 100k or more in gold costs.  In the cases where this isn't done, the alternative is that there are simply people hoarding keys or looking to snipe rentals whenever they pop up, only for these buildings to go unused for sometimes months on end.

Unless I am mistaken, there has been some attempt to crackdown in Port-a-Lucine on the Gendarme's part on factions who have, in the past, simply bought up buildings to let them then go unused.  It seems to have been ineffective as I can walk through and see several buildings that haven't had the doors opened in weeks, if not months.

The aims of rentals should be to create roleplay for factions.  By putting it behind an application gate, it can give rentals a timer for people to ask for a renewal as well as provide concise OOC and IC reasoning for why your faction/organization should have the rental.  If a faction fails to provide services, roleplay or otherwise, they should lose access to the rental.

I can't say I agree. Firstly, how can anyone outside the DM team know which exact rentals see much use and which don't? Or for what reasons, for that matter? If you really believe someone has OOC motives to rent one without ever planning on using it, then it'd be best reported to the DMs to solve the issue, no? That aside, how would one excuse OOC applications IC? Would there be IC equivalents of them and if yes, to whom exactly? A can of worms opens right there.

No OOC intervention regarding the rentals, or any other purely IC aspect of the game, should take place, in my opinion. The sole exception to this is indeed subleasing, only because the NPCs would react. I believe there are rules against tha talready in place though.

[BraveSirRobin]

Gendarmes and Garda can see who occupies rentals owned by cities, but not inn rooms if memory serves, to regulate these buildings.

[Dardonas]

I can't say I agree. Firstly, how can anyone outside the DM team know which exact rentals see much use and which don't? Or for what reasons, for that matter? If you really believe someone has OOC motives to rent one without ever planning on using it, then it'd be best reported to the DMs to solve the issue, no? That aside, how would one excuse OOC applications IC? Would there be IC equivalents of them and if yes, to whom exactly? A can of worms opens right there.

No OOC intervention regarding the rentals, or any other purely IC aspect of the game, shouldn't take place, in my opinion. The sole exception to this is indeed subleasing, only because the NPCs would react. I believe there are rules already in place against that though.

You can easily see the buildings that haven't been used in a while when they have had the same sign out in their storefront for ages and is consistently locked and go unmentioned.  There is a handful of buildings like these in the Vallaki warehouse district, for instance.  You also see the lack of advertisements both in game and on the forums for these buildings, some of which, unless I am mistaken, are intended for commercial purposes in the setting like warehouses. 

We excuse OOC applications IC the same way we do PrCs and MPCs.  Ideally after the IC reasoning you'd have a field explain how you intend to create roleplay with your faction.  Whether the decision is best up to the DM team or the CC can be debated, maybe the DM team would be better but they often have a lot of other duties and responsibilities on top of doing their own plots. 

Gendarmes and Garda can see who occupies rentals owned by cities, but not inn rooms if memory serves, to regulate these buildings.

It doesn't seem to me that there has been too much effort in the past to rectify this idea of the Gendarme/Garda managing warehouses.  At least in the Gendarme's case, I recall hearing a single faction owned the majority, if not all, rentals in Port-a-Lucine.  The fact that this even became an issue in the first place is probably enough to justify the need for stricter moderation of rentals.

[Kiyosa]

You can easily see the buildings that haven't been used in a while when they have had the same sign out in their storefront for ages and is consistently locked and go unmentioned.  There is a handful of buildings like these in the Vallaki warehouse district, for instance.  You also see the lack of advertisements both in game and on the forums for these buildings, some of which, unless I am mistaken, are intended for commercial purposes in the setting like warehouses. 

None of what you list is any indication of whether a building is used or how much. Whoever owns it may well be using it without mentioning it, advertising it, or having changed the sign for perfectly valid IC reasons. What I'm saying here is that basing an argument on assumptions doesn't make a solid case.

[Khornite]

It doesn't seem to me that there has been too much effort in the past to rectify this idea of the Gendarme/Garda managing warehouses.  At least in the Gendarme's case, I recall hearing a single faction owned the majority, if not all, rentals in Port-a-Lucine.  The fact that this even became an issue in the first place is probably enough to justify the need for stricter moderation of rentals.

