[Jail Suggestion] Guard Factions and Jailing - "Gen Pop"

[Dardonas]

One of the things that always seemed offputting about jailing PCs is the lack of roleplay they get from the guards that put them there.  While I understand the argument about consequences, at the end of the day we're here for RP and denying people RP — even if they are in jail — seems wrong.  I'm not faulting the guards necessarily, I understand that they can only be on one place at a time and it is conducive to their faction activity.  However, prisoners have to request roleplay.  Being jailed and not receiving roleplay should not be an OOC punishment in of itself, especially given that not every single PC who is jailed is not actually guilty of a crime.   As people have discussed in many threads, that is the consequence we get are when corpses are hidden — this shouldn't happen prior to that.

That said, I feel like since the aim is to create and share stories on this server having the jailing system for both the Gendarmerie and the Citadel converted into having a "gen pop" style cell (read: one massive room behind bars) for other prisoners to interact with one another would be the best way to achieve this.  While jailbreaks and escapes require DM oversight, these things still very rarely happen, and it would help to facilitate prisoners sharing crime stories, prison tales, and potentially working with each other and escaping (which generates lots of story beats and some interesting RP, if you ask me).  Of course, there can be other procedures that require a DM's okay in specific cases where PCs need to be jailed in solitary confinement, such as the jailing of an A/MPC, just like we have for vaulting procedures.  I feel as if people would feel a lot less soured about being jailed or caught for a guard faction's bounty if it didn't mean the end of RP as soon as someone was caught.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

All the above has been true from my experience, it is not a lack of willingness to RP confinement from either prisoner or guard but an environmental factor, this also seems a rather easy change for the Developers to implement too. +1

Looking forward to shanking my cellmate with a sharpened baguette

[mooner]

I can't speak for the Gendarmerie, but it's true enough for the Citadel. It's nice having prisoners (in the sense that they're free RP XP that can't escape) but to RP with them you need both the prisoner and an available guard online. Unfortunately there isn't always the luxury of having a guard available to spend all day and night in the prison. Isolation is an intentional part of the punishment - I assume, anyway - but as OP points out it shouldn't be a punishment for the player, just for the character. One big communal cell might not solve this problem, but it would help alleviate it when there's more than one person in the jails.

I don't expect removing the cells and implementing one big one would be much of a problem. Even IC, the amount of people that have attempted a jailbreak while I've been a Garda is... well, zero. Even if you could overpower someone in the "Gen Pop" cell, getting out is still more or less impossible for a prisoner. You could even go the extra mile and flesh it out with things like a rustic cafeteria, and a yard (or a pit) for leisure. Not necessary, but it would expand on the avenues of RP available for people lucky enough to spend a few nights in the Citadel's five star catered accomodation.

[JustMonika]

I feel this is one of those occassions where we should 100% sacrifice 'realism' for 'roleplay'. Isolated cells make 100% IC sense, but have pretty much zero ooc benefits, and nothing but ic goodness can come of prisoners being locked in the same cells to conspire together.

[BraveSirRobin]

I do not agree with a general population cell system for both the Citadel and the Gendarmerie. It creates a number of issues, and clashes with themes in Port-à-Lucine in specific to do so. However, in the Citadel, you can create prison roleplay by putting prisoners in cells near eachother instead of on opposite wings of the Citadel. It's easier to seek reform that way than to redesign the prison system.

In the Gendarmerie, I have suggested multiple times over the years to see the cell doors changed from LoS blocking ones to open cell doors so prisoners down, beside, or across the hall could speak to eachother during their sentencing. In PaL in specific, the prisoners need to be separated because the Nobles who are in the cells at any given point are afforded exceedingly high privileges, such as cots, tables, writing implements and exclusivity of their prison space.

Multiple prisoners can be put in a cell as well, which has been done before, however it often results in something occurring that negatively impacts or reflects upon the Gendarme PCs who are in-charge of watching over them.

I'd sooner look into enforcing standing orders for the Garda to put prisoners beside eachother (unless they lose their privileges of having a neighbour for some reason) than I would try to rebuild the cell system. Keep in mind, if you wanted to log in and RP with yourself in your cell, that's fine. And usually, Guards will facilitate visitation or they will arrive to feed your character/etc when they can make time. However, this being said, being in prison in real life can be similarly boring. It's not intended to be a reward system, and there are few fates more dulling than being stuck in a cell to stew on your thoughts.

Sometimes you have to remember that it not every step is a fun one. Whenever my characters have been in cells, I just hop to alts, play other games, or hop on when there's action. It's not that big of a deal.


