Author Topic: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade  (Read 1300 times)

Dardonas

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Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« on: April 08, 2021, 11:11:48 PM »
So, after playing both of these classes here is some feedback I might offer in terms of how to better suit their kits.

Quote
Voodan Spells:

6th circle
- Flesh to Stone

I think it's straightforward as a spell, seeing as how Voodans get the massive AoE Flesh to Stone spell at level 17.  Flesh to Stone is already used mostly as a flavor spell, but I felt like it was an oversight not to include it when Stone to Flesh was included.  I think thematically it fits perfectly into the Voodan spell list.

Quote
Hexblade Spells:

1st Circle
- Shield
- Blade Weave (possible 2nd circle)

2nd or 3rd Circle
- Flame Weapon
- Sonic Weapon/Darkfire/Frost Weapon/(or new 1d6 elemental type)
- Cat's Grace

4th Circle
- Shadow Shield OR Greater Mage Armor
- Mind Fog

When playing a Hexblade, I felt that a lot of spells in their spell list had some use but there were a handful that just were lackluster and could easily be expanded on while keeping the class the same.

Shield is pretty classic as an arcane spellcaster ability.  As there exists a helmet in game that gives spell slots, it would negate the need for Hexblades to swap out enchanted helmet for the deflection modifier, it would increase Hexblade AC baseline (which is a major class problem currently), and it would give a use to a 1st level spell slot.

Blade Weave is a spell that sits thematically well for a Hexblade and is under-utilized by Wizards/Sorcs.  It would give another option for a good first level spell to take as a Hexblade considering after a point you no longer need a regular Magic Weapon.  Treacherous weapon lasts for too little of a duration and its effects can better be achieved by the baseline Hexblade's Curse with a free action.

A second or third circle way to enhance your weapon with elemental damage would be a godsend for a Hexblade.  The thing about these spells is that while they are convenient, they are balanced in that varnishes replace the need for them.  Being unable to "hex" your blade, as it were, as a Hexblade, seems like a bit of an oversight.

Lastly, on the topic of AC: a Hexblade's largest problem, from what I can see, is the lack of AC.  You either have to dump strength and go dex-based build or take a heavy armor feat, then cast your spells outside of your heavy armor before fighting.   I think that if heavy armor isn't changed as not to induce spell failure, the other way forward is to offer Hexblades ways they can buff their AC themselves.  While Greater Mage Armor steps on the toes of Wizards/Sorcerers, Hexblades are described as being arcane casters in the likes of Sorcerers.  If not Greater Mage Armor, then surely Shadow Shield would be another viable option. Shadow Shield spell fits the aesthetic of the Hexblade much more than Shadow Form (as a caveat, Shadow Form fits Bards more than it does Hexblades).  I would simply replace Shadow Form at 4th circle for something that would benefit their AC, leaning towards Shadow Shield.   Shadow Form is largely useless unless somehow a Hexblade can cross class stealth.  You cannot achieve 4th circle casting with multiclassing unless its an odd, niche build like Pale Master/Hexblade. 

On Mind Fog: It's a cool spell.  It's not used a lot, and I think it'd be neat having it as a Hexblade aesthetically.  It'd fit some of their abilities as well, such as Feeblemind, and it'd have really cool synergy with Blade Weave if it's given.

I am open to discussion over this and critique, as well as addition of any other spells that people might think are beneficial to the class identity.

Edit: Added cat's grace considering dex builds seem to be what's utilized the most given their status with light armor.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:58:38 AM by Dardonas »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 01:40:59 AM »
Mm, I've suggested Cat's Grace and Blade Weave in the past for Hexblade but they're going by the books, so it wasn't being put in.

Kaospyri

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 02:20:45 AM »
Quite frankly Hexblade's 1st and 2nd spells are already amazing. Though Cat's Grace would open up build variety rather than directly increase power (by much, ultimately a hexblade would end up having to choose which of their very good 2nd level spells are worth knowing) which would be good. Only their 3rd and 4th level spells are largely unappealing and so multiclassing is more (perhaps too) attractive, a fourth spell level option beyond Improved Invisibility (which is still probably worth it) might change that I suppose.
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Dardonas

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 02:35:43 AM »
Quite frankly Hexblade's 1st and 2nd spells are already amazing. Though Cat's Grace would open up build variety rather than directly increase power (by much, ultimately a hexblade would end up having to choose which of their very good 2nd level spells are worth knowing) which would be good. Only their 3rd and 4th level spells are largely unappealing and so multiclassing is more (perhaps too) attractive, a fourth spell level option beyond Improved Invisibility (which is still probably worth it) might change that I suppose.