This was an IC rumor that was exaggerated as part of conflict RP, the OOC reality was nothing close to the rumor. There is a rule now that no one person can own more then two properties in Port at a time.

That all said, I think the staff have enough on their plate already without adding in micromanaging IC rentals.

[mooner]

I'm planning on doing a review or census of Vallaki's rentals in the near future, but I've noticed most changed hands just over a month ago. There are only 2-3 that have been rented for a long duration (over 140 days), and I can't accurately speak as to their activity because a lot of them will be owned by players who play at different times, and run in different social circles than my character does.

I don't think applications would help much, sadly. It's a lot of work when you consider the same problem can easily still arise; I can apply for a rental, be accepted and then fall into inactivity at any time. I imagine reviews help but I also imagine the CC/DM team have enough on their plates as it is.

[SardineTheAncestor]

To expand on that rule, there should probably be a rule that any one faction can have no more than one rentable property at a time or something, anywhere in the module.

I take issue with the terminology of "creating roleplay" and "generating roleplay" etc. because it's not finite and it's not a currency. Roleplay just is. If there is a scarcity of something ingame, whether that is potions or endgame gear or rentables, the RP starts when people respond to that situation IC.

This system is in a weird place so it might take a while for the devs to decide what to do with it. We already know they don't want to give many opportunities for people to cloister themselves away in private properties even if the possibility is there for them to use it as a backdrop for faction stuff. I'm not sure if I want to see more rentables but I think there is little evidence that having as many of them available as players want is any more a problem than the way inn room keys work.

Perhaps more rentables could be added in areas that don't have any right now. I'm not aware of any in the Residential District in Vallaki, nor the Merchant's District, or the Noble's District.

But as far as possible solutions go, I personally would not like to see any expansion of the application system. It's more time that DMs have to spend off the server scrutinising applications and it's more time that players have to spend off the server writing meta instead of playing which is fun.

[zDark Shadowz]

It kind of needs an instanced area system using MySQL or something like Zunath had for one of his zombie survival servers, but maybe even 100+ players having their own houses would be too much.

I'm grateful there's any kind of housing system at all to be honest, even if I may never be able to have one myself.

[BraveSirRobin]

I can't say I agree. Firstly, how can anyone outside the DM team know which exact rentals see much use and which don't? Or for what reasons, for that matter? If you really believe someone has OOC motives to rent one without ever planning on using it, then it'd be best reported to the DMs to solve the issue, no? That aside, how would one excuse OOC applications IC? Would there be IC equivalents of them and if yes, to whom exactly? A can of worms opens right there.

No OOC intervention regarding the rentals, or any other purely IC aspect of the game, shouldn't take place, in my opinion. The sole exception to this is indeed subleasing, only because the NPCs would react. I believe there are rules already in place against that though.

You can easily see the buildings that haven't been used in a while when they have had the same sign out in their storefront for ages and is consistently locked and go unmentioned.  There is a handful of buildings like these in the Vallaki warehouse district, for instance.  You also see the lack of advertisements both in game and on the forums for these buildings, some of which, unless I am mistaken, are intended for commercial purposes in the setting like warehouses. 

We excuse OOC applications IC the same way we do PrCs and MPCs.  Ideally after the IC reasoning you'd have a field explain how you intend to create roleplay with your faction.  Whether the decision is best up to the DM team or the CC can be debated, maybe the DM team would be better but they often have a lot of other duties and responsibilities on top of doing their own plots. 

Gendarmes and Garda can see who occupies rentals owned by cities, but not inn rooms if memory serves, to regulate these buildings.

It doesn't seem to me that there has been too much effort in the past to rectify this idea of the Gendarme/Garda managing warehouses.  At least in the Gendarme's case, I recall hearing a single faction owned the majority, if not all, rentals in Port-a-Lucine.  The fact that this even became an issue in the first place is probably enough to justify the need for stricter moderation of rentals.

There is also an IC element of corruption in both factions that can favor certain rentals being overlooked, as well. The DMs have oversight of the Guard factions for egregious offenses, and hearsay on who owns what were is entirely conjecture to the playerbase that leads to sensationalism. If there is an issue with how they are being managed, file a complaint with the DM Teeam and they will look into it, and have Guard NPCs talk to their subordinates about performing reviews.

