Author Topic: Shifter feedback  (Read 2789 times)

Ghailer

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Shifter feedback
« on: April 15, 2021, 11:30:51 AM »
I've been waiting to get 10lvl of shifter before I post it, to check last things. I've asked other shifters, to make sure I am not wrong, but they agree.

I will mostly compare shifter to druid, as it is closest thing and he is natural extension of it.
    1. Shifter doesn’t receive bonus feats, contrary to druids.
    2. Elephant’s hide and Oaken resilience – Druids can adopt it’s body, but shifters can’t. Even if they could, they lack of wildshape usages to use it effectively.
    3. Low abilities DCs – Most monsters and players can beat 20DC without effort.
    4. Gargoyle – at the beginning it may be usefull, but quickly becomes useless – literaly everything has at least +1 weapon and pierces his DR.
    5. Harpy – no dmg, captivating song does literaly nothing. In theory it charms enemies so they lose hostility, but gain it back as soon as you touch any unaffected enemy anyway, or they will swarm your allies instead. In reality, didn’t manage to trigger it even once while I still tried to make any use of it. - usefull if you want to kill your own allies.
    6. Manticore – not sure what to think about this one. Highest STR when you get it, but still much lower than a regular bear, with a bit higher AC though. Spikes are cool, but they hit random targets, allies and objects included. - I see no point in using this shape over Drider aside of RP.
    7. Basilisk – Only point in using it is pretrification gaze, but it has 17 DC at max level. - Is there anything that can’t pass it? It has limited casts of gaze per shift as well, which isn’t removed even at 10lvl shifter when you get unlimited number of shifts per rest. So you have potentialy unlimited number of gazes, but you have shift back and forth every three casts of gaze.
    8. Large Dire Tiger – 10lvl shifter(which means at least 5druid/10shifter) gets the same shape as druid can get at 12. To compare it to other animal shapes(No wards, but with primeval wild shape feat):
Bear - 29STR, 21AC, 1-8+9 or 2-16+9 dmg
Large Dire tiger - 29STR, 25AC and 2-8+9 or 2-12+9 dmg
And it’s just bear. Not even dire one.
    9. Illithid – Three casts of aoe DC20 stun every shift. So up to 9 per rest. Lower DC than any mage spell with comparable level. Again issue either of limited casts or low DC (probably both for „caster” shape)
    10. Medusa – Higher stats than basilisk, but lets bo honest, you will use it to turn things to stone as well, it’s medusa afterall. Same DC of gaze as Basilisk at this level, but 3 casts per shift(9 per rest) instead of potentialy unlimited.
    11. Every shape is weaker than Druid’s elementals or dire bear(We do not even talk about Polar Bears) and unlike them, you can barely self-ward.
    12. Whole class is rather weak compared to others. At most non-epic level servers Shifter is picked only 1lvl for Wyrmling’s True seeing, which is changed here (and I do understand why)


It’s mostly balance things up there.
Of other things:
He is shifter, master of many forms who on Pen’n’Paper can shift into anything. Here every druid overpowers him with his shapes. At the point you get to Dire Tiger shape(10lvl), arcanists are almost able to shapechange into adult dragon or Slaad.  Not to point out that, since you can pick verdant wild shape feat, druid gets it at 12lvl instead of 15.
He isn’t supposed to be better than dedicated classes like better frontliner than fighter or barbarian, but at least fill gaps with alternatives. For now he pays high price for geting more shapes, but it doesn’t pay back in other ways than ability to RP. Most PrCs extends base class with new abilities, or gives you more specialised powerfull ones, but shifter gets them taken away without paying back with other things.
Shifter is as well completely not adapted to PotM realm. You learn shapes you never had opportunity to even see in this realm.
To make shifter look good, probably complete rework would be needed, but that's probably not real for now.

My suggestions:
- Bonus feat progression as with druids.
- Non-combat humanoid shapes(!!!!)
- Additional shifter shapes feats( plant, aberration, vermin, magical beast, giant).
- Change shapes to those natural to server.
- Gods, remove those mustaches from drow shape. Elves do not have facial hairs in D&D...

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 11:52:44 AM »
As a long-time Shifter player, here's my take:

Wyrmlings are kinda garbage but I was able to pretty successfully utilize my wyrmling forms to dungeon using non-traditional methods, eg: imp. expertise and gathering up huge numbers of mobs on myself so that a sorcerer could fireball spam them to death.

Gargoyle is legit for the early levels. The DR doesn't hold up against many things, like werewolves, since they're capable of piercing it, but gargoyles have decent dex and AC.

Minotaur & Drider are both pretty good for the period that you get them.

