Heal Potions & Vampire Hearts

[Khornite]

Please remember to be excellent to each others.

Couldn't resist.

For real though, in regards to the hearts for heal potions thing. Why not invent a new enemy that kind of wanders the mists, something fairly rare and not native to one specific area like the mist dragon or the ethereal illithid. Let's say about on the same rarity of Nightwalkers. You kill that monster and it drops some token or item or something. That token can be traded to the vistani for heal potions.

[PrimetheGrime]

Please remember to be excellent to each others.

Couldn't resist.

For real though, in regards to the hearts for heal potions thing. Why not invent a new enemy that kind of wanders the mists, something fairly rare and not native to one specific area like the mist dragon or the ethereal illithid. Let's say about on the same rarity of Nightwalkers. You kill that monster and it drops some token or item or something. That token can be traded to the vistani for heal potions.

Now see, there's an Idea I can get behind. The mists would be the perfect place for something like this.

[SardineTheAncestor]

In general I wish there was more crafting-based loot in high level areas. Even if it was luck-based like the mists. If crafting was more luck-based and progressed more quickly, it would be more entertaining than grinding for time and optimising routes in areas way below your level since there's no alternative sometimes.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

In general I wish there was more crafting-based loot in high level areas. Even if it was luck-based like the mists. If crafting was more luck-based and progressed more quickly, it would be more entertaining than grinding for time and optimising routes in areas way below your level since there's no alternative sometimes.

I’ve seen a lot of players make this argument over the years, but personally I don’t get it. I’ve never had any trouble finding level appropriate dungeons/areas for acquiring the crafting resources needed to further my crafts. Including: Herbalism, Alchemy, Smithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting and Woodworking. I suppose Gilding may be a bit more restrictive but even then there are some options for avoiding low-level areas. I think more often than not, players don’t realize how expansive the server’s crafting options are, or they aren’t willing to roleplay needing help in their crafts from other players. At least that’s been my experience.

That said, I love the idea of a random spawn in Mists that drops some token for Heal Potions. I would say it either needs to be a very difficult monster to kill, or the exchange would need to be 3 tokens to 1 heal potion.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I’ve seen a lot of players make this argument over the years, but personally I don’t get it. I’ve never had any trouble finding level appropriate dungeons/areas for acquiring the crafting resources needed to further my crafts. Including: Herbalism, Alchemy, Smithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting and Woodworking. I suppose Gilding may be a bit more restrictive but even then there are some options for avoiding low-level areas. I think more often than not, players don’t realize how expansive the server’s crafting options are, or they aren’t willing to roleplay needing help in their crafts from other players. At least that’s been my experience.

Have you polled many players who are unwilling to team up with others that make use of crafts? My own woodworker has been working with alchemists and smiths since the beginning. It's great fun to start crafting at a low level, with a team of others helping you as you help them to make the combined products, but once you get to a certain level, things change.

Let's say you hit level 14 or go beyond. Your only source of palm trees is a place where most of the enemies are in the level 6 range. Your only sources of steel have enemies that level 8s can easily kill with a group. Most of your herb gathering will be done in areas where low levels would also like to be picking herbs, since most of the server is designed for low levels, because at around level 8-10, few ambient threats can challenge you.

Sure, troll leather, adamantine, and devil/demon horns are in areas where level 14+ characters often are, but not all gear is made out of these. And finding one rare herb in Perfidus every 4-5 times you visit isn't the reason you visit, it's just a nice find.

Enchanting doesn't come into this discussion, it's a high level thing as it is. It's not in a terrible place but you should bear in mind that the Temple of Anubis is farmed repeatedly by parties far higher level than should be there for this purpose.

The recent update doesn't change that. Half of the heal potion's herbs can be found near, and will continue to be sourced from, Vallaki. And no alchemist without a death wish will be going to Ghastria or Sithicus, two of the most dangerous domains, in search of mid-tier alchemical reagents. They will be a bonus, especially in Ghastria where loot is commonly the same as the Vallaki outskirts temple crypts.