Edit: Just to be clear, I am a fan of prisoners being near eachother, and requirements to put them close to eachother in the Citadel, which has blocks of sometimes four to six cells in LoS of eachother. In the Gendarmerie's case, I've been asking for years for the cell doors to be changed to ones that do not block LoS, which the Gendarmerie only ever has 2-3 prisoners at a time. Put them side-by-side, issue solved.

[BlackEmperor]

100% for Gen Pop, Prison should be anything but boring, there's more shows and movies about prison then there are about scheming nobles, however the possibility of being shanked in the commissary line is non-existent with how prisons work on the server at the moment.

Of course I have a current vested interest in it, while its not supposed to be a reward its also not supposed to be an OOC punishment. Creating a large singular cell for regular offenders would facilitate RP and make Prison an experience rather then a non-experience.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

I do not agree with a general population cell system for both the Citadel and the Gendarmerie. It creates a number of issues, and clashes with themes in Port-à-Lucine in specific to do so. However, in the Citadel, you can create prison roleplay by putting prisoners in cells near eachother instead of on opposite wings of the Citadel. It's easier to seek reform that way than to redesign the prison system.

I'm unaware of the themes it breaks, what splat book are you referring to or precedent. A communal cell is not going to shatter Port-à-Lucine setting, and if it did it deserve to be shattered for being so rigid and unbending. Remember Prisoners-of-the-Mist is not a translation of the paperbacks its an adaptations, besides there will still be isolated cells for those prisoners deemed too dangerous for public cells, too vulnerable and or privileged enough for private accommodation. It turns even the idea of isolation as a badge of honor or infamy for the character, pushing forward the story even if they're not interacting with the prison population.

I'd sooner look into enforcing standing orders for the Garda to put prisoners beside eachother (unless they lose their privileges of having a neighbour for some reason) than I would try to rebuild the cell system. Keep in mind, if you wanted to log in and RP with yourself in your cell, that's fine. And usually, Guards will facilitate visitation or they will arrive to feed your character/etc when they can make time. However, this being said, being in prison in real life can be similarly boring. It's not intended to be a reward system, and there are few fates more dulling than being stuck in a cell to stew on your thoughts.

Sometimes you have to remember that it not every step is a fun one. Whenever my characters have been in cells, I just hop to alts, play other games, or hop on when there's action. It's not that big of a deal.

In character consequences should remain in-character, just cause the setting is playing out does not mean it should be unrewarding or encourage you to log off and play other games. That is just bad design, it should build up the story. Imagine the exchange between two cellmates, the companionship of sharing this hardship with one another character, or the conflict that might arise.

Right now the system encourages me to spend my time else where.

[Glass Cannon]

Whether it's a gen pop cell or BSR's idea of non-blocking cell doors, either idea would be a considerable improvement on the current system

[BraveSirRobin]

I do not agree with a general population cell system for both the Citadel and the Gendarmerie. It creates a number of issues, and clashes with themes in Port-à-Lucine in specific to do so. However, in the Citadel, you can create prison roleplay by putting prisoners in cells near eachother instead of on opposite wings of the Citadel. It's easier to seek reform that way than to redesign the prison system.

I'm unaware of the themes it breaks, what splat book are you referring to or precedent. A communal cell is not going to shatter Port-à-Lucine setting, and if it did it deserve to be shattered for being so rigid and unbending. Remember Prisoners-of-the-Mist is not a translation of the paperbacks its an adaptations, besides there will still be isolated cells for those prisoners deemed too dangerous for public cells, or too vulnerable.

I'd sooner look into enforcing standing orders for the Garda to put prisoners beside eachother (unless they lose their privileges of having a neighbour for some reason) than I would try to rebuild the cell system. Keep in mind, if you wanted to log in and RP with yourself in your cell, that's fine. And usually, Guards will facilitate visitation or they will arrive to feed your character/etc when they can make time. However, this being said, being in prison in real life can be similarly boring. It's not intended to be a reward system, and there are few fates more dulling than being stuck in a cell to stew on your thoughts.

Sometimes you have to remember that it not every step is a fun one. Whenever my characters have been in cells, I just hop to alts, play other games, or hop on when there's action. It's not that big of a deal.

In character consequences should remain in-character, just cause the setting is playing out does not mean it should be unrewarding or encourage you to log off and play other games. That is just bad design, it should build up the story. Imagine the exchange between two cellmates, the companionship of sharing this hardship with one another character, or the conflict that might arise.

Right now the system encourages me to spend my time else where.

I'm not referring to a splat book, I'm referring to how prisoners have been treated by DM instruction in PaL over the last four or five-ish years. You are correct that it is an adaptation; Dementlieu as presented in the detail it is on PoTM is not accurate to the dot on source material.