I would say that the humanoid forms are pretty much the capstone of the class. They can be extremely strong in the right hands. Kobolds get HIPS and insane AB/AC as well as sneak attack damage (though sadly I don't think that sneak attack damage stacks with rogue/assassin/BG levels). The lizardfolk whipmaster is also really surprisingly good and is usually my go-to for dungeons due to the on-hit effect.

Everything beyond 7 is mostly only good for the purposes of RP.

That being said, I think that's what the class is all about: the RP.  My shifter is one of my favorite and most memorable characters. I've seen other shifters utilize the harpy form to act as a sort of pseudo-MPC in the Vallaki region. I've used numerous "weak" forms to create fun scenes for people.

I don't disagree with most of your suggestions regarding buffs, I would however point out that it's no small undertaking and shifters are probably the least played class on the server so they're not really a priority. :(

Also don't you dare touch my moustache. Though I would really like to see a way to remove the weapons from your humanoid form while RPing.
: )




firelord111

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2021, 11:53:29 AM »
I always wanted to do shifter but the lack of non combat shapes has sort of put me away from trying to get it .It would be amazing to be able to play as an ever changing mysterious being.

EO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2021, 12:06:01 PM »
Quote
- Gods, remove those mustaches from drow shape. Elves do not have facial hairs in D&D...

I won't comment on the other points, but FYI, Greyhawk drow do have facial hair. I think it's only the FR ones that don't (possibly Eberron's but I haven't checked in a while).

FenrirG

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2021, 12:18:53 PM »
What's your take on the stacking weapon enchantments and permanent Bladeweave(possibly Blackstaff too)?

Lucifron

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2021, 01:37:30 PM »
I have to agree with most of the stuff here. The whole point of Shifter is that they xan blend in to any situation, but I can't turn into a Human to blend in more in Barovia?

It would be cool to get the class revamped.

Ghailer

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2021, 03:10:59 PM »
What's your take on the stacking weapon enchantments and permanent Bladeweave(possibly Blackstaff too)?
Stacking enchantments at this point is only thing that makes him catch up in combat abilities. To be honest, it should be probably removed, but it's result of how nwn shfiting and merging items work.

I agree mostly with BahamutZ3RO.
Minotaur and Drider are good shapes, that's true. Drider is a bit harder to use because of RP reasons.
Kobold's sneak attack as far as I know stacks with BG and Assassin's, but not rogue.
Class is great for RP, but strongly needs non-combat shapes for it at this point.


EDIT:18.04
Just found out that our Medusa for some reason has DC14 poison instead of 20.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 08:43:50 PM by Ghailer »

EO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 02:40:31 PM »
Shifter would need a complete overhaul but that's rather time consuming, and unless someone feels like completely reworking the class, I don't see it happening any time soon.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 07:15:09 PM »
"Shifter doesnt receive bonus feats, contrary to druid."

Druid doesn't receive bonus feats beyond what is given out to all classes as standard, are you saying Shifter PrC doesn't get feats at level 2, 5 and 8 as is usually standard?

Lucifron

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 07:20:48 PM »
I understand the reason to not update the class quickly (due to the playey base) but isn't the reaosn it's so void of players, because of how terrible it is mechanically?
If it was updated, even something small like giving it spell progress (which wouldn't make it any more powerful then a Druid anyway) then there might be a player increase, which will mean people may attempt to overhaul the class completely in the future.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 07:29:03 PM »
If it was updated it should make use of the mix & match benefits option for having druid levels.

At level 8 a druid can transform into a large creature, so an 8/1 shifter would have the option of a large wyrmling. Also, a 15 druid can shapeshift into a Huge creature so a 15 druid / 5 shifter would probably have the option to turn into a dragon outright at level 20.

The nuisances of mix and matching classes with existing wildshapes and creating exceptions would be the heavy overhaul thatd require scripting I think. A druid shifter werewolf might have a very large wolf option °~° but each variant iteration would need to be accounted for and selected off a radial and the polymorph script and check for that radial option written.

Theres also the undead forms at level 5 that shifters get, and are able to turn incorporeal if they pick an undead form that has that, so any wraith kind of forms would need to be given ethereal jaunt I assume if they don't have that already.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:37:44 PM by zDark Shadowz »

Lucifron

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 07:40:26 PM »
The Undead shapes aren't a thing on the server, also the Shifter resources on the forums is completely incorrect for the benefits they get as it's from PnP. The only thing Shifter shares with the PnP version is the name lol

Ghailer

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2021, 09:00:02 AM »
"Shifter doesnt receive bonus feats, contrary to druid."

Druid doesn't receive bonus feats beyond what is given out to all classes as standard, are you saying Shifter PrC doesn't get feats at level 2, 5 and 8 as is usually standard?

Now you got me.
I had to check it and...If I am counting feats properly, I am missing feats compared to druid progression. But maybe I am skiping some feat? Maybe someone could verify it?