You would need more tiers of varnishes for this to change without making it too easy to get utter dark residues -- and I don't expect they will change that. You would need more tiers of spawns in the world, more tiers of crafting product, etc. -- and I don't expect they will change that either. It is easier for them and us to just not think about it. So, speaking of the "more often than not" situation, players plainly don't care to become a smith, herbalist, or tailor, not for not realising where to go or what to do, but because they know how many hours they must invest in something that will find them clicking away at a crafting table, and they know that they will eventually reach a higher level just from investing that amount of time into the character, usually on enemies that stopped granting them experience several levels ago with or without a party. That's time they could have spent roleplaying and hitting dungeons appropriate for their level in the meantime.

Those people who do invest all that time are perfectly willing to buy ingredients from lower levels. Every herbalist I've encountered will buy herbs, and at least on my woodworker I buy horns even though I could just go farm them myself. It saves time, but it doesn't patch the issue even if it promotes player-driven economy. And you definitely don't have some regular thing where parties of level 8s go to clear out Dvergeheim and bank the ore until they can find someone who will buy it. It's not the unwillingness of the smiths to have more ore, it's the fact people tend to naturally grow out of a dungeon after doing it once or twice, let alone making it a regular thing for the sake of selling to another crafter.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I’ve seen a lot of players make this argument over the years, but personally I don’t get it. I’ve never had any trouble finding level appropriate dungeons/areas for acquiring the crafting resources needed to further my crafts. Including: Herbalism, Alchemy, Smithing, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Enchanting and Woodworking. I suppose Gilding may be a bit more restrictive but even then there are some options for avoiding low-level areas. I think more often than not, players don’t realize how expansive the server’s crafting options are, or they aren’t willing to roleplay needing help in their crafts from other players. At least that’s been my experience.

Have you polled many players who are unwilling to team up with others that make use of crafts? My own woodworker has been working with alchemists and smiths since the beginning. It's great fun to start crafting at a low level, with a team of others helping you as you help them to make the combined products, but once you get to a certain level, things change.

Let's say you hit level 14 or go beyond. Your only source of palm trees is a place where most of the enemies are in the level 6 range. Your only sources of steel have enemies that level 8s can easily kill with a group. Most of your herb gathering will be done in areas where low levels would also like to be picking herbs, since most of the server is designed for low levels, because at around level 8-10, few ambient threats can challenge you.

Sure, troll leather, adamantine, and devil/demon horns are in areas where level 14+ characters often are, but not all gear is made out of these. And finding one rare herb in Perfidus every 4-5 times you visit isn't the reason you visit, it's just a nice find.

Enchanting doesn't come into this discussion, it's a high level thing as it is. It's not in a terrible place but you should bear in mind that the Temple of Anubis is farmed repeatedly by parties far higher level than should be there for this purpose.

The recent update doesn't change that. Half of the heal potion's herbs can be found near, and will continue to be sourced from, Vallaki. And no alchemist without a death wish will be going to Ghastria or Sithicus, two of the most dangerous domains, in search of mid-tier alchemical reagents. They will be a bonus, especially in Ghastria where loot is commonly the same as the Vallaki outskirts temple crypts.

You would need more tiers of varnishes for this to change without making it too easy to get utter dark residues -- and I don't expect they will change that. You would need more tiers of spawns in the world, more tiers of crafting product, etc. -- and I don't expect they will change that either. It is easier for them and us to just not think about it. So, speaking of the "more often than not" situation, players plainly don't care to become a smith, herbalist, or tailor, not for not realising where to go or what to do, but because they know how many hours they must invest in something that will find them clicking away at a crafting table, and they know that they will eventually reach a higher level just from investing that amount of time into the character, usually on enemies that stopped granting them experience several levels ago with or without a party. That's time they could have spent roleplaying and hitting dungeons appropriate for their level in the meantime.