It's also worth noting, that the rentable rooms in the Tenements, Governor's Hotel, and Novak's aren't supposed to be faction bases. They're literally rental housing, and there's a reason why everyone has a limit of two per character. They are expected to be able to rent a Warehouse, and a room. This is a server of 150+ players. There is always going to be a shortage of rentals. A better idea might be to expand the number of rentals to more empty buildings in each city.

[Dardonas]

I'll concede that another application system may be a bit much in terms of what the DMs/CC already do.  That said, I do still feel as if there is an issue with dead rentals and subleasing that needs to be addressed in some manner, and I'm unsure what could be the solution for it.  While I feel like Port-a-Lucine has plenty of rentals across the board, as Sardine mentioned having more in Vallaki, such as the Nobles' District or the Residential District would be neat.  Perhaps even adding a rental or two into Krofburg.  I'm a big fan of pushing roleplay into cities rather than into the outskirts or the Mist Camp.  The more we can get players out of those two zones the better.

I'm also in favor of a rule across the board that a faction can only own one rental at a time, for fairness' sake.

[Khornite]

I'll concede that another application system may be a bit much in terms of what the DMs/CC already do.  That said, I do still feel as if there is an issue with dead rentals and subleasing that needs to be addressed in some manner, and I'm unsure what could be the solution for it.

Subleasing is already illegal in game, though. Garda and Gendarme have busted people on it in the past.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm also in favor of a rule across the board that a faction can only own one rental at a time, for fairness' sake.

If you're suggesting members of player-lead factions aren't allowed to own their own homes for their own roleplay, you are going to experience issues where people do not want to officially be part of player-run factions because they end up with fewer rights than independents, and stifle faction roleplay. You also run into the issue where the definition of what a member of a player faction is, as not all of them are so strict or formal.

[inkcorvid]

I'll concede that another application system may be a bit much in terms of what the DMs/CC already do.  That said, I do still feel as if there is an issue with dead rentals and subleasing that needs to be addressed in some manner, and I'm unsure what could be the solution for it.

Subleasing is already illegal in game, though. Garda and Gendarme have busted people on it in the past.

Even selling people the lease if you're transfering it is very illegal. You're either making money off the Burgomaster's generosity (and property) in the case of Vallaki. In the case of the Drain, you're arguably crossing a daaaaangerous mob boss.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I'm also in favor of a rule across the board that a faction can only own one rental at a time, for fairness' sake.

If you're suggesting members of player-lead factions aren't allowed to own their own homes for their own roleplay, you are going to experience issues where people do not want to officially be part of player-run factions because they end up with fewer rights than independents, and stifle faction roleplay. You also run into the issue where the definition of what a member of a player faction is, as not all of them are so strict or formal.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. Factions are already pretty skeleton crew across the board. Best case scenario is more player groups and factions have room to move in. Worst case scenario, someone leaves so they can keep their rentable and furnish it as player housing, but low participation in factions wouldn't be some new problem.

[Lexica]

Not to comment toooo broadly on the rest of the thread, but just as a general point on rentals- Sometimes the RP doesn't quite turn out how you want, or you end up not having time to bring an idea to it's full potential, so the rental doesn't see much use.

For example, Mirabel and Danya used to have control of one of the rentals in Vallaki through a proxy. We had all sorts of plans for a cool secret vampire base with a facade in the front room of a normal business. At least in my opinion, that's a very exciting concept, and I think a lot could have been done with it. But, for various reasons, IC and OOC, it didn't quite come together how we wanted, so the rental sat unused for a month, and we didn't renew it. I think that that kind of churn where people have the opportunity to try out ideas is great, and leads to the long lasting ideas sticking around. But it can also lead to periods where a given rental doesn't see much use, because of it.

It's probably pretty natural for various rentals to see less and more use as different people behind them have more or less time to devote to a given concept. As well as rentals to see more or less public use. Obviously a tavern or club is going to be very publicly open, but if a rental is being used as a secret lair or something, it might be seeing a lot of great RP that most people won't be aware of.

