-Item: Herbalist Bags

[-Wing]

Could we get the weight of the small herbalist bags lowered from .5 down to .1?

[zDark Shadowz]

Might be nice but also remember that once a bag is full you can make them weightless by turning them into a claim, and you can mass-convert items within a box using the storage system too so it's fairly efficient for weight reduction. If you have so many full bags you are being weighed down I'd suggest doing this in the mean time because otherwise the other 20 herbs are still a factor anyway for the pouch, and you'd be making them into weightless claims anyway.

[HouseOfLament]

0.4 lbs can also make a difference to characters that get heavy armor proficiency but don't necessarily go heavy on strength every time, such as cleric

[MAB77]

Priests, or anyone else, that wish to use heavy armors and do not invest in strength have only themselves to blame. It's a choice they must assume. Same goes for hoarders that keep everything they find. Granted not everything make senses weight wise for items, but that probably applies to half the items of the game. Sometime in favor of the players, sometime not. Either way, this is no reason to change the weight of our current herbalism bags. They remain rather light, are not a significant source of encumbrance, and cost very little to store an render weightless anyway.

[-Wing]

When the herbalism structure was overhauled and expanded with new herbs, the weight of the craft doubled. My expectation is that this was a side-effect and not an intentional design choice for the craft.  Regardless of how we got here however, my suggestion is that it be reviewed and modified.

The acknowledgement that not all weights make sense isn't (to me) a reason to say that suggestions for change should be discounted.

At 20 pounds, I would also not dismiss this as an insignificant source of encumbrance.  I do use all of the tools listed in the posts (Storing every full bag as a weightless claim and using 60% magical bags).  The herb system is up to nearly 100 herbs now though, and to be able to keep them sorted as you're gathering means 50 pounds of Herbalist Bags alone (30, if you use 60%magic bags). (Note that I personally only have a 20lb burden rather than 30, as some herbs are quite rare).

Other methods of lowering weight (brew more often, for example) are often not feasible because herbs have to be collected over many regions and seasons.    This is not a situation caused by hoarding.

I believe it's not illogical for the small packed bags to be lighter than a Vaasi satchel, and that the change would be a nice convenience for players without significantly changing the dynamic of choice around what you invest your weight resources in.  Even with this change, the herbs themselves still have a significant amount of weight.

[Kaninchen]

I would guess the quality of life change sought here is when an herbalist is seeking to buy herbs from folk, they buy n number of pouches prior to advertising they are buying, so you wouldn't exactly have the option of storing them in a warehouse, if your intent is to purchase them, then go buy herbs, and try to manage the chaos by pouching in between transactions.

I don't know the number of different herb types off hand, or that can pop up in a season, but if you were to try and buy one pouch for each herb type, I can see how that would add up, with just empty pouches before you can sort, and then store at a warehouse.

E: sometimes the "another post has been made" message is from someone who makes a better argument than you do. Wing on top of things with data to back it up.

[BahamutZ3RO]

When the herbalism structure was overhauled and expanded with new herbs, the weight of the craft doubled. My expectation is that this was a side-effect and not an intentional design choice for the craft.  Regardless of how we got here however, my suggestion is that it be reviewed and modified.

The acknowledgement that not all weights make sense isn't (to me) a reason to say that suggestions for change should be discounted.

At 20 pounds, I would also not dismiss this as an insignificant source of encumbrance.  I do use all of the tools listed in the posts (Storing every full bag as a weightless claim and using 60% magical bags).  The herb system is up to nearly 100 herbs now though, and to be able to keep them sorted as you're gathering means 50 pounds of Herbalist Bags alone (30, if you use 60%magic bags). (Note that I personally only have a 20lb burden rather than 30, as some herbs are quite rare).

Other methods of lowering weight (brew more often, for example) are often not feasible because herbs have to be collected over many regions and seasons.    This is not a situation caused by hoarding.