Those people who do invest all that time are perfectly willing to buy ingredients from lower levels. Every herbalist I've encountered will buy herbs, and at least on my woodworker I buy horns even though I could just go farm them myself. It saves time, but it doesn't patch the issue even if it promotes player-driven economy. And you definitely don't have some regular thing where parties of level 8s go to clear out Dvergeheim and bank the ore until they can find someone who will buy it. It's not the unwillingness of the smiths to have more ore, it's the fact people tend to naturally grow out of a dungeon after doing it once or twice, let alone making it a regular thing for the sake of selling to another crafter.

I play a lvl 62 herbalist and two other lvl 40+ herbalists. The goal with each was to avoid the herbs which grow in low-level areas as soon as possible. In my experience, high lvl characters and herbalists are better off picking herbs in high lvl domains/areas.

There are numerous places on the server to find large quantities of steel. I played a character who mastered smithing and filled all of his steel crafting orders without getting any of his steel from Barovia after he passed lvl 14. Again, I would argue there are better ways of getting steel in high lvl areas. Palm trees, I mean sure I guess. But who is complaining that you are wiping out the spawns around the palm trees? Never heard anyone complain or care about that.

Again, in terms of Enchanting - I would argue that Anubis is not the best way to get essences for enchanting, particularly not for characters above the lvl range of the Anubis dungeon.

When I farmed healing potions, I never went to Vallaki or even Barovia for any of the herbs. There were better places for getting almost all of the herbs and I usually just bought the last herb in large quantities from lower lvl characters. Even if I felt I needed to go to Barovia for that last herb, I could gather it easily enough without even entering any of the dungeons. I definitely wasn't going anywhere near Vallaki for any of it.

Alchemy is barely an issue. Once you reach the bottom of mid-tier alchemy varnishes, there are great options for alchemy reagents in high lvl areas for everything from bottom of mid-tier to max difficulty alchemy. The only way alchemy would present an issue is if you had a lvl 14+ character who decided they wanted to start alchemy as a lvl 1 alchemist. Even then, there are some lesser known options available.

If we look at three examples: Lvl 5 character. Lvl 10 character. Lvl 16 character. There are opportunities for each of those characters to find meaningful crafting xp and dungeoning xp, regardless of where they are in their crafts. (Although the lvl 16 character may struggle for a few crafting levels if they are picking up a craft for the first time at lvl 16, but I really dont think thats a big issue).

[SardineTheAncestor]

Herbs - They aren't better off. A high level can cover the entire map before the herbs respawn, so they will go to every place they can, and that includes low level areas.

Steel - There really aren't that many and none of them are level 14+ areas. You might be able to go to out of the way locations but that doesn't mean it's in a dungeon that grants experience which attracts a party of high levels.

Palm trees - The point isn't that people are complaining about it. The point is that it is the only option. "Expansive" is therefore the incorrect descriptor.

Enchanting - That it is not the best way doesn't mean it isn't one of the only guaranteed spawns, so people will hit it while doing the full circuit. We recently got a new dungeon with equivalent enchanting reagents and that was an excellent addition.

I do think it is an issue that we consider a level 16 to be participating in at-level dungeon content, when they're just rolling over stuff that is no threat to them and grants next to no experience in almost every situation with very few exceptions -- and most of those exceptions are recent adjustments.

To say you think there should be tokens in the mists for high levels to create Heal potions, but then to disagree with me only so far as providing reasons why high levels could avoid low level areas, confuses me. Underestimating the time that high level multi-crafters (let alone those with only one craft) are willing to spend to farm is not going to change the fact that they routinely do. But to be honest, neither is adding more steel mines and herbs in high level areas. It will make it more convenient for those high levels to farm more of what they need, but that won't stop them from hasting through the world and farming everything out from under low levels. Just because you can get by avoiding it this doesn't mean everyone else will do the same.

The trivialisation of most world threats and the ability to cross entire domains in just a few minutes as a high level is why I suggested a lower level cap in the past, then the choice doesn't have to be made, and the team doesn't have to ask people not to do it. It's out of the scope of this thread, though, but several additions not in the original scope of the thread have already been made to increase mid-to-high level crafting reagent availability, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

[MAB77]

If we look at three examples: Lvl 5 character. Lvl 10 character. Lvl 16 character. There are opportunities for each of those characters to find meaningful crafting xp and dungeoning xp, regardless of where they are in their crafts. (Although the lvl 16 character may struggle for a few crafting levels if they are picking up a craft for the first time at lvl 16, but I really dont think thats a big issue).