[PrimetheGrime]

I'm all for more properties in Vallaki, but they need to be small ramshackle houses/apartments, not something in the nobles district for instance in my opinion. Aside from the blue water, outsiders arent going to be looked on favourably to have comfortable furnishings in the nobles district

[foxtale]

I am strongly against applications for rentals.
Unlike PrCs, they are a limited resource, so making them "Application only" would put pressure on the CC/DMs to "rate" player's RP and throw them out of something they covet in favor of someone else, creating a rift and likely envy - or they need to rank every applicant to decide who should get a rental that happens to be free internally, which I think is a pretty ugly system to create as well.

Rentals need to be reliably kept so that cool organizations based in them can prosper for as long as they need to.
However, they should also have higher turnover than they have now.

I suggest that if someone forgets to extend their rental and it runs out, not the first person that tries to rent it gets the spot, but one of the first ten, chosen at random. That way it is harder for players to keep them in their group of close contacts by merit of knowing exactly when a rental would have expired, as opposed to everyone else who has to guess. It also means that if a character is dead for a longer time or closures, the rental will fall into the hands of a complete stranger, unless they thought to hand it over to an IC friend officially prior to their death/disappearance.

[Khornite]

Unlike PrCs, they are a limited resource, so making them "Application only" would put pressure on the CC/DMs to "rate" player's RP and throw them out of something they covet in favor of someone else, creating a rift and likely envy - or they need to rank every applicant to decide who should get a rental that happens to be free internally, which I think is a pretty ugly system to create as well.

And come to think of it, that would make accusations of favoritism all the more common.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm all for more properties in Vallaki, but they need to be small ramshackle houses/apartments, not something in the nobles district for instance in my opinion. Aside from the blue water, outsiders arent going to be looked on favourably to have comfortable furnishings in the nobles district

I'm not sure it would be anything more unusual than the fact foreigners can rent locations inside of the Quartier Savant, which is the Nobles' district of Dementlieu. I might suggest that extreme scrutiny be placed on the buyers and their reputation in Vallaki, and if they're weirdos who aren't contributing sufficiently to the Burgomaster's ways, they are given the almighty boot by the Garda for being undesireables. I believe Quartier Savant locations in Dementlieu are likewise placed under some scrutiny for the same reasons -- If you aren't catering to the Nobility there, or the betterment of the Republic, your usage of the Quartier Savant for your activities can and will be questioned.

[King Pickle]

I think the solution is simply to have more rentals available.

People wont hoard what is available.

OCR and origin of the character should be a thing on what and where you can rent however.

[Hypatia]

well sometimes there is RP going on even if its not obvious.  The Christian church for example, is one of those warehouses that appears to be sitting unused in Vallaki, when in reality it is getting used in a number of sneaky ways, as well as being the number one goal of our faction to reclaim what was taken. I can't say I know what's going on with the warehouses next door to it, but there's a good chance they aren't sitting unused either.

If a renter goes inactive for a while though, technically the property comes up.

As for sub-leasing... I strongly suspect their are some evil factions out there trying to use subterfuge, skullduggery and even murder to get their hands on as many leases as they can so they can rent them out for a small fortune.  I'm not sure I'm against this? I mean its villiany at its finest that my faction has likely been the victim of, and we should all encourage more villiany. The answer to this particular problem seems like it should be IC. If enough people get sick of it, they can go after the creeps behind it. I'll be the first to grab my torch and pitchfork.

[BraveSirRobin]

I can say with a certainty that the MMASC Corporate Offices gets used regularly, even if it doesn't always host public events. I actually haven't hosted a second public event because the placeables left from the last event crashed the rental and all of the interior somehow, so I've been a bit hesitant to hold another event where catering/etc is used without a back-up. Not to mention, I, as a player, had Coronavirus that put me out for over a month at one point and I had to log back in to re-rent.

[HouseOfLament]

Just a random dev suggestion, it seems that number of words spoken in a rental period can be saved as a local variable on a key to automatically gauge whether a rental is being used for roleplay or not.  There is kind of a disconnect however where landlord NPCs in the game world really have no motivation to seek new and potentially disasterous tenants for reasons that do not contribute in any meaningful way to their bottom line.