I believe it's not illogical for the small packed bags to be lighter than a Vaasi satchel, and that the change would be a nice convenience for players without significantly changing the dynamic of choice around what you invest your weight resources in.  Even with this change, the herbs themselves still have a significant amount of weight.

Well said.

[Inti]

When the herbalism structure was overhauled and expanded with new herbs, the weight of the craft doubled. My expectation is that this was a side-effect and not an intentional design choice for the craft.  Regardless of how we got here however, my suggestion is that it be reviewed and modified.

The acknowledgement that not all weights make sense isn't (to me) a reason to say that suggestions for change should be discounted.

At 20 pounds, I would also not dismiss this as an insignificant source of encumbrance.  I do use all of the tools listed in the posts (Storing every full bag as a weightless claim and using 60% magical bags).  The herb system is up to nearly 100 herbs now though, and to be able to keep them sorted as you're gathering means 50 pounds of Herbalist Bags alone (30, if you use 60%magic bags). (Note that I personally only have a 20lb burden rather than 30, as some herbs are quite rare).

Other methods of lowering weight (brew more often, for example) are often not feasible because herbs have to be collected over many regions and seasons.    This is not a situation caused by hoarding.

I believe it's not illogical for the small packed bags to be lighter than a Vaasi satchel, and that the change would be a nice convenience for players without significantly changing the dynamic of choice around what you invest your weight resources in.  Even with this change, the herbs themselves still have a significant amount of weight.

Yes. Very well put indeed.

[MAB77]

When the herbalism structure was overhauled and expanded with new herbs, the weight of the craft doubled. My expectation is that this was a side-effect and not an intentional design choice for the craft.  Regardless of how we got here however, my suggestion is that it be reviewed and modified.

The acknowledgement that not all weights make sense isn't (to me) a reason to say that suggestions for change should be discounted.

At 20 pounds, I would also not dismiss this as an insignificant source of encumbrance.  I do use all of the tools listed in the posts (Storing every full bag as a weightless claim and using 60% magical bags).  The herb system is up to nearly 100 herbs now though, and to be able to keep them sorted as you're gathering means 50 pounds of Herbalist Bags alone (30, if you use 60%magic bags). (Note that I personally only have a 20lb burden rather than 30, as some herbs are quite rare).

Other methods of lowering weight (brew more often, for example) are often not feasible because herbs have to be collected over many regions and seasons.    This is not a situation caused by hoarding.

I believe it's not illogical for the small packed bags to be lighter than a Vaasi satchel, and that the change would be a nice convenience for players without significantly changing the dynamic of choice around what you invest your weight resources in.  Even with this change, the herbs themselves still have a significant amount of weight.

Actually as the one responsible for said overhaul, I totally counted on this effect. Your premise implies that you absolutely have to carry all types of herbs on your character, but you don't. It is only by choice that you do so instead of focusing on certain herbs/potions. It is a perfectly valid choice for you to make, but it is in turn quite alright that there be consequences to that choice. That consequence is that you have to deal with the weight increase with the more bags you use and the more herbs you collect.

You have to see this through a dev's lense too. It is a good thing if a player has to leave herbs behind because of strength/weight management issues. Those herbs will be picked by another player and a greater amount of player will have the opportunity to craft. This has the added value of (very slightly) slow down the progression on our easiest craft to master, and that too I see as a very good thing.

My latest update by the way precisely aimed at giving options to the higher level players NOT to pick all low level herbs. Now, nothing stops you from doing so anyway, but I absolutely believe the herbalism bags are totally fair considering the inventory management advantage they confer.

[Kiyosa]

Actually as the one responsible for said overhaul, I totally counted on this effect. Your premise implies that you absolutely have to carry all types of herbs on your character, but you don't. It is only by choice that you do so instead of focusing on certain herbs/potions. It is a perfectly valid choice for you to make, but it is in turn quite alright that there be consequences to that choice. That consequence is that you have to deal with the weight increase with the more bags you use and the more herbs you collect.