I echo the sentiment. And let's not forget the huge advantage of high levels. They have gold to spend. Paying lower levels ridiculously high prices to get components was always the best use of my gold. Being patrons to lower level is always a productive approach on many levels.

[SardineTheAncestor]

My entire post is about the huge advantage of high levels, to cover the entire map easily, and then buy reagents off of lower levels.

That is the option for current crafters. This is an activity in general which requires a huge amount of time just to steadily progress and a lot of it will end up being solo time with no experience or challenge.

Yet this conflicts with the design of keeping high levels to their own stories, their own areas, and their own dungeons. Lead admins here including Soren have made their case about it, I'm only mentioning the dissonance in saying it's a good thing when it's really the only thing.

It is the easy, attractive sentiment to echo, but it's untrue to suggest that every craft has a satisfactory amount of reagents available in or around appropriate level dungeons. When a level 14+ smith walks into a mine that requires a search check, and his ankles are bitten by level 5 creatures, or when he goes all the way to Hazlan for a crumb of steel, he is not choosing the efficient or reasonable route, he's doing that out of courtesy or doing it for maximum yield, which has no relation to efficiency. When he goes back to Vallaki because he needs even more steel, you can say he's being discourteous to low levels, but that's a moot point. I've posted about it before and I am posting about it now from the neutral perspective, not the self-interested perspective, that part of the tedium that is crafting is how much emphasis there really is on just wandering around, slaughtering creatures that level 3s find to be easy foes, covering domain after domain to fill your bags with reagents.

Barovia remains the crossroads of the server and even if places like Dvergeheim are considered out of the way, people will go farm it, especially high levels.

I could go on and on, and we could continue making this about something that wasn't related to my suggestion, but it's not really the right thread for it.

I made a suggestion that it would be nice to see more crafting-based loot for high levels. HopeIsTheCarrot agreed. For a constructive discussion, we should riff off of that.

The main reason I'd like to see it is because loot on this server is always very iffy. Sometimes you get oregano from a near-epic level threat. The rod of frost meme? It's actually just the truth. Crafting was implemented as a counter to that, as was enchanting. Whatever we think about these systems, they're here to stay. I personally think it would be very helpful to find more crafting-based loot in high level dungeons because some of them have almost nothing relevant. I'm supporting the recent changes that added more strong reagents for alchemy and I'm just saying I'd like to see more -- not a reversal on the stance before the change has even been implemented.

[Kiyosa]

I think anyone who's above level 14 and lingers around the Outskirts can admit that buying herbs is only one of the reasons to be there and, for some, it's not even that. Otherwise there wouldn't be up to 40+ people (many of them above level 14) at times around the temple, DM event shouts aside. Even for those who do go there with the solemn purpose of buying herbs, the competition among buyers often becomes so fierce, that one can easily stumble on prices up to 120 per herb, which in my opinion is rather ludicrous. I have nothing against paying lower level characters for herbs, but I'd rather not exceed the price of a potion by buying the herbs required for double, sometimes triple their worth.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

In an effort to stay on thread topic - I agree with the heal tokens concept. I’m not sure that I see the need for expansion in many of the other crafts though. I haven’t witnessed a server-wide farming of potions other than heal potions. We already have Adamantine in a high lvl area for smithing. Likewise, platinum for gilding. There are several alchemy drops in a variety of high lvl areas. In my opinion, those crafts are all at a good place. We have devil/demon horns for woodworking, but I would agree that woodworking could use another addition (although I think that may be part of the next hak update). Leatherworking has at least a couple high lvl dungeon options providing useful drops. The tailoring system in general could use further development, but I believe that’s known. In summary, I support high lvl crafting loot drops in the case of heal tokens because I think it fills a need. I don’t see that same need currently across the other crafts (with the possible exception of woodworking).

[zDark Shadowz]

Isnt a herb just a heal token anyway