Author Topic: Good Domain is Actually Evil  (Read 2245 times)

HouseOfLament

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Good Domain is Actually Evil
« on: February 17, 2021, 08:53:04 AM »
The Good Domain allows a cleric to cast Lesser Planer Binding which will permanently steal a Lantern Archon away from the realm of the gods and doom them to eternal existence in the Hollow.  This is actually quite inadvertently evil to the extent that Dread ran with it in a recent scene and with an unexpected followup.  These events lead to some of the most intense cleric RP I've personally experienced on the server.

In light of this, I strongly feel it's best to remove Lesser Planar Binding from the Good domain and replace it with something else.
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Myrza

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2021, 09:04:19 AM »
I think people are making too big of a deal out of it, Lantern Archons are rather simple minded and don't have much to do anyway. They exist to serve good deities or clerics and that's mostly what they are capable and would want to do anyway. So helping a good aligned cleric within the mists is not much different then doing such in the Material Plane if you ask me. It's not like they are missing their families or anything.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 09:05:58 AM by Myrza »

mccarthy00

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2021, 09:08:59 AM »
the Domains effects are fine, where it would be seen as a evil act to trap something within the mists the DP who supply the power to the clerics most likely don't really care and provide the power hoping to corrupt the good clerics who don't know better, For those who do, just don't use the spell

JustMonika

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 09:11:18 AM »
I think people are making too big of a deal out of it, Lantern Archons are rather simple minded and don't have much to do anyway. They exist to serve good deities or clerics and that's mostly what they are capable and would want to do anyway. So helping a good aligned cleric within the mists is not much different then doing such in the Material Plane if you ask me. It's not like they are missing their families or anything.

I believe this Lantern Archon did specifically state it was missing all its friends, as it happens...

mccarthy00

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 09:13:57 AM »
Forgot to add, theres also the secondery effect of lesser planar binding that is.

paralyzing a single outsider, or summoning a planar ally. Targeted outsiders are paralyzed for 1 round per 2 caster levels.

Could be used to combat evil outsiders.

Myrza

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2021, 09:15:04 AM »
I believe this Lantern Archon did specifically state it was missing all its friends, as it happens...
Well maybe it does, but at the end their duty is to help people and if they are doing that in the Mists, I just don't see much of a problem.

JustMonika

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 09:24:37 AM »
I believe this Lantern Archon did specifically state it was missing all its friends, as it happens...
Well maybe it does, but at the end their duty is to help people and if they are doing that in the Mists, I just don't see much of a problem.

Isn't that the very defination of 'Lawful Evil'?

'I don't care how you feel about it or what the personal concequences are as long as you do what I expect'

Myrza

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 09:33:24 AM »
I believe this Lantern Archon did specifically state it was missing all its friends, as it happens...
Well maybe it does, but at the end their duty is to help people and if they are doing that in the Mists, I just don't see much of a problem.

Isn't that the very defination of 'Lawful Evil'?

'I don't care how you feel about it or what the personal concequences are as long as you do what I expect'

Yeah but my point here is that Archons in general are not very complicated, and they only exist to help people and do good. It's not like you are forcing them to do something they don't want to. They would want to help you still. Planar Binding is not simple act even if done in the Material Plane and wouldn't be done if not in the most dire circumstances. If a good aligned cleric needs assistance of a Planar Being, I don't see a reason that they shouldn't get it though, just because they are in the land of Mists. Lantern Archons are plentiful, and they exist to help the good. In their spare time, they float around the Celestial Plane and look for anyone that needs help.

mccarthy00

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 09:39:22 AM »
I believe this Lantern Archon did specifically state it was missing all its friends, as it happens...
Well maybe it does, but at the end their duty is to help people and if they are doing that in the Mists, I just don't see much of a problem.

Isn't that the very defination of 'Lawful Evil'?

