Reputation & Prestige: Materializing Character Levels in Dialogue

[BraveSirRobin]

I was just posting in the other thread that was expressing concern regarding high-level characters engaging low-level aMPCs/MPCs and how that may detract from the setting, or the expereince of Gothic Horror. This is a conversation that frequently comes about, on PoTM -- Responsibility to not fight low-level characters, and an implied hidden set of rules that regulates conflict between different level ranges. This thread isn't about the specifics.

However, it is more-or-less impossible to gauge someone's level unless they're Chaotic, and you're a Paladin. At which point, the strength of their Chaotic Aura directly corresponds to their character level. Blackguards get a similar feature, sensing Lawful auras instead. There is a lot of responsibility placed on the player to understand the level range of an enemy character, say -- You are playing a high-level, level 20 Bounty Hunter, and a bounty crops up, or you're an assassin. You're someone in conflict, or has been hired to engage in conflict with another party, and you know absolutely nothing about the above party.

The only avenue you can use to gain more information as to their skill, that may be accurate, would be out-of-character channels which is tantamount to metagaming their threat level to you and can be considered in bad taste. Not that the dissemination of in-character information into out-of-character mediums in regards to things like this has ever not been performed by the community. I disagree with it. It does however, happen.

I'd like to propose a Reputaiton & Prestige system that would offer information via the examine tool that would suggest the worldiness and reputation of a character. We live in an active, lightly simulated worldspace, where someone who has achieved the skill at arms to be level twenty should have an impact, and would likely maintain some manner of reputation that could aid in choosing to engage them, whether as the offender, or the defender. Paladins and Blackguards have abilities that do just this, but to very little effect. Various stages, (2-6, 7-12, 13-17, 18-20) all have different power levels that read out to them.

This text could be as simple as:

15-20:

Code: [Select]

Jean Claude looks to be worldly. Locals rumour he has traveled the lands and seen much, his skill at arms great.
10-15:

Code: [Select]

Jean Claude looks to be travelled. Rumours spout that he travels the lands, and has maintained some skill at arms.
5-10:

Code: [Select]

Jean Claude looks eager. Few rumours exist about him, but from what you can gather he has traveled some in his lifetime and maintains the means to defend himself.
0-5:

Code: [Select]

Jean Claude looks fresh. There are no rumours about him, marking him as either exceedingly foreign, or freshly brought from the Mists.

With this in mind, it alleviates responsibility from the shoulders of the players to borderline metagame information about other people's characters so that they may avoid out-of-character stigma and judgemental behavior, and adhere to the out-of-character expectations of the community. Without a feature like this, pressing that guilt upon them is unfair, and is damaging to everyone's ability to enjoy the game. Thus, unless a feature such as this exists, it is virtually impossible to legally satisfy those who hold this concern.

[SardineTheAncestor]

This is a cool idea, but for it to work right, I think you should be able to choose what descriptors appear, sort of like Mad Libs, and which descriptors are available should be modified by your class.

So bards can choose to have something about how the rumours following them are about their artistic works, rogues can choose something about being shady, notorious thieves, etc., clerics can choose something about representing their particular faith. Just little stuff like that, and it goes from "hapless rookie" to "seasoned veteran" as they level up, same as the other stuff.

[firelord111]

This is a good idea but people might meta with this system aswell perhaps putting the intervals every 6 levels  with 18 19 and 20 being the last one would make it harder for people to guess exactly what level someone is.

[BraveSirRobin]

This is a cool idea, but for it to work right, I think you should be able to choose what descriptors appear, sort of like Mad Libs, and which descriptors are available should be modified by your class.

So bards can choose to have something about how the rumours following them are about their artistic works, rogues can choose something about being shady, notorious thieves, etc., clerics can choose something about representing their particular faith. Just little stuff like that, and it goes from "hapless rookie" to "seasoned veteran" as they level up, same as the other stuff.

It's not intended to be a strictly IC dialogue, just a flavorful indicator of someone's skill. You face similar issues with the current attribute description system, in which someone roleplaying an incredibly ripped 20 STR Barbarian is visibly, very strong, and their indicator may indeed say they are.

But then you have Vampires, who read out the same way, except usually they're even higher in STR due to their racial benefits. So a Vampire who is a demure woman may be stronger than said Barbarian, yet the strength is wholly preternatural. Despite this, they will still be examined as, 'Physically extremely strong,' or whatever the descriptor is. The minority of this server, the acute minority, do not dungeon whatsoever. Everyone has dungeoned and everyone has skill at arms to some degree befitting their class -- After-all, you've probably racked up a kill count in the thousands at that point. Though, flavor text for class could indicate their skills, it gets muddled in multi-classing. I've known Bards who do not perform art, and have hidden their bard card from the world (especially in Barovia) and it suggests that classes, base classes in particular, have linear expectations of how they're to be played.

This is a good idea but people might meta with this system aswell perhaps putting the intervals every 6 levels  with 18 19 and 20 being the last one would make it harder for people to guess exactly what level someone is.

I'd leave it up to the Team on level ranges, and exact wording of the boxes. It's a generalized example, however I should state this system already exists in the game for Blackguards and Paladins, showing level ranges as above described via flavor text. It's just incredibly niche. It would require only a bit of recoding and adjustment.