Quote
At level 8 a druid can transform into a large creature, so an 8/1 shifter would have the option of a large wyrmling. Also, a 15 druid can shapeshift into a Huge creature so a 15 druid / 5 shifter would probably have the option to turn into a dragon outright at level 20.
Wouldn't such solution strongly promote going for just dip 5 lvl shifter and all in druid, instead of going for shifter? Just like now there is no point pushing past 7lvl aside of RP? It would still need complete rework anyway.
For now I think worst is 10lvl. Every previous shape pack offers at least one usefull shape. Last one gives literaly nothing to justify picking those 3 lvls.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 09:37:58 AM by Ghailer »

Ken14

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2021, 12:00:20 PM »
Here's an idea : Why not give the Shifter the option of picking one of the epic shifter feats at lvl 10?

Kinda similar like how fighters get the epic critical feat with lowered requirements?

Obviously not Dragon Shape, though, that thing is too hefty. But Outsider Shape, Construct Shape or Undead Shape could work.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2021, 12:12:25 PM »
I suspect any of the epic forms would need tweaking before they could become options on the server (+5 weapons would need to go, for instance). Strangely, the construct forms actually seem significantly weaker than the shapeshift version of the golem.

Also, aside from the undead forms (which I suggested they should probably be able to get access to) most of the forms aren't very server suitable, do it just exacerbates the problem of shifters being out of place.
: )




Lucifron

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2021, 12:52:28 PM »
Revenant said that if he was ever to update Shifters, he would replace the forms with Ravenloft specific forms. Which honestly would be great.

Revenant

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2021, 03:46:16 PM »
Revenant said that if he was ever to update Shifters, he would replace the forms with Ravenloft specific forms. Which honestly would be great.

That's like, perfect world and minimum.

Also very important note that I am not a dev.
Vicerimus Mortem.

Ghailer

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2021, 04:13:38 PM »
Replacing shapes with ones fiting the setting would be great.

tylernwn

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2021, 07:11:51 PM »
The class probably just needs more forms. Like instead of huge dire tiger, how about huge ebon tiger? Huge sword spider? Huge Shadow Mastiff?

However who would work on this? I don’t know.

EO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2021, 05:38:40 PM »
We'll make some substantial balance changes to shifters to better align it with Master of Many Forms, the 3.5 version.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2021, 08:38:19 PM »
That'd be pretty cool if its this http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/master-of-many-forms/index.html

Free action polymorphing, additional wildshape uses per level, all the usual wild shape power ups would be much more available to compound together.




Will an X druid X shifter be able to reach the dire animal forms after 12+ total levels of druid and shifter, and will elemental forms be the regular elemental form for 16-19 druid or the Elder elemental form for lvl 20 druid? Or would it only become an elder elemental form if they were 10 druid 10 shifter?
  -Referring to "The master of many forms' class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form."

Would the dragon forms be a toned down version of the Dragon Shape forms or simply reskinned Shapechange for the different elements?

Lucifron

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2021, 10:18:15 AM »
That'd be pretty cool if its this http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/master-of-many-forms/index.html

Free action polymorphing, additional wildshape uses per level, all the usual wild shape power ups would be much more available to compound together.




Will an X druid X shifter be able to reach the dire animal forms after 12+ total levels of druid and shifter, and will elemental forms be the regular elemental form for 16-19 druid or the Elder elemental form for lvl 20 druid? Or would it only become an elder elemental form if they were 10 druid 10 shifter?
  -Referring to "The master of many forms' class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form."

Would the dragon forms be a toned down version of the Dragon Shape forms or simply reskinned Shapechange for the different elements?

Someone mentioned before about having a Dire system for Shifters similar to how Druids go Dire at level 12. Wyrmling could become a Young Dragon at level 4 instead of infinite Wyrmling shape.

EO

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2021, 09:33:58 PM »
For the time being, aside from elemental shapes (which are already supported in NwN), we won't add more shapes. Implementing new shapes would mean completely overhauling the current ones and that's too time consuming.

Ghailer

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2021, 08:57:08 AM »
If there is any shape that should be replaced, it is large dire tiger as it's exactly the same as one given from feat, but with different name. Even the size of large dire tiger and dire tiger is the same - at least visualy, as I can't check it other way.

pumpikin

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Re: Shifter feedback
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 09:14:01 AM »
I feel like something like Adding the Undead Form feat from the base game would make sense. According to the base game's wiki, the feat can be taken at Shifter 10, not necessarily epic levels. Furthermore, it would make sense if it were easier than normal to take on an undead form in a place like Ravenloft. Naturally, the numbers on the Undead Forms would probably need to be looked at/addressed, but if you keep it at Shifter 10 requirement, then remember that you can't get that feat before level 15, and Wizards/Sorcerers start getting GMW +4 weapons at 16, and Greater Stoneskin's 20/+3 DR at 11 or 12.