'I don't care how you feel about it or what the personal concequences are as long as you do what I expect'

Yeah but my point here is that Archons in general are not very complicated, and they only exist to help people and do good. It's not like you are forcing them to do something they don't want to. They would want to help you still. Planar Binding is not simple act even if done in the Material Plane and wouldn't be done if not in the most dire circumstances. If a good aligned cleric needs assistance of a Planar Being, I don't see a reason that they shouldn't get it though, just because they are in the land of Mists. Lantern Archons are plentiful, and they exist to help the good. In their spare time, they float around the Celestial Plane and look for anyone that needs help.

Knowing there very nature would not allow them to refuse yet still summoning to the mists is a very non-good act regardless of how you look at it imo, You can justify it a few ways but at the end of the day your trapping something that does not really have the power to say no. The spell planner ally however seems a bit different as it seems that the summon agrees to come.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 09:40:37 AM »
Most characters shouldn't be certain that's what is actually occurring. Blissful ignorance of consequences can lead to great roleplay as you saw.

I think it's better that good-aligned characters are open to actions such as these. If you weren't allowed, Dread never would have been able to hit you with the feels lantern, and that intense roleplay you had never would have occurred.
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firelord111

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 10:54:32 AM »
Keep in mind the summoning is depending on the situation this conversation can be had about saying that all summon spells are evil it is intent behind the spell that matters not the outcome of it. if shifting realm of mists towards good meant summoning a whole good plane of existance i would do it on my good aligned char for my good aligned char i would do it.

JustMonika

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2021, 10:57:18 AM »
Keep in mind the summoning is depending on the situation this conversation can be had about saying that all summon spells are evil it is intent behind the spell that matters not the outcome of it. if shifting realm of mists towards good meant summoning a whole good plane of existance i would do it on my good aligned char for my good aligned char i would do it.


I thought 'The ends justify the means' was an evil alignment point of view?

firelord111

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 11:10:27 AM »
Keep in mind the summoning is depending on the situation this conversation can be had about saying that all summon spells are evil it is intent behind the spell that matters not the outcome of it. if shifting realm of mists towards good meant summoning a whole good plane of existance i would do it on my good aligned char for my good aligned char i would do it.


I thought 'The ends justify the means' was an evil alignment point of view?
usually the ends are evil for evil alignment or selfish
if a character is able to help others but does not use the power to help that is also an evil action
What i mean is that the action of summoning is a neutral action because the character is doing it out of consideration and the results are good aligned so i would say it leans towards good
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 11:15:36 AM by firelord111 »

Glass Cannon

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 11:45:47 AM »
If I recall correctly, the Ravenloft player's guide book says that bringing fiends into the demiplane is worthy of a DP check, but not summoning celestial?
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inkcorvid

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2021, 01:50:53 PM »
Hello, I brought a Lantern Archon into Ravenloft and it was a horrifying experience.



If I recall correctly, the Ravenloft player's guide book says that bringing fiends into the demiplane is worthy of a DP check, but not summoning celestial?

Indeed:

Quote from: PHB
Using a calling spell to conjure an evil creature requires a powers check.

But calling any creature is a betrayal of that creature:

Quote from: PHB
When the called creature attempts to leave Ravenloft after completing its task and discovers it cannot, the pact is broken. You lose all control over the creature, which is likely to feel betrayed.

A called creature's behavior once a broken pact frees it from your control depends on the creature's alignment. Evil or neutral creratures might try to destroy you in retaliation.

Lantern Archons are usually more polite about it. But the Lantern Archon Incident mentioned above, about which I'm writing an IC essay, saw a Lantern Archon become corrupted after being separated from its home and friends. Which probably even counts as:

Quote from: PHB
Defilement is the act of causing a sacred place, object or person to lose its holy blessings.

An Unholy act usually worthy of a Powers Check.

As for who knows this?

