[Disguise Skill Change] Disguise as a Class Skill/Disguise versus Search

[Dardonas]

Disguise is a unique skill that is currently underutilized due to a lack of gear and a lack of classes that can invest in it.  I personally think the concept of a stealth ability that more so literally hides in plain sight is far more interesting than whether you meet a passive stealth/spot check.

Spot currently is very powerful as a skill, as in comparison to other skills, Spot counters two different skills: Disguise and Hide.  I won't get into the Stealth versus Spot debate in this thread, and try to stick to Spot versus Disguise.  While I recognize that we try to stick to PnP when possible, I think that Spot is balanced (both in terms of gear, feats, and availability as a class skill) towards countering Hide as a skill and just overkill when it comes to Disguise.  I don't mean to turn this into a request for Disguise gear as I'm sure the Developers have a lot on their plate with the other changes being made to the Hak pack, but there is a gear discrepancy for Disguise that makes it that much easier for even undedicated spotters to see through disguises.

I'd like to propose three changes: firstly, I think that Search as a counter to Disguise would alleviate some of the issues Disguise faces as a skill.  Namely, it makes it so that Spot isn't as powerful as it already is in countering two skills.  It also gives more reason to invest points into Search.  I feel as if it also makes more sense, headcannon-wise, to search someone to see if they are disguised rather than having x-ray eyes that can penetrate a helmet/mask and a different outfit as well as likely use of the Disguise Self spell (which I believe technically requires another check to discern in PnP regardless). 

Secondly, I'd suggest that other classes get access to Disguise as a skill.  As of now, I believe the only base classes that get access to Disguise as a skill are Rogue and Bard.  The skill is predominantly had by PrCs: Assassin, People's Champion, Shadowdancer and Shifter (I could be mistaken if I'm missing one).  Two of those, Assassin and Shifter, likely don't have the skill points to invest in these skills.  People's Champion is also incredibly rare, and I feel like a build for one would likely not have the points to access disguise to any meaningful level.  Sorcerers and Wizards, for instance, typically have more skill points than they have actual class skills.  My suggestions would be that a couple of other classes can get access to Disguise: Sorcerer, possibly Wizard, and Druid get access to Disguise as a class skill. 

Thirdly, to put Disguise on par with something like Hide, Spot and Search, I'd suggest possibly some additional feats that would be equivalent to Stealthy or Alertness (minor +2 or +3 to Disguise checks).

[zDark Shadowz]

A low DC disguise buy in to roleplay is more fun than a high DC hide at least (cant interact with what you can't see) and the latter can still be resorted to tò escape.

It has the spells, synergy and polymorph bonus mechanics, it just needs items, and the item request/discussion threads for new disguise items are always open.

[APorg]

It doesn't make sense conceptually, Search is about investigating rooms and places.

Spot is powerful, yes, but top level Spot gear is some of the rarest and most sought in the game; Canes of Detection go for several hundred thousand gp at auctions. I don't agree with the premise that it's unfair for Spot to counter two Skills: not if the loot tables have been balanced in such a way as to make the best gear ultra rare. (If Spot is deemed too powerful then making certain items rarer or removing them from the loot tables altogether is also a solution.)

The answer really is to provide Disguise with more bonuses, especially gear.

[Dardonas]

It doesn't make sense conceptually, Search is about investigating rooms and places.

Spot is powerful, yes, but top level Spot gear is some of the rarest and most sought in the game; Canes of Detection go for several hundred thousand gp at auctions. I don't agree with the premise that it's unfair for Spot to counter two Skills: not if the loot tables have been balanced in such a way as to make the best gear ultra rare. (If Spot is deemed too powerful then making certain items rarer or removing them from the loot tables altogether is also a solution.)

The answer really is to provide Disguise with more bonuses, especially gear.

I disagree, Search is about discovering hidden discrepancies such as secret doors.  And, investigating a person's outfit and mannerisms be on point with that.  Breaking a disguise is more of a deductive thing, I'd reason, and not more of a wisdom-based/instinctual thing.

I don't think that just because Spot has to be utilized to its full potential by expensive gear it should be powerful enough to just negate two skills.  That's just my philosophy on it, however, I don't have any reasoning besides opinion.

However, your third point is spot on (no pun intended).  There should be more bonuses, like being able to pump up disguise as a full class skill for more classes.  More disguise feats, and, it goes without saying, more items.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I think Search would actually be kinda appropriate on PotM since it's the go-to skill that guards use when they're looking for contraband on players.

[Khornite]

I'd like to propose three changes: firstly, I think that Search as a counter to Disguise would alleviate some of the issues Disguise faces as a skill.  Namely, it makes it so that Spot isn't as powerful as it already is in countering two skills.  It also gives more reason to invest points into Search.  I feel as if it also makes more sense, headcannon-wise, to search someone to see if they are disguised rather than having x-ray eyes that can penetrate a helmet/mask and a different outfit as well as likely use of the Disguise Self spell (which I believe technically requires another check to discern in PnP regardless). 