Secondly, anything, and I mean -- Anything, when construed effectively is a player punishment via time invested. What punishes the character invariably punishes the player, unless it is something desired by the player that happens on their terms. I'm going to be honest, in Port-à-Lucine specifically, there aren't that many prisoners placed in a cell at one time. Even if there was a general population area implemented, it wouldn't resolve the general drudge of being thrown into a cell. It would rarely, in certain circumstances, do so. Unless someone is awaiting trial, which is a uniquely Port-à-Lucine affair, then they would only be in a cell for 1-3 days at most. Those convicted of high crimes, dangerous crimes, etc, would likely still be placed in isolated cellules rather than be left with other people they could harm. Those are the ones that wait for trial, and I can't think of a single case wherein someone who was going to trial for serious crimes wouldn't have been placed in isolation to begin with, except for cases in which they were arrested as a group and were put in a cell together, as a group.

The rest will rotate before another person is conveniently arrested. Typically, people are fined more often than they are put in a cell. To that end, I think just opening up the LoS on the cellules would facilitate more RP for the impromptu cell neighbour.

[Dardonas]

Edit: Just to be clear, I am a fan of prisoners being near eachother, and requirements to put them close to eachother in the Citadel, which has blocks of sometimes four to six cells in LoS of eachother. In the Gendarmerie's case, I've been asking for years for the cell doors to be changed to ones that do not block LoS, which the Gendarmerie only ever has 2-3 prisoners at a time. Put them side-by-side, issue solved.

I feel like this is quite similar to what I suggested.  At the end of the day, it's not going to create a massive influx of jail RP but either solution would at least alleviate it to the point where if there are other prisoners, there is something you can do without playing "hop online" tag with Gendarme, guests and friends. 

That said, I do stand by the idea that a shared cell would create far more roleplay than solitary ones as other people point out.  Think of all the different plots that can occur if you and your friend, or you and your enemies, get put into a small confined space with one another?  Plotting or conflict is the name of the game for RP, and I just feel that increasing avenues for this would be in everyone's best interest, and create more healthy conflict-consequence roleplay than fear of corpse hiding.

[Glass Cannon]

The main advantage of BSR's suggestion is that it's a quick fix: it just requires changing the cell door types, as opposed to adding an entire new kind of cell.

[BraveSirRobin]

Edit: Just to be clear, I am a fan of prisoners being near eachother, and requirements to put them close to eachother in the Citadel, which has blocks of sometimes four to six cells in LoS of eachother. In the Gendarmerie's case, I've been asking for years for the cell doors to be changed to ones that do not block LoS, which the Gendarmerie only ever has 2-3 prisoners at a time. Put them side-by-side, issue solved.

I feel like this is quite similar to what I suggested.  At the end of the day, it's not going to create a massive influx of jail RP but either solution would at least alleviate it to the point where if there are other prisoners, there is something you can do without playing "hop online" tag with Gendarme, guests and friends. 

That said, I do stand by the idea that a shared cell would create far more roleplay than solitary ones as other people point out.  Think of all the different plots that can occur if you and your friend, or you and your enemies, get put into a small confined space with one another?  Plotting or conflict is the name of the game for RP, and I just feel that increasing avenues for this would be in everyone's best interest, and create more healthy conflict-consequence roleplay than fear of corpse hiding.

I believe that prisoners being in cells near eachother would be great. That makes sense to me, but a general population area wouldn't really change all that much. By the book, in Port for the Gendarmes in specific:

You do a minor crime, and it's significant enough they don't just fine you, 1-3 days.

You do a serious crime, you are arrested. Gendarme posts on the forum, the DM Team huddle in secret, DM NPC posts a day or two later with what to do with them. Whether it's a trial, execution, or a lengthy sentence. If it's a trial, it can go on for a few weeks, sometimes months, during times of low DM traffic. Not such a huge issue these days.

Unless prison sentences are extended over days, weeks, months, like in real prisons, I doubt you are going to find the kind of prison gang roleplay you are interested in finding from a general population cell. In-fact, I half-expect people will not even know the other prisoners are in said cells, as they often log once the Gendarmes aren't present. So if Gendarme Jean brings in another prisoner, unless they go out of their way to inform you about who else is there, you contact them OOC via Discord, and then you both hop on to RP within the 1-3 day window (the most common circumstance) then you aren't really changing anything. And in many cases, people do not want their Discords advertised, play on hidden alt accounts, or generally hide their identities to obfuscate OOC communications. This creates further issues, wherein some cases releases and RP ends up being scheduled via the forums. It also means that finding that other prisoner just isn't guaranteed.