Quote from: PHB
Spellcasters native to Ravenloft have learned most of the limitations of magic through generations of research. Folklore is likewise filled with warnings against the risks of tampering with the laws of nature, though these superstitions often exaggerate or distort the truth. If a spell effect - such as detecting moral alignment - simply does not function in Ravenloft, most spellcasters believe that the effect is inherently impossible. They may even scoff openly at the thought that such things may be possible in other lands.

From the 2e Campaign Setting:

Quote
Summoning creatures from outside Ravenloft is possible. the subjects of these spells are likely to be very unhappy when they learn that they must find their own ways back to their places of origin. Non-evil beings will expect a very good explaination at the least, and evil creatures are likely to attack the priest if given the chance.

I'm with HouseOfLament here. Actually casting that spell is almost always an act of (pretty horrific) evil: you're defiling an angel, either trapping it permanently or summoning it to watch it die. I'm less sold that it should be stricken from the list, both for congruity with the Good Domain outside of Ravenloft, and also to underline the moral dilemma here: the Dark Powers are leaving an option on the table for a Good character to do Evil, for convenience sake. Use it in front of a DM at your peril, but also: consider that if you're using it to grind dungeons, your character is kind of a monster for doing so.

f a character is able to help others but does not use the power to help that is also an evil action

Ravenloft (ie. the Dark Powers) often doesn't see things that way. Sure, it might also be convenient to Gutwrench your less experienced dungeon companions so as to more efficiently be able to cleanse the evil from this pile of treasure den of wickedness, but Ravenloft puts a lot of stock in dentological over consequentialist morality. That's why the consequentialist Halans are TN, not NG. And why casting necromancy spells is always an evil act in Ravenloft, even for "good" reasons.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2021, 02:10:42 PM »
I don't think removing it is conducive to good roleplay. It should be left there for people who don't know to metagame the fact that it's evil. The chances of it leading to a positive IC situation are higher than someone using it to threaten immersion in a malevolent manner.

Ravenloft isn't supposed to be about training wheels. This is a perfect example of one of those unsuspecting accidents and the resulting tragic irony of it all. Every single time it comes up someone has a good time. Why take that experience away from those in the future?
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JustMonika

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2021, 02:13:29 PM »
To clarify my position, I'm not advocating it's removal, just affirming I feel it's an evil act.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2021, 02:21:32 PM »
I believe whether or not it's always considered an act of irrevocable, inexcusable evil is left to the IC circumstance. There's reckless, there's selfish, there's inconsiderate of others & absorbed in one's own convenience -- and then there's plain not knowing. This can all be expanded upon IC with a willing DM.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2021, 02:48:47 PM »
Agreed that this is probably an evil act, disagree that it should be removed. I'd view it as an unhappy quirk of the domains, kinda like how Paladin detect evil doesn't actually detect evil and, consequentially, could lead to some serious misfortune.
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CorruptiveAries

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2021, 02:56:46 PM »
The thing you also have to remember is that Outlander characters don't know that outsiders they summon will be trapped in the Mists and unable to return to their plane which that in itself is something that can and should be expanded upon through RP. Native characters however are aware of this which is why many are hesitant to summon something that can be trapped there (for good or evil purposes).

As a side note, planar ally is a little different than planar binding. Planar Ally is basically the cleric asking their deity to send them a servant to aid them in their fight (whether it be for good or evil). The deity may or may not be aware that the servant they send will be unable to return, and the servant may or may not be aware either but they are sent on behest of the deity to aid the cleric. All of which can be done through RP however and up to a DM on if they want to have, especially a Celestial sad they can't return home. But on the other hand there is plenty of evil for them to fight.

Course if the character doesn't serve a particular deity, a creature corresponding to that characters alignment will answer but the point of the spell is that they consent and agree to help the Cleric.

Planar Binding however is a little different in that you have to specifically call and trap a being and compel it to serve you. Which once that agreement is over, especially if its a fiend can lead to some horror knowing that your servant you thought was temporary is in fact here to stay.