You have to see this through a dev's lense too. It is a good thing if a player has to leave herbs behind because of strength/weight management issues. Those herbs will be picked by another player and a greater amount of player will have the opportunity to craft. This has the added value of (very slightly) slow down the progression on our easiest craft to master, and that too I see as a very good thing.

My latest update by the way precisely aimed at giving options to the higher level players NOT to pick all low level herbs. Now, nothing stops you from doing so anyway, but I absolutely believe the herbalism bags are totally fair considering the inventory management advantage they confer.

A herbalist aiming to sell the potions they brew will want to have all kinds of herbs in order to brew all kinds of potions desired. And while they might not pick them themselves, giving your second point merit, they will at the very least buy them from lower level folks and will have to carry them around regardless. I, for one, would welcome a decrease in herb pouch weight for that reason.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Slowing down the craft makes things more grindy and contributes to hoarding because it fuels player frustration.

Also, no one is going to leave herbs behind, they'll chug a strength potion and continue hasting around the map.

The dev's lens should be "How would I want it to work if I played a herbalist? What's efficient for the server, engaging for the player, and pro-roleplay?"

I don't see where that lines up with keeping people hoovering up herbs for the longest possible amount of time and making inventory management even more of a time sink.

[MAB77]

A herbalist aiming to sell the potions they brew will want to have all kinds of herbs in order to brew all kinds of potions desired. And while they might not pick them themselves, giving your second point merit, they will at the very least buy them from lower level folks and will have to carry them around regardless. I, for one, would welcome a decrease in herb pouch weight for that reason.

I fail to see how the current herbalism bags weight prevent to do any of the things you say. People simply ought to invest in strength if they wish to carry everything easily. The real issue is there. Choices and consequences. Live by your built.

Slowing down the craft makes things more grindy and contributes to hoarding because it fuels player frustration.

My alternative to grinding (greater crafting XP reward, but with a soft cap) was sadly rejected by the player base (proof that I do listen to you guys). But I am looking out for alternatives if you have any to propose. As it stands, the grinding is a necessary detterent so that not everyone becomes a master quickly.

Also, no one is going to leave herbs behind, they'll chug a strength potion and continue hasting around the map.

Thank you for validating my point that it's only a strength issue, and not an herbalism bags weight  one.

The dev's lens should be "How would I want it to work if I played a herbalist? What's efficient for the server, engaging for the player, and pro-roleplay?"

I don't see where that lines up with keeping people hoovering up herbs for the longest possible amount of time and making inventory management even more of a time sink.

As a deeply invested crafter myself, rest assured that my very thoughts are on improving the experience, but I resolutely remain convinced that crafting needs to be somewhat arduous and lengthy to master. As stated above, you have suggestions to provide on the matter I'm all hear. But bear in mind too we have to compose with a behemoth of a system that cannot be easily changed.

[Kaninchen]

Weight management is a puzzle folk frequently struggle with. I do ninjalooting stuff, and the conversation of "is it really worth carrying this heavy item?" Oh how many thousands of fangs I've left sitting in chests over my time playing here because the answer is frequently "no, it isn't worth carrying a 45 lbs shield." I 100% agree picking up herbs should be a choice. I primarily play a mundane character, and frequently choose not to pick every herb I see for the same weight management reasons I have with ninjalooting.

I will go out on a limb and say a good amount of high level players also don't pick every herb they see, and instead acquire them by buying boxes of herbs at a time. It's obvsioulsy a decent part of the PC economy. You can say haggling over not buying specific herbs from a lowbie  because the combined weight of unfilled pouches, that haven't had a chance to be stored generates RP, but I don't know if it's necessarily good RP, especially after the nth iteration of it, as I buy herbs from the nth PC. To me, that would get stale, and un-fun after awhile. 

[Kaninchen]

"I fail to see how the current herbalism bags weight prevent to do any of the things you say. People simply ought to invest in strength if they wish to carry everything easily. The real issue is there. Choices and consequences. Live by your built."