[Famous Seamus]

I'm in favor of this suggestion or something along these lines. I've had some adversarial encounters with other PCs in which I haven't been sure how hard/soft to go because I'd never seen them before and didn't want to crack down on a newly misted or new player.

It would also add the potential to create a bit of flavor that could enhance RP if handled properly. Being in the Mists long-term affects characters' appearance and demeanor in ways that could offer hints about their skill level. Would a newly misted step to [insert level 20 character's name here] when the veteran would clearly look like a veteran? Probably not, which is sensible, or if they did, how much more colorful the scene could be if they better understood who they're interacting with!

I recognize there could be some drawbacks, too, hence my use of "could."

Not sure how implementing it would work, though. I don't think the paladin/blackguard "Detect" ability could be a template. As I understand it, those pick up how far along the lawful or chaotic axis a character is, not their level, but I may be mistaken.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I've known Bards who do not perform art, and have hidden their bard card from the world (especially in Barovia) and it suggests that classes, base classes in particular, have linear expectations of how they're to be played.

Well, the idea with the part I mentioned would be that you have the choice to display that or go with something more generic.

I don't mean that it should hide the overall indicator of their power, but it would be cool to have an option. There might be too many little details to slip in there though, wasted creative work if most people switch this off to hide their class(es).

All in all, I don't think this is a bad idea. If anything I'd like to see the attribute description go in favour of this, because it's so often wrong, despite being so precisely worded and sometimes targeted at very specific attribute ranges, as you said. This on the other hand is a lot more innocuous, and it could be fine tuned.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm in favor of this suggestion or something along these lines. I've had some adversarial encounters with other PCs in which I haven't been sure how hard/soft to go because I'd never seen them before and didn't want to crack down on a newly misted or new player.

It would also add the potential to create a bit of flavor that could enhance RP if handled properly. Being in the Mists long-term affects characters' appearance and demeanor in ways that could offer hints about their skill level. Would a newly misted step to [insert level 20 character's name here] when the veteran would clearly look like a veteran? Probably not, which is sensible, or if they did, how much more colorful the scene could be if they better understood who they're interacting with!

I recognize there could be some drawbacks, too, hence my use of "could."

Not sure how implementing it would work, though. I don't think the paladin/blackguard "Detect" ability could be a template. As I understand it, those pick up how far along the lawful or chaotic axis a character is, not their level, but I may be mistaken.

You are mistaken. They do not pick up your alignment axis, they pick up your character level. A level 2 will have a minor or weak aura, and a level 20 will have an overwhelming aura every time.

[BahamutZ3RO]

You are mistaken. They do not pick up your alignment axis, they pick up your character level. A level 2 will have a minor or weak aura, and a level 20 will have an overwhelming aura every time.

I am 98% sure that this actually works as the other person said; they detect law/chaos instead of good/evil due to the nature of the Demiplane. It's actually something from the rulebooks.

I also think this is a great idea, though, and I've never understood why we don't have a way to gauge people's "threat levels".

[Glass Cannon]

Paladins detect Chaotic auras, Blackguards detect Lawful auras.

[foxtale]

I personally wouldn't like to see this implemented. I've seen low levels successfully act like high level adventurers for their own benefit and I also think high level characters should be given the chance to behave in an unassuming way - something that I wouldn't even tie to a skill to mask because low charisma in itself can have this effect naturally.

I like that we can see other character's physical ability scores, but I also like that a line was drawn for intelligence as to how precise you can be in assessing it. There are things about people that are not written in their face and that is good - not just out of misplaced realism but because it means you have to RP to find out.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I guess it is kind of cheesy and unnecessary. I just thought of the implications with the disguise system too. "Where did this level 20 come from that nobody has heard of?" And we're back at square one with no solution to whatever the problem is.

[Phantasia]

There are a lot of other servers I have played on that let characters use their Perform/Bluff/Disguise score or whatever to "fib" their outward appearance that could neatly tie in with the disguise system and the examine tool here. I think this should be considered in a different light, and to allow players to choose whatever it is they flaunt (or hide).

[bloodless]

There are a lot of other servers I have played on that let characters use their Perform/Bluff/Disguise score or whatever to "fib" their outward appearance that could neatly tie in with the disguise system and the examine tool here. I think this should be considered in a different light, and to allow players to choose whatever it is they flaunt (or hide).

This seems like a good implementation, only I'm not sure how feasible it will be with how easily most disguises are broken presently. I have a full set (or just about) of disguise gear and that gets me a good way, but those items are nothing I would ever dream of taking to a remotely level-appropriate dungeon. So it remains a strictly social tool, if that.

[zDark Shadowz]

If you want to test a bounties' strength, just do what I did for NPC monsters - toss a summon at them first from invisibility and see how quickly they die. Run away before they get up seeing effects that would reveal who you are IC

[Neuwwwo]

I personally wouldn't like to see this implemented. I've seen low levels successfully act like high level adventurers for their own benefit and I also think high level characters should be given the chance to behave in an unassuming way - something that I wouldn't even tie to a skill to mask because low charisma in itself can have this effect naturally.