The second circle spells are mostly good (bar the need for Cat's grace) but the first, third, and forth I find rather lackluster.  There are some good early choices for 1st level.  Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Weapon, though these mostly become useless as player characters progress and get itemized.  Bloodletting, while a neat concept, is completely negated by any DR, even a ghostly visage.  The other choices are situational and don't lend themselves for much in the Hexblade's class thematics.  Paladins, for instance, get Bless Weapon as a 1st level which is useful at all stages.

Fungal Artillery

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 02:59:12 AM »
I have no strong opinions on the Voodan suggestion. But if it's added to Voodan, let it be added to Druid aswell because that's where Voodan's flesh/stone related spells come from.

Quote
Hexblade Spells:

1st Circle
- Shield
- Blade Weave (possible 2nd circle)

2nd or 3rd Circle
- Flame Weapon
- Sonic Weapon/Darkfire/Frost Weapon/(or new 1d6 elemental type)
- Cat's Grace

4th Circle
- Shadow Shield OR Greater Mage Armor
- Mind Fog

Alright so I play a lvl 13 Hexblade. Here's my 2 cents.

- Shield. One of the better low level AC buffs in the game. Only rivaled and ultimately bested by significantly high level cleric's shield of faith. I don't think this should be on any other spell list than the mages' unless it is overhauled.

- Bladeweave.  A strong spell in its own right, but with a Hexblade's debuffs this quickly becomes an "I win" button.

- Elemental weapon spell.  This wouldn't change much. I don't care either way.

-  Cat's grace. While not on the class' official spell list, it would be a quality of life thing. I wouldn't mind this.

- Shadowshield. Hard no. Shadowshield is a ridiculously powerful spell as it is, as an 7th level mage spell.

- Greater Magic Armor. I think this would make the class a little bit too independent on others. I think it should remain a mage only spell.

There's good spells on the 4th circle list of spells for Hexblades. Also ones you're never going to see the full benefits of if you hadn't gone with a pure build, simply because of the spell slots.
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Dardonas

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 03:50:24 AM »
Alright so I play a lvl 13 Hexblade. Here's my 2 cents.

- Shield. One of the better low level AC buffs in the game. Only rivaled and ultimately bested by significantly high level cleric's shield of faith. I don't think this should be on any other spell list than the mages' unless it is overhauled.

- Bladeweave.  A strong spell in its own right, but with a Hexblade's debuffs this quickly becomes an "I win" button.

- Elemental weapon spell.  This wouldn't change much. I don't care either way.

-  Cat's grace. While not on the class' official spell list, it would be a quality of life thing. I wouldn't mind this.

- Shadowshield. Hard no. Shadowshield is a ridiculously powerful spell as it is, as an 7th level mage spell.

- Greater Magic Armor. I think this would make the class a little bit too independent on others. I think it should remain a mage only spell.

There's good spells on the 4th circle list of spells for Hexblades. Also ones you're never going to see the full benefits of if you hadn't gone with a pure build, simply because of the spell slots.

On the issue of the "I win" button with Bladeweave, there's also another issue with that argument.  A hexblade can easily just use their curse to turn Knockdown/Imp Knockdown into an "I win" button too, but it exists.  Bladeweave doesn't hit multiple targets.  Someone who is subject to a Hexblade unleashing all their curses is going to struggle to duel them no matter what, and that's part of where the class shines.

One of the problems is that Hexblades lack AC.  Seeing as a Hexblade is highly related to Sorcerer, I see no reason why Shield wouldn't be a good fit for them; people would just end up using the cheap item that gives the shield spell and has fifty charges on it otherwise.  For Greater Mage Armor, Hexblades still require DR to do dungeons.  Mages will still have a place without a doubt if the spells were given.

On spell lists, objectively, they have some good spells in their lists but nothing shines.  Bards get Shadow Shield and it is arguably a better spell for Hexblades than Bards, thematically speaking.  Paladins get Holy Sword, Blackguards now get Unholy Sword.  While there are "good spells" on the Hexblade, there isn't anything that sticks out and that's part of the issue; Bards get Shadow Shield, Mass Haste, Mass Cat's and other Mass Spells.  Hexblades either get a few offensive spells that have some merit, or just some self buffs but not enough to help the class to be on par with what a spellsword should actually be.  If you want the spellblade class aesthetic, it's sadly still left to Paladin, Cleric, or Bard.  Which is a shame given what Hexblade could be and what it's marketed as.

Edit: I had a goof moment, Bards don't get Shadow Shield, that's just their UMD.  My mistake, though I still think it'd be a good fit for Hexblade thematically and stand by that.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:57:48 AM by Dardonas »

Fungal Artillery

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 03:59:51 AM »
Only wizards/sorcerers have the ability to cast  Shadow Shield.

If a Bard is seen applying that to themselves it is most definately a spell scroll.