I agree with this, but something to keep in mind is people have characters built before some of these changes occurred, perhaps by many years. What was an ideal starting STR score 3 years ago, may not be a valid option anymore with some of the changes, and additions.  Odds of DMs approving remake applications to re-adjust ability scores at level 1 for characters over level 16 doesn't seem likely to combat changes made in the module doesn't seem likely. 

[-Wing]

I actually agree in theory with the idea that your choices have consequences, just not that it's a key factor for this change

The herbalism bags are great inventory management tools, and it would be nice to use them fully.  The current weight just means that for lower quantities, instead of using the inventory tool provided they get stored loosely.  (It's worth having a bag for higher quantities, for lower quantities the weight of the bag exceeds the weight of the herbs too much)

So while it is a strength issue (thus a weight change identified) the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried.  I don't see this as a conversation about philosophical pillars of choice and consequence, simply a minor quality of life / organization detail.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Spoilered because danger of derailing...

Spoiler: show

Slowing down the craft makes things more grindy and contributes to hoarding because it fuels player frustration.

My alternative to grinding (greater crafting XP reward, but with a soft cap) was sadly rejected by the player base (proof that I do listen to you guys). But I am looking out for alternatives if you have any to propose. As it stands, the grinding is a necessary detterent so that not everyone becomes a master quickly.

Your alternative was pulled before we knew what the details of the change would be. We merely expressed concerns that PotM would be made more MMO-like with dailies creeping in. What you have written here is not true and it's unnecessarily damning.

Also, no one is going to leave herbs behind, they'll chug a strength potion and continue hasting around the map.

Thank you for validating my point that it's only a strength issue, and not an herbalism bags weight  one.

It is not only a strength issue. Herbalism might be the "easiest craft" but that doesn't mean it's any less tedious, or that this update making it more tedious was a good idea. If strength alone were the issue we wouldn't be gathering thousands of pounds of meteors, horns, and ores at a time.

The dev's lens should be "How would I want it to work if I played a herbalist? What's efficient for the server, engaging for the player, and pro-roleplay?"

I don't see where that lines up with keeping people hoovering up herbs for the longest possible amount of time and making inventory management even more of a time sink.

As a deeply invested crafter myself, rest assured that my very thoughts are on improving the experience, but I resolutely remain convinced that crafting needs to be somewhat arduous and lengthy to master. As stated above, you have suggestions to provide on the matter I'm all hear. But bear in mind too we have to compose with a behemoth of a system that cannot be easily changed.

We clearly have different definitions of arduous. My suggestions to make crafting more group-based and choice/consequence-based have been rejected in the past on principle alone, and I also found it ironic that some of my suggestions were disapproved of, yet they were implemented anyway. They weren't even necessarily my original ideas, it's just that it's very difficult to have a productive discussion when one side is prone to dropping a zinger in the reply box, then going silent when pressed.

We're not rejecting the principle that it might take a while or be challenging to master even one craft. If you want it that way, that's fine, we're just asking for the tedium to be brought under control a little more.

To stay on track: I'm with -Wing, who is a much more experienced herbalist than both of us, knows the gameplay of the profession, understands the sacrifices you have to make to keep your inventory clean and underweight, and above my post writes, "the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried." To me, that's a pretty clear indicator that it isn't only a strength issue or even primarily one, and that making this change isn't going to buff herbalism, it's just going to make the gameplay a bit less tedious.

[Kiyosa]

I fail to see how the current herbalism bags weight prevent to do any of the things you say. People simply ought to invest in strength if they wish to carry everything easily. The real issue is there. Choices and consequences. Live by your built.

That will only turn people off professions altogether. I'm already forced to forego the ones demanding a higher carry capacity, because I just cannot meet it. If every single crafter out there is required to have high strength, then people will begin rolling no-RP-just-crafting characters (which is already happening), just to have the luxury of overloading them, something I can't imagine being on par with the server's mentality. At the end of the day, the crafting system is supposed to enhance a character's IC life by providing a profession they can eventually master and a realistic way for them to make a living. That whole notion is negated when characters are created with 20 strength for the sole purpose of being able to carry all the raw materials, or when certain professions are barred to certain characters for being unable to do so.