I like that we can see other character's physical ability scores, but I also like that a line was drawn for intelligence as to how precise you can be in assessing it. There are things about people that are not written in their face and that is good - not just out of misplaced realism but because it means you have to RP to find out.

Agreed with this. I don't like how it would kind of 'vault over' the RP you'd need to actually get that information, or the idea that to control your outward presentation you'd need to have the Disguise skill.

[tylernwn]

I like the idea, but it seems like it will immediately break down vs the disguise system. Someone disguised will not have a recognizable reputation. I’m not trying to dismiss the idea, just identify aspects that will have to be worked through

[Artemis]

I personally feel that the proposed system would not be a good idea. If people choose to have antagonistic roleplay then consequences are assumed to possibly happen. If someone is planning some sort of conflict, then they should do their research into the person they are planning such with. If anything, this will make intelligence gathering paramount and provide more RP.

If I choose a path that involves getting in other peoples way, or paint a target on my back then thats on me. With the PVP rules currently in place if they are enforced properly then I dont see a need to obfuscate things more.

[Hypatia]

I know I’m barking up a tree but I will never understand why this place isn’t level capped. A medium level cap for players where after 10 you only get feats when you level... but not for AMPCs and MPCs would make every aspect better. More content for everyone. Everyone can be involved, no one has ridiculous powers and no one is restricted from going around with each other. MPCs are more powerful and only with wits and exploiting weaknesses can you win. Horror.

[Yesper]

I'm not sure why that segue is appropriate here. If a level cap is put in, then a massive portion of the module would need to be reworked.

Back on topic, I strongly disagree with level-based info. We need only reveal what the character looks like. No more, no less. Reputation will be carried by word of mouth and their experience *should* show in how they carry themselves.

[Hypatia]

Mostly because this thread is a result of 20 levels to divide the player base. A bandaid won’t fix it.

Obviously it can’t happen. But I can dream

[BraveSirRobin]

I like the idea, but it seems like it will immediately break down vs the disguise system. Someone disguised will not have a recognizable reputation. I’m not trying to dismiss the idea, just identify aspects that will have to be worked through

It could be possible for someone disguised to be able to disguise their reputation & prestige as well, if we really wanted to. At that point, they are consenting to being unable to be ID'd for their power level. The goal is to create a system that allows someone to gauge how hard they need to go against someone else, but frankly I find the OOC policing of roleplay behavior to be abhorrent.

That being said, I have personally PvP'd before and have been harassed out-of-character for flexing on someone lower level than me, despite having no context or capability to understand the power level of their character without purposefully seeking meta information that may or may not influence my reaction to pursuing them.

[BraveSirRobin]

Mostly because this thread is a result of 20 levels to divide the player base. A bandaid won’t fix it.

Obviously it can’t happen. But I can dream

I forgot to reply to this, I don't typically double-post. This thread is a result of out-of-character chastisement and an extralegal set of expectations on how players should conduct themselves, and a mutual desire to find a way to develop mechanics that support these desires and to allow players to make these decisions easier, and legally.

It's so level 20 tom doesn't need to gank level 7 sammy. Or so level 7 sammy has some idea of what he's getting into with level 20 tom before he starts the antagonistic game and finds himself upset. However that's explained or decided, who knows.

[Hypatia]

Im not in favor of this. I remember vanilla NWN you could see someone's challenge rating. People universally hated it because High Levels would see some poor noob, and know they could beat him and act disrespectful. Not knowing if the person you're smarting off too is actually capable of mopping the floor with you encourages people to be a little more cautious and respectful. More importantly though, there is no way you should be able to tell if someone's super powered unless you've seen them in action. If you're worried about punching down, you can always send an OOC tell to the other person with your concern and see what they say.

I -am- in favor of something like "Detect Magic" however.  If you cast it on a person and they've got a lot of magic items that's a pretty good indication they are experienced, though not always. Its IC, its a PnP spell and it makes sense.

[zDark Shadowz]

Im not in favor of this. I remember vanilla NWN you could see someone's challenge rating. People universally hated it because High Levels would see some poor noob, and know they could beat him and act disrespectful. Not knowing if the person you're smarting off too is actually capable of mopping the floor with you encourages people to be a little more cautious and respectful. More importantly though, there is no way you should be able to tell if someone's super powered unless you've seen them in action. If you're worried about punching down, you can always send an OOC tell to the other person with your concern and see what they say.

I -am- in favor of something like "Detect Magic" however.  If you cast it on a person and they've got a lot of magic items that's a pretty good indication they are experienced, though not always. Its IC, its a PnP spell and it makes sense.

Way back when some level 15 talked smack to my level 8 wizard on another server that had challenge ratings viewable.

Phantasmal Killer put him in his place.

[Glass Cannon]

Reputation and prestige correlate with levels, but don't really have a causal relationship.  A level 20 Barbarian doesn't acquire a reputation as a badass just for being level 20, but for performing great deeds and having them recorded, which is what the IC forums and wiki are there to record.

Otherwise, I kinda agree with Hypatia's point. A Detect Magic spell is a good idea.