I am 200% down for this change. When you're trying to break a disguise, it's a lot about watching how the person handles themselves, but also looking for the flaws in the makeup, the prosthetics, etc. Looking for a seam in a costume is much more in line with search than it is spot. Search and spot have always been weird in their implementation and I've always felt that they should have been combined into one visual perception score alongside listen, the audio perception skill, instead of being two distinct skills for HOW YOUR EYES WORK. 

It doesn't make sense conceptually, Search is about investigating rooms and places.

Not entirely true, it's about the manner of searching, not the thing being searched. Say for example a DM was running an autopsy. There would be many heal checks involved, but spotting the little poisonous seeds in the victim's stomach? That'd be well within the realm of Search. Spot is more general, search is more targeted.

[APorg]

I disagree, Search is about discovering hidden discrepancies such as secret doors.  And, investigating a person's outfit and mannerisms be on point with that.  Breaking a disguise is more of a deductive thing, I'd reason, and not more of a wisdom-based/instinctual thing.

Spot countering Disguise isn't a PotM thing, it's a DnD 3.x thing. Search as implemented in DnD is essentially a forensic skill. Spot is the guard who notices the shifty person sneaking past the city gates. Search is the investigator finding a clue in a murder scene.

It's not nonsensical to point out that these things are closely related, and indeed in Pathfinder both were collapsed into Perception. But it is a conceptual redefinition.

[mccarthy00]

The change to Search would be nice, Honestly theirs no disguise i cant break right now and i only use the most basic spot gear.

Alternately it could be changed to use only half your spot score.

[Swan]

Eh. I can see arguments for either or, but honestly, I think Spot is still more suited to the role of being the opposed to Disguise.

Spot signifies how keen someone's ability to detect when something is off about people specifically- whether that be them trying to hide, or otherwise.
Search is generally the same, but in regards to your surroundings- hidden doors, concealed objects, and the like, which involves getting VERY up close and personal with whatever you're scrutinizing. And the only time those checks ever involve people is when you're trying to find something on them. So the focus is an object, not the person themselves.

I'm not opposed to changing the opposed skill to Search, but if we do, then uhh... we're going to have to find a way to greatly reduce the distance at which you're allowed to make checks to break disguises. Because a Search check from afar does not make any sense, in the slightest.

Somewhat related I guess, but I really, really think that Spot and Listen just need to be condensed into one skill- Perception. Because seeing through someone's attempt to disguise themselves involves more than looking past a physical disguise and their mannerisms, but also their voice.

[APorg]

God, I'd love to see PotM skills collapsed into Pathfinder Skills.

[Swan]

God, I'd love to see PotM skills collapsed into Pathfinder Skills.

Give us Perception and Insight or give us death.

[herkles]

God, I'd love to see PotM skills collapsed into Pathfinder Skills.

Just as a refresher how did Pathfinder modify the skills?

[Swan]

God, I'd love to see PotM skills collapsed into Pathfinder Skills.

Just as a refresher how did Pathfinder modify the skills?

It condensed them. For example, instead of having two separate skills for Spot and Listen- both of which are used for the exact same purpose, which is detecting hidden creatures- they condensed them into one skill, which is Perception. They did the same with Move Silently and Hide, and condensed them into Stealth. It just makes things a lot less convoluted.

[APorg]

Search, too, got wrapped into Perception.

[Swan]

Search, too, got wrapped into Perception.

I completely forgot about that. That also makes a great deal of sense.

[inkcorvid]

That's is also similar what 5e did:



At the cost of stuff like Perception being a god-skill and Religion being the nichest of the niche.

[MAB77]

I think an important aspect that is often neglected in that ancient debate is "how many players are really able to detect someone with an average investment in spot/disguise?" And the answer is "Not many". Not that many classes have spot as a class skill to begin with, fewer with enough skill points to make it worthwile It requires dedication and heavy feat investments to be a good spotter. Should a players decide to do so, he'll sacrifice plenty of other skills and features that might have made him stronger or richer in the long run.

Even if a limited few people can unfailingly spot you, it's not like they'll be on your tail 24/7, there are plenty of other occasions where the hide/disguise skill investment will do just fine. Beside on a roleplay server, where's the fun in never being discovered anyway?

[PrimetheGrime]

It doesn't make sense conceptually, Search is about investigating rooms and places.

Spot is powerful, yes, but top level Spot gear is some of the rarest and most sought in the game; Canes of Detection go for several hundred thousand gp at auctions. I don't agree with the premise that it's unfair for Spot to counter two Skills: not if the loot tables have been balanced in such a way as to make the best gear ultra rare. (If Spot is deemed too powerful then making certain items rarer or removing them from the loot tables altogether is also a solution.)