[MAB77]

That will only turn people off professions altogether. I'm already forced to forego the ones demanding a higher carry capacity, because I just cannot meet it. If every single crafter out there is required to have high strength, then people will begin rolling no-RP-just-crafting characters (which is already happening), just to have the luxury of overloading them, something I can't imagine being on par with the server's mentality. At the end of the day, the crafting system is supposed to enhance a character's IC life by providing a profession they can eventually master and a realistic way for them to make a living. That whole notion is negated when characters are created with 20 strength for the sole purpose of being able to carry all the raw materials, or when certain professions are barred to certain characters for being unable to do so.

Common guys. Don't you see how absurd the claim that you need high strength to be an herbalist is? The staggering amount of players practicing herbalism clearly denotes there is no issue at all to be addressed.

You need high strength only to be able to carry ludicrous amount of items on you easily. Something the game already makes extremely easy to do. Even a 10 strength score is more then enough to do very well carrying herbs and be a successful herbalist. I did it often enough to know that it isn't an issue at all. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

For a long time we didn't even had them and people thrived nonetheless. We added the bags to help you manage inventories and make it convenient. They are excellent at what they do for only a tiny weight cost. 20 herbalism bags is just 10 pounds, and behold, you can drop that down further to 4 just by carrying them in a magic bag purchasable through your friendly neighborhood Red Vardo, and even to 0 by storing your bags when they are full and that you do not wish to use them right away. So no... this isn't a quality of life request at all, you already have it all to make your life easy.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Common guys. Don't you see how absurd the claim that you need high strength to be an herbalist is? The staggering amount of players practicing herbalism clearly denotes there is no issue at all to be addressed.

This is a raw participation metric, it doesn't reflect enjoyment or what their strength ratings are, it reflects how many people are doing it. They do it out of necessity, the system does not necessarily need to be tedious.

You need high strength only to be able to carry ludicrous amount of items on you easily. Something the game already makes extremely easy to do. Even a 10 strength score is more then enough to do very well carrying herbs and be a successful herbalist. I did it often enough to know that it isn't an issue at all. Nothing will convince me otherwise.

By saying "did," you verify that your experience took place in the past. Things have changed since you retired your crafter. Players of current herbalist characters have called your card, but you aren't carrying it anymore, and at this point you are no longer addressing their concerns or responding to their claims:

For a long time we didn't even had them and people thrived nonetheless. We added the bags to help you manage inventories and make it convenient. They are excellent at what they do for only a tiny weight cost. 20 herbalism bags is just 10 pounds, and behold, you can drop that down further to 4 just by carrying them in a magic bag purchasable through your friendly neighborhood Red Vardo, and even to 0 by storing your bags when they are full and that you do not wish to use them right away. So no... this isn't a quality of life request at all, you already have it all to make your life easy.

-Wing said this: "the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried" which is a pretty clear indicator to me that this change isn't going to lead to more hoarding or more herbs carried at all, just less tedium in inventory management.

[MAB77]

This is a raw participation metric, it doesn't reflect enjoyment or what their strength ratings are, it reflects how many people are doing it. They do it out of necessity, the system does not necessarily need to be tedious.

By saying "did," you verify that your experience took place in the past. Things have changed since you retired your crafter. Players of current herbalist characters have called your card, but you aren't carrying it anymore, and at this point you are no longer addressing their concerns or responding to their claims:

-Wing said this: "the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried" which is a pretty clear indicator to me that this change isn't going to lead to more hoarding or more herbs carried at all, just less tedium in inventory management.

So your argument is that herbalism bags at .5 lbs are tedious, but at .4 lbs would increase enjoyment of the craft. Duly noted, but I disagree.