I have problems with Shadow Shield mechanically in the context of NWN. No other spell makes one immune to an entire school of magic. I think it's an OP spell, but since we're unlikely to see it change I'd rather it stayed contained as a high lvl mage spell / high UMD scroll.
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Kaospyri

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 04:54:49 AM »
The second circle spells are mostly good (bar the need for Cat's grace) but the first, third, and forth I find rather lackluster.  There are some good early choices for 1st level.  Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Weapon, though these mostly become useless as player characters progress and get itemized.  Bloodletting, while a neat concept, is completely negated by any DR, even a ghostly visage.  The other choices are situational and don't lend themselves for much in the Hexblade's class thematics.  Paladins, for instance, get Bless Weapon as a 1st level which is useful at all stages.

While I feel like self-buffing Mage Armor and Magic Weapon is valuable enough to justify normally, I suppose the point that other martial casters have 1st level spells that are always useful is fair but I definitely don't think Shield is it and Bladeweave would be far too overpowered compared to the equivalents in the other martial casting classes (Ram's Might for Ranger and Bless Weapon for Paladin). If there needs to be an always useful first level spell for Hexblade it should be something else.
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Hallvor Hadiya

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 05:33:40 AM »
This seems like a good addition +1
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Delita

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2021, 05:57:05 AM »
I have problems with Shadow Shield mechanically in the context of NWN. No other spell makes one immune to an entire school of magic

*coughs* Lesser Mind Blank and the school of Enchantment *coughs*

HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2021, 06:12:14 AM »
+1:

-Blade Weave
-Cats Grace
-Flame Weapon
-Sonic Weapon
-Mind Fog


-1
Shield
Greater Mage Armor
Shadow Shield

I’m all for making the class better at what they specialize in, but I think the low AC is an intentional and needed weakness. Hexblades should remain dependent on other classes to reach that higher level of potential and I think it makes sense that they can’t self-buff their AC higher. Shadowshield is one of the best spells in the game, I wouldn’t give it to anyone who doesn’t have it already (for balance issues). Out of the three, I think shield would be a tolerable addition to their spell list. I definitely wouldn’t give them greater mage armor or shadowshield though.

inkcorvid

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 12:13:19 PM »
I have problems with Shadow Shield mechanically in the context of NWN. No other spell makes one immune to an entire school of magic

*coughs* Lesser Mind Blank and the school of Enchantment *coughs*

True Seeing and the school of Illusion ;)

Or even Clarity, which is accessible cheaply to everyone. Though those spells render Illusion (to a lesser extent) and Enchantment (to a much greater extent) very ineffective in PvP. Though I hear Overseer Willy "War Crimes" Weyland is going to make dreamcatchers illegal once elected by a landslide as Culture Advisor, so there are promising signs in that regard.
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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2021, 04:26:42 AM »
I'm a little late to this, but I think that the strongest part of a hexblade's spell list is easily their level 2 spells. To the point where I've taken Invisibility Sphere and use it on myself just to free up a known level 2 slot.

I think that adding a few more spells would definitely make the spell selection a bit harder. Right now, there's very clearly "best" spells to be had. The only things I think could be added to level 2 are:

Cat's Grace - Hexblades can cast multiple animal wards already. Seems odd that they can't cast this one. Plus, it would open up some fun new builds. Dexblade time.

Flame Weapon - It seems reasonable to me that a Hexblade would be able to hex or empower their blade.



And then some level 3 spells I think would fit the Hexblade and make the spell list a bit more interesting:

Keen edge/Weapon of Impact - This feeds into the 'luck' aspect of the Hexblade and is a very nice quality of life spell.

Frost Weapon/Sonic Weapon - Again, a Hexblade should be able to cast magic on their blade.

Cone of Dimness - This one could stay or go. It's another way to make your enemy miserable, which seems to be the point of Hexblade.

Gust of Wind - A very situational and admittedly non-Hexblade-y spell. Feeds into the anti-caster aspect of the build, but I can see that it doesn't really fit the theme.



And level 4 spells:

Shackle - Again, a spell that makes life harder for your enemy. Hex-y.

Minor Globe of Invuln. Or Lesser Spell Mantle - Plays into the anti-caster themes that the class can lean into.



I agree that the lower AC is definitely an intentional weakness in the class and I think it is a much needed one. I don't think shield, GMA, or shadow shield should be added.
I'm neutral on Blade Weave.
I think Mind Fog is neat, but it might make the curses basically non-savable to many builds.

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Heresyteller

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2021, 07:31:01 PM »
I have no strong opinions on the Voodan suggestion. But if it's added to Voodan, let it be added to Druid aswell because that's where Voodan's flesh/stone related spells come from.

Quote
Hexblade Spells:

1st Circle
- Shield
- Blade Weave (possible 2nd circle)

2nd or 3rd Circle
- Flame Weapon
- Sonic Weapon/Darkfire/Frost Weapon/(or new 1d6 elemental type)
- Cat's Grace

4th Circle
- Shadow Shield OR Greater Mage Armor
- Mind Fog

Alright so I play a lvl 13 Hexblade. Here's my 2 cents.