Removing it ruins the RP aspect as others have said. Part of the joy of the RP is Outlanders learning about the effects of magic on the land. Now if they realized that when they summon a celestial and it is doomed to be trapped there until destroyed and continues casting it that in itself could be seen as evil. But removing it on the basis of one bad experience ruins the many RP avenues that it can happen to the shock and dismay and puts that cleric in a moral dilemma on if it's right or not and ruins the learning opportunity for them.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 03:07:19 PM by CorruptiveAries »
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herkles

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2021, 03:07:15 PM »
The thing you also have to remember is that Outlander characters don't know that outsiders they summon will be trapped in the Mists and unable to return to their plane which that in itself is something that can and should be expanded upon through RP. Native characters however are aware of this which is why many are hesitant to summon something that can be trapped there (for good or evil purposes).

As a side note, planar ally is a little different than planar binding. Planar Ally is basically the cleric asking their deity to send them a servant to aid them in their fight (whether it be for good or evil). The deity may or may not be aware that the servant they send will be unable to return, and the servant may or may not be aware either but they are sent on behest of the deity to aid the cleric. All of which can be done through RP however and up to a DM on if they want to have, especially a Celestial sad they can't return home. But on the other hand there is plenty of evil for them to fight.

Course if the character doesn't serve a particular deity, a creature corresponding to that characters alignment will answer but the point of the spell is that they consent and agree to help the Cleric.

Planar Binding however is a little different in that you have to specifically call and trap a being and compel it to serve you. Which once that agreement is over, especially if its a fiend can lead to some horror knowing that your servant you thought was temporary is in fact here to stay.

This is making me wonder: what beings do ezrites get with planar ally and other native religions?


CorruptiveAries

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2021, 03:23:06 PM »
I think it would depend honestly on how a DM wants to interpret it. Usually deities have particular creatures that show a mark of their favor or as messengers but at least the material I have access to doesn't really say much for the native religions in regards to Outsiders they may send. (Course it can also be that most Ravenloft games are low magic and low level so summoning outsiders is often out of the range of most characters in a traditional game)

Personally for me I am of the mindset that because the deities of the native religions are often distant and quiet that the outsiders that answer a cleric are just ones that correspond with their alignment or creatures that typically have the Mists descriptor to them. But thats my take on it based on the material I've read, but DMs of course have that liberty to choose what would answer or not answer.
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HouseOfLament

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2021, 03:43:09 PM »
Two quick things to clarify based on previous responses:

I wasn't the summoner  :D

Allowing good characters to accidentally do evil things and fall despite their best intentions is most certainly aligned with Ravenloft's central themes however I feel it is best that this be done via roleplay (decisions, attachments to institutions, etc) instead of mechanically at all possible times; a player selecting this domain (especially a player who is not super familiar with the foibles of this setting) should be free to make a "good guy" and play a "good guy" to the best of their ability without this hella scale gotcha. 

Thank so much for reading / considering, all disagreement is obv fine (and encouraged for the sake of the community)
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2021, 03:52:55 PM »
Outlander characters don't know that outsiders they summon will be trapped in the Mists

Honestly, neither will natives.

This is one of those things you shouldn't really just RP knowing about. Level 2s aren't exposed to this kind of lore before they first spawn ingame, and the level required to cast this spell doesn't automatically confer that knowledge either.

Things work differently on this PW than in the tabletop -- for example, the all necromancy is an evil act thing -- and likewise, just because you use this spell, you don't get a free pass to know everything it does. There's been specific elaboration upon this especially regarding arcane familiars: they're not an excuse to cheese knowledge into play that spoils stuff like this. It's much healthier for the overall atmosphere to play dumb about this sort of thing and let it run its course.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Good Domain is Actually Evil
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2021, 03:54:57 PM »
Quote
Honestly, neither will natives.

Yep. Unless you're powerful enough to have the means to attempt to leave the demiplane on your own, you're probably not going to be very aware of the rules of it.
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