Only Borval is shelved, and you do not know all my other characters or accounts. They are simply not merchants and nowhere as flamboyant as Borval, but most practice a craft or two. I also have the vantage point of a dev. I keep tab on happenings in game and confer with crafters on a regular basis. Trust that I am well aware of the state of the situation, but that doesn't mean for a second that I have to agree that there is a problem to address here regarding the weight of the bags.

Hell my whole crafting update was about making it easier for casual crafters and even herbalism profited out of it by having revised DC for potions that make it easier/faster for progression. An approach that I think was far more effective. Now I am quite willing to hear proposals to change the system if it is still not enough to your taste, but making things lighter is not on the table. The fact that the increased amount of herbs increases the weight an herbalist has to carry isn't an issue in my eyes. It's quite alright, desirable even, for players to be faced with challenges and choices to make regarding their builds and inventory. No one is forcing you to carry 40 herbalist bags around (20 pounds), that's on you alone and not a significant issue by any strecth. There are numerous and very easy ways to deal with the situation already.

[SardineTheAncestor]

No, that is not what my argument is. I don't know where you got that from. -Wing posed a different value.

If you confer with crafters on a regular basis and keep tabs on happenings ingame, that doesn't mean that another crafter's question is invalid because it was posed publicly instead of in your private messages.

You still haven't addressed -Wing's posts, and are talking about tangentially related points at best.

Just to be clear by the way, nothing here is on me, or -Wing for that matter. This has not been called a significant issue. The suggestion was offered as a small quality of life change that means less tedious inventory juggling. It will not affect the amount of herbs carried, it's not about strength.

I'm waiting to become more familiar with the new system before posting about it, but I don't think this is the right thread for it anyway.

[zDark Shadowz]

I'm managing ridiculously heavy equipment alongside herbs just fine. Didnt start the game with more than 15 strength. Trained from 1 to 35 before the potion DC update and then from 35 to 68 and my character is still active. This shouldnt be a factor in validating a persons opinion but seems like thats the way this thread was going.

Changing the weight of the misc thin base item reduces it across all misc thin base items. Making a new base item just for herbalist bags corrects this but its not retroactive so people will need to exchange their apparently 200+ herbalist bags weighing them down 100lbs for something else.

If it used the same base item (which is a lot easier to do) and added a 20% of weight reduction it changes the bag from a 5gp value to a 255gp value.

If people are fine with paying 255gp for a lighter herbalist bag maybe just make an item request thread to have this added in.

Here's the statistics and cost picture for you. Be the change you want to see, go post this exact pic for the item request in the appropriate thread. If people want to buy it so much make the request to add it to the vendors. If you dont do this then you really didnt want what you wanted. Maybe it's a Spidersilk Herbalist Bag which makes it lightweight and strong. Maybe it could be added as a tailoring option later on for MAB77. Who knows?



You can still use the claim merchants to convert 280 herbs weighing 32.2lbs total (2.3x14) to 0.0lbs. You can still use 60% and enchanted 80% total weight reduction bags for all your loose herb pouches to make both them and their contents be effectively redundant in weight. You can still put your 280 weightless claimed herbs into a 0.2lb vaasi leather satchel.

If you dont want to learn how to manage weight then submitting a high cost tax on enthusiasm by paying for multiple 255gp herbalist bags is the way to go.

[Kiyosa]

I'm managing ridiculously heavy equipment alongside herbs just fine. Didnt start the game with more than 15 strength.

Now say that again with 9, 10 or 11 strength, because there are such class builds out there.

[zDark Shadowz]

I mean, petty comment retorts are fine in all to undermine the entire context of my post but I explained the logistics, a usable solution, and multiple alternatives. I'm sure 83lbs lets you carry as many 0.0lb items you want. I'm done trying to be constructive.

[Kiyosa]

I mean, petty comment retorts are fine in all to undermine the entire context of my post but I explained the logistics, a usable solution, and multiple alternatives. I'm sure 83lbs lets you carry as many 0.0lb items you want. I'm done trying to be constructive.

No pettiness was intended and I apologize if it came off that way. You do, however, begin your post with 15 strength as your preface, which is why I focused on that aspect alone.