Author Topic: -Item: Herbalist Bags  (Read 2417 times)

zDark Shadowz

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2021, 08:49:05 PM »
and 133lbs carry weight -60lbs lugging a fullplate is equatable to how much lbs the 8 str character has at their disposal.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2021, 09:33:49 PM »
undermine the entire context of my post

I'd like to just point out that -Wing's suggestion was not posted because of the character's strength. I think that in general, on both sides, a little context is missing here.

That said, I like this idea, I'm gonna cross post it. It'd be a good gold sink for convenience's sake, the same as magic bags.
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MAB77

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2021, 08:58:33 AM »

I'd like to just point out that -Wing's suggestion was not posted because of the character's strength. I think that in general, on both sides, a little context is missing here.

That said, I like this idea, I'm gonna cross post it. It'd be a good gold sink for convenience's sake, the same as magic bags.

From the moment one's speak of weight, one's speak of strength. It's the measure determining how much one can carry. It does not need to be mentioned to be a fact. The original post suggested reducing the weight of the bags as a quality of life improvement to help manage inventory, but really it would have no impact on that other than the weight management. The herbalist bags you use would still use the same amount of space in your inventory and you would still have to manage those herbs, sorting and storing those in the exact same way as before. So we're back again at it being a strength issue and nothing else.

The herbalist bags are already the quality of life improvement for herbalists. Combining the use of herbalist bags with containers made it possible to carry up to 287 herbs in a single container instead of the previous 35. At a small 0.5 lbs per bags, the weight is really a very minimal balancing point that is easily addressed simply by using a strength buff, taking a strength increase at level up, using weight reducing containers, or turning them into claims. There is little need nor reason to add even more options on this matter.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2021, 01:40:03 PM »
the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried. I don't see this as a conversation about philosophical pillars of choice and consequence, simply a minor quality of life / organization detail.

Bolded for context
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bestbardna

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2021, 09:56:21 AM »
I play a dedicated herbalist, and I'm actually against reducing the weight of the herbalism bags. This change really only benefits clerics (and maybe paladins), as other heavy armour users typically have a higher strength score due to not having to worry about boosting a casting stat.

Alternatively, they have super high dex scores and don't use heavy armour/shields in order to maximize parry/dex AC bonuses

Inventory management can seem tedious to some players. I personally very much enjoy it. I've played low strength characters and high strength characters, and with both, I've always enjoyed maximizing my utility and minimizing carry weight.

The major problem I see is that players are always stuffed to the brim in terms of carry weight. Most casters can't even run unless they pop a bulls strength. I'm ok with that. You do you. But its not something I do myself on characters I play. My rule of thumb is to keep my carry weight at 2 strength points lower than my actual maximum. Strength drain is real, whether from ghosts that attack you when you go through a transition, to crippling strike rogues ganking you.

The other reason for this is for the sake of my party members. If one of them gets corpsed,  then I can usually save them. Why? Because since my carry weight is kept far lower than my max, I can toss them into a magic bag and run my booty on outta there.

In short, if you choose to keep your strength low to maximize effectiveness elsewhere, then you should have to deal with the consequences of that. Just like we don't have bags of holding, we shouldn't continuously lower the weight of items to satisfy the stat requirements of already very potent characters. Reducing the bags from 0.5 to 0.1 is an 80% reduction on an empty bag, and a 16% reduction on most full bags (assuming the full bag weighs 2.3 to 2.5 lbs).

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2021, 10:17:05 AM »
All of that is well and good but I think it's clear by -Wing's posts that this is not about strength scores or clerics. It's also not about casters not being able to run unless they use bull's strength, and it's definitely not about crippling strike rogues who are so polite as to stop ganking you after the first attack.

An item suggestion has been posted, without developer response we can only wait and see.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 10:39:41 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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bestbardna

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2021, 11:19:31 AM »
Unfortunately, most of those things are connected together, or are the direct result of one another. Reducing the weight of herbalist bags isn't a QoL improvement. Its a way to try and get around weaknesses in a characters build. At least thats my opinion.