That's why I don't think gen pop is that useful of an idea. I think opening up LoS in the Gendarmerie is a better idea, there are four cells all within earshot of eachother if they weren't blocked off for LoS. It's also a really quick, easy solution that's likely to get the Devs on it. Restructuring/rebuilding decade old area maps with scripts? Not so much. In the case of the Garda, they can already do it easy enough if they want to. The Citadel has open LoS cells in close proximity to eachother.

[Fungal Artillery]

Gen. Pop. Is a good idea.

In addition to making prisons more RP friendly, how about also introducing a minor atmospheric character faction called "The Usual Suspects" or something. These characters' entire In game existence would be behind bars and their function would be to provide roleplay and entertainment to people in prison. Some could even be dangerous in an MPC sort of way.

They obviously wouldn't be anyone's main character, but as soon as the faction gets wind that there is a prisoner in the jail, they can hop on their alts.

Being there would be such a more colorful experience if you had Johnny "Never did nothing" and Wumbo Knife-Fist as your cellmates.

[Rubi]

As someone that's been concerned about the same things in the past, I'm highly in support of these ideas too! I know my times in jail would have made much more impact with the ability to roleplay with more people than those I'm forced to badger and message constantly just so that I can play my character. I feel that at the end of the day, realism is all well and good but having your ability to play your character that you've been having fun with taken away is bad.

Obviously no one has any desire to do this to someone else, but if my last time being arrested taught me anything it's that the factions that are allowed to jail characters are also often busy. Having a character jailed shouldn't be a temporary lull in your roleplayer, but a way to create more of it.

[Derek Jeter]

Seems like a good idea to me. Jail usually means doing something else or alt time. +1

[firelord111]

If this is going to be a thing i would like expansion of none lethal punishments incase the prisoned person oocly wants to do prison rp since right now the sentences are mostly done day or two after the prison.

[Mark Johansen]

I've played a vallaki garda on and off now for almost a decade. There is some reasons that might result you to be locked up for a period of time but one of the primary rules of jailing as a garda is "if you are going to jail someone you need to make sure that you will be able to be there for that person or that other people will be able to be there as your stand in.". It's always been my personal preference to allow players to roam around instead of actually letting them sit in a cell for a week. There is many different alternative forms of punishment that could be enforced by the guard in question.

I won't write out the whole rule thread from the garda but remember a lot of the time ooc consideration and communication makes the game a lot more fun for everyone.

I don't see a need to change the way the citadel is structured as it's very rare that multiple people is locked up for a longer duration together, moste end up in the holding cages to serve their 1-2 nights while the garda dish out other punishments. Personally I'd suggest reaching out a hand to the garda oocly or ic trying to figure out an alternative punishment and have it add to both your rp.

[ladylena]

I can remember when troukk was running the cult of nerull, one of the things he made sure we all did, was if we took a prisoner, we had to be able to provide plenty of rp for them. I still stick by that to this day. If I'm going to be kidnapping someone or taking them hostage, I want to be able to give them rp. I've been jailed and experienced both having rp and having none. Having rp makes it ok, when there is no rp, it just makes you want to not play the character and that just doesn't sit with me.

I do like the idea of a gen pop, or maybe even placing people side by side so they can rp with each other.

I remember a time when the garda would offer you the chance to go do mining for punishment for a crime. I think even at one point one player was wanting to play a jailed character so people who are in jail can have some rp.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I, personally, feel that a combination would be pretty ideal. A couple larger cells for holding groups, and then the regular cells. I don't agree with see-through doors for one simple reason: sometimes you want/need to separate PCs, and sometimes you don't want to broadcast what's going on within the cell to the entire prison.

Unfortunately, IC circumstances of late are probably going to mean that gen. pop cells are off the table for a little bit.

[Hypatia]

As a conesuier of fine jails in PotM, I’d say the Garda jail is more fun because they have a nice screaming ambiance in the background, the torches are less noisy and they already have community cells. The last time the Templars were locked up there it was a room with connected cells made out of bars; we could see and RP with each other which was nice. That said, last time I was in Port cells, I did manage to identify and RP with some of the other prisoners by talking through the door. Not ideal but better than counting bricks.

[SardineTheAncestor]

You can't have a criminal underworld without a prison system that provides a backdrop for roleplay. I'd like to see an upgrade in this department too.

[Quartermaster]

I'll just add that a jail Gen-Pop would make one hell of a NCW event. Imagine if the entire week everyone was in jail, either as a guard, or prisoner.

[Hypatia]

Want to live.... get a shiv

[Maverick]

Depending on the sentence I think having a little Prisoner Mining Camp up in Krofburg could provide some interesting RP. Or other Community Work.

[EO]

I'll add a large shared cell in Port-à-Lucine; it would make sense for more minor offenses. I don't think it's needed in Vallaki since the cells already communicate with one another, not to mention there is more limited room to add that without redoing the area entirely.