The answer really is to provide Disguise with more bonuses, especially gear.

I very much agree with this. It would give search some more functions and work well with people not just building ultimate spotters of stealthers, but investigators and law enforcement who arguably would make more use of the skill to pierce disguises.
I disagree, Search is about discovering hidden discrepancies such as secret doors.  And, investigating a person's outfit and mannerisms be on point with that.  Breaking a disguise is more of a deductive thing, I'd reason, and not more of a wisdom-based/instinctual thing.

I don't think that just because Spot has to be utilized to its full potential by expensive gear it should be powerful enough to just negate two skills.  That's just my philosophy on it, however, I don't have any reasoning besides opinion.

However, your third point is spot on (no pun intended).  There should be more bonuses, like being able to pump up disguise as a full class skill for more classes.  More disguise feats, and, it goes without saying, more items.

[Dardonas]

I think an important aspect that is often neglected in that ancient debate is "how many players are really able to detect someone with an average investment in spot/disguise?" And the answer is "Not many". Not that many classes have spot as a class skill to begin with, fewer with enough skill points to make it worthwile It requires dedication and heavy feat investments to be a good spotter. Should a players decide to do so, he'll sacrifice plenty of other skills and features that might have made him stronger or richer in the long run.

Even if a limited few people can unfailingly spot you, it's not like they'll be on your tail 24/7, there are plenty of other occasions where the hide/disguise skill investment will do just fine. Beside on a roleplay server, where's the fun in never being discovered anyway?

I don't see anything wrong with having a person be a master of disguise.  In comparison to stealth and hide, it's much more engaging as you're still able to roleplay while incognito in a disguise.  That said, I can turn the inverse around and ask if it's fun that certain builds and classes can just spot and see through every attempted disguise? 

I will say that the one big discrepancy in my argument is that we actually don't really know how a max disguise build would look like as it's impossible to achieve the +50 bonus to disguise unless someone got really lucky with DM items or permanent buffs like Dark Powers.  On your point that people with an average amount of investment into disguise, I routinely see through people's disguises with my characters that have non-spot based builds.  You'd currently need an investment of +20 points (whether from skill, modifier, feat, or the rare item) to safely disguise from the average person without any Spot.  With the lack of base class access to spot, that means cross classing for anyone not a bard or rogue (or one of the other PrCs) at least 20 points to achieve that +20 with the Disguise Self spell (UMD or cast otherwise).

[EO]

Rather than overhaul the system, the simplest solution is for people to come up with Disguise gear we can add to the treasuries. Last I checked, there were almost no suggestions for Disguise gear on the Item Request Thread.

[Dardonas]

Rather than overhaul the system, the simplest solution is for people to come up with Disguise gear we can add to the treasuries. Last I checked, there were almost no suggestions for Disguise gear on the Item Request Thread.

Likely so.  I could have sworn I saw a ton of disguise items at one point but I must have not given it a closer look.  I posted a few myself recently, though I still think that it's worth considering adding Disguise as a base skill to Sorcerers (especially in the context of PotM as they are likely to keep themselves hidden from the public).  If I recall their skill list, they don't get access to Influence as a 3e skill or a base NwN skill, and we've added it.  I could easily see Disguise being thematically a good fit for the class.

[mccarthy00]

Rather than overhaul the system, the simplest solution is for people to come up with Disguise gear we can add to the treasuries. Last I checked, there were almost no suggestions for Disguise gear on the Item Request Thread.

Likely so.  I could have sworn I saw a ton of disguise items at one point but I must have not given it a closer look.  I posted a few myself recently, though I still think that it's worth considering adding Disguise as a base skill to Sorcerers (especially in the context of PotM as they are likely to keep themselves hidden from the public).  If I recall their skill list, they don't get access to Influence as a 3e skill or a base NwN skill, and we've added it.  I could easily see Disguise being thematically a good fit for the class.

Honestly i think every class should have the skill, its more of a life skill than a Class skill

[Dardonas]

Honestly i think every class should have the skill, its more of a life skill than a Class skill

I'd be okay with this as well.

[Inti]

Honestly i think every class should have the skill, its more of a life skill than a Class skill

Yes, you will still have to invest skill points into it you would not invest elsewhere as a result.


How about - creating a Feat that 'unlocks' the Disguise as a class skill for any class? Just not to make things too easy.

[Delita]

How about - creating a Feat that 'unlocks' the Disguise as a class skill for any class? Just not to make things too easy.

I don't think creating such a feat possible due the engine limitations. I remember asking a dev about creating a feat that makes the skill of your choice class skill to you.

I also agree that disguise should be class skill for everyone. It won't break the game after all.