In regards to the sneaky rogue not attacking more than once, its a nice cushion to have, as with their medium bab, they may not hit with their other attacks that round. Especially after you turn to engage them and get your dex to ac back.

Better than no cushion, in my opinion.


SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2021, 11:32:51 AM »
Since it isn't about strength, it's not tied to the big picture of balance around the strength stat. It's really just about the inventory juggling and that's all. Personally, I'd sooner solve it by removing magic bags because the consequence of them existing as common items is more far reaching, but I think the message is clear enough that they won't be going anywhere.
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bestbardna

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2021, 11:53:56 AM »
If it wasn't about strength/carry weight, then people would be asking that it be reduced from a 2x1 item to a 1x1 item. The fact that players want to reduce its weight so that it doesn't impact their carry weight as much makes it clearly about strength/carry limit.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2021, 11:58:16 AM »
the consequence of the change is only in how the herbs are going to be managed in my inventory, not in how many will be carried. I don't see this as a conversation about philosophical pillars of choice and consequence, simply a minor quality of life / organization detail.

Bolded for context.
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2021, 12:20:46 PM »
They really arent managed differently beyond weight when you ask only for a weight reduction though, and the only effect is how many you could carry.

Players will fill to weight; weight reduction means you can carry more. The bag & item tile arrangement does not change so the bolded text is invalid in its own context despite being repeated twice.

This thread will be caught on loop if the fact is ignored.

EDIT: An actual thread that related to item location or arrangement rather than item weight would be going more along the lines of this:

In a crude formula, X x Y = Z where X is the quantity of items held, Y is the weight of those items and Z = the total carry capacity of items X weight, describe the relationship between X and Y if Z were fixed at 116lbs,(the carry capacity someone at 14 or buffed to 14 strength would be)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2021, 01:33:48 PM by zDark Shadowz »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2021, 12:28:36 PM »
Well, ignoring it and saying it's not true doesn't make it untrue either. Most of the posts in the thread don't directly respond to the OP or any other posts in it, the feedback loop is coming from somewhere else. If the mods see all this metaposting as off-topic and nonconstructive, they'll end up handling it and we have no need to worry about that, whether or not the developers are interested in following up on the suggestions made.
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Quartermaster

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2021, 12:41:46 PM »
So I play a herbist. My pc has a low strength, and during spring and fall seasons I often have to cast bulls to be able to run. Even if the weight of bags decreased, Nothing would change. I will still gather as many herbs as possible. All a suggested change would do, is make traveling to Port each day to store the full bags maybe every other day.

Personally, I'd rather see the sack hold 100 herbs. That way rather than storing 5 full sacks at the bank, it would just be 1. Instead of having the 28 different herb bags my pc is currently gathering, and the 60 stored bags of herbs to brew later, it would be the 28 active bags, and 5-10 stored bags. I assume that players logging in with full inventories tends to add to lag. I believe this would help alleviate that.

 

bestbardna

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2021, 01:10:04 PM »
So I play a herbist. My pc has a low strength, and during spring and fall seasons I often have to cast bulls to be able to run. Even if the weight of bags decreased, Nothing would change. I will still gather as many herbs as possible. All a suggested change would do, is make traveling to Port each day to store the full bags maybe every other day.

Personally, I'd rather see the sack hold 100 herbs. That way rather than storing 5 full sacks at the bank, it would just be 1. Instead of having the 28 different herb bags my pc is currently gathering, and the 60 stored bags of herbs to brew later, it would be the 28 active bags, and 5-10 stored bags. I assume that players logging in with full inventories tends to add to lag. I believe this would help alleviate that.

 

I really like this idea. I'd be completely fine with a 2.5 lb empty bag that could carry 100 herbs. Instead of having 10 bags of beggars cup in my inventory, I could have 2.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: -Item: Herbalist Bags
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2021, 01:15:07 PM »
I'm with it as well, even if it's just a new option. I don't believe the current system prevents hoarding, or dissuades people from doing things the devs don't want them to do, so giving them more options to store things the way they want rather than do it the old fashioned way can only be a good thing imo.
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