- Shield. One of the better low level AC buffs in the game. Only rivaled and ultimately bested by significantly high level cleric's shield of faith. I don't think this should be on any other spell list than the mages' unless it is overhauled.

- Bladeweave.  A strong spell in its own right, but with a Hexblade's debuffs this quickly becomes an "I win" button.

- Elemental weapon spell.  This wouldn't change much. I don't care either way.

-  Cat's grace. While not on the class' official spell list, it would be a quality of life thing. I wouldn't mind this.

- Shadowshield. Hard no. Shadowshield is a ridiculously powerful spell as it is, as an 7th level mage spell.

- Greater Magic Armor. I think this would make the class a little bit too independent on others. I think it should remain a mage only spell.

There's good spells on the 4th circle list of spells for Hexblades. Also ones you're never going to see the full benefits of if you hadn't gone with a pure build, simply because of the spell slots.
Playing an Hexblade and I think they need more spells in their list, I think this spells would give such a good change to the class, so I say +1.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 07:36:25 PM by Heresyteller »

Heresyteller

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2021, 07:36:41 PM »
I'm a little late to this, but I think that the strongest part of a hexblade's spell list is easily their level 2 spells. To the point where I've taken Invisibility Sphere and use it on myself just to free up a known level 2 slot.

I think that adding a few more spells would definitely make the spell selection a bit harder. Right now, there's very clearly "best" spells to be had. The only things I think could be added to level 2 are:

Cat's Grace - Hexblades can cast multiple animal wards already. Seems odd that they can't cast this one. Plus, it would open up some fun new builds. Dexblade time.

Flame Weapon - It seems reasonable to me that a Hexblade would be able to hex or empower their blade.



And then some level 3 spells I think would fit the Hexblade and make the spell list a bit more interesting:

Keen edge/Weapon of Impact - This feeds into the 'luck' aspect of the Hexblade and is a very nice quality of life spell.

Frost Weapon/Sonic Weapon - Again, a Hexblade should be able to cast magic on their blade.

Cone of Dimness - This one could stay or go. It's another way to make your enemy miserable, which seems to be the point of Hexblade.

Gust of Wind - A very situational and admittedly non-Hexblade-y spell. Feeds into the anti-caster aspect of the build, but I can see that it doesn't really fit the theme.



And level 4 spells:

Shackle - Again, a spell that makes life harder for your enemy. Hex-y.

Minor Globe of Invuln. Or Lesser Spell Mantle - Plays into the anti-caster themes that the class can lean into.



I agree that the lower AC is definitely an intentional weakness in the class and I think it is a much needed one. I don't think shield, GMA, or shadow shield should be added.
I'm neutral on Blade Weave.
I think Mind Fog is neat, but it might make the curses basically non-savable to many builds.
+1

cooachlyfe

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2021, 03:36:06 PM »
I think voodans should have access to Blackstaff too, though balancing might be a problem.

mccarthy00

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2021, 07:29:17 AM »
I think voodans should have access to Blackstaff too, though balancing might be a problem.

Voodan are missing the wizard only spells for a reason, need to leave them something XD

tylernwn

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2021, 02:23:01 PM »
As it stands voodan already has the largest spell selection of any class. They dont need to steal anymore iconic/unique spells from other classes. If they get anything new, it should be voodan only spells that are made and balanced only for them.

For hexblade, obviously no shadowshield, greater mage armor, or shield. Blade weave sounds dangerously strong in their hands too, but might work as a 4th circle spell for them (make a real sacrifice for it). If bladeweave is added, then mindfog should not be because the synergies will be too strong (hex and minfog and bladeweave vs your will).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 02:36:47 PM by tylernwn »

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2021, 06:24:07 PM »
Hexblade's spell list is sparse because of adherence to the PnP, if I understand correctly. Giving them Cat's should be fine, since NWN and PotM give a lot of classes zoo buffs they don't normally have (as I've enumerated in a dead thread about ranger and bard balance.) I don't think giving them weapon buffs will be that noticeable, either. Bards have them, after all, and with their song up they might as well be a +1 AB class like Hexblade is.

There's a lot to say about the Voodan spell list. Its source is a 3.5 book. The 3.5 bard spell list is different from the modified 3e bard spell list we use on PotM. A PnP Voodan wouldn't get, for instance, Mage Armor, or Keen Edge.

That said, since they already get Cast in Stone, a normal Flesh to Stone seems fine. Though Druids should get it first.


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Re: Spell Suggestions for Voodan and Hexblade
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2021, 06:31:31 PM »
giving hexblade shadowshield or GMA would be extremely unbalancing - the rest would be fine

voodan is a broken class that needs no more tools