Power paradigm

[gotesu]

Hi there

Keeping the natural forewords for the end and getting straight to the point, I wanted to share and hear people's opinion about the power scaling paradigm we have (and want)

One of the things I've found (personally) really compelling in terms of the mechanics in this server - is the low magic low level setting, which means that almost every skill counts, every level, feat, spell and more importantly - every character (potentially) can have some impact even mechanically because there are no epic levels to create an insane power creep where a character is useless till it gets to the "epic goodies" of the 20+ lvls or crazy powerbuilds pushing everything aside - because all those (IMO) detract from the rp emphasis and push more people to min-max their builds instead of rp-ing them, and make people who just made a character purely upon concept feel irrelevant when it comes to mechanics.

RP here is great, the people here (you folks) , both players and staff are great, the server mechanics are great, and Im having alot of fun storytelling (and also senseless grinding!) in this server, and I know forum activity is not a 100% accurate measure of what happens in game (for example, there is much less PVP IGly than the amount of discussion it creates in the forum), so what I say is not in terms of complaint, on the contrary, and Im eager to hear what you folks think of it.

To put it simply, I feel that it's possible to get 'too strong', and by too strong I mean to get into numbers that would not shame a properly built character in the epics in other places (40+ ab for example), and this in turn leaves other classes/builds behind untill they too get 'buffed' , which in turn will leave other classes lackluster and the process continues, gradually rising the "power-level" of the entire server when it comes to "mechanical-character-building", leaving other valid rp-concept builds behind (or just ppl who dont want/ arent tuned to invest alot of their mind-power in optimizing builds, but just play and still feel relevant).

I'll give an example from what I've experienced (and Im aware that it's limited, hence what I write is my personal opinion, which could be wrong), my main is a druid and I honestly feel he's too strong, not because Im any good at building, Im not,  and he doesnt even have a single elemental essence feat, but I feel the fact that with an investment of /just/ one feat he can get himself to a base str of 39 and to a consistent 30+ ab even without being fully buffed, solo content rather easily (even though when it comes to solo it's pretty situational, because different mobs got their weaknesses and thats ok) and thats not even near what ppl can get to in terms of AB/AC/whatever if they build druids well (or clerics, or other classes) - IMHO it's a bit too much.

Druid was a lackluster class, and really needed a buff and the additions that were given to them are really great, but some of them (I think) are too great, and in a similar manner I feel other classes are moving (the recent intended fighter buff-up is an example).

This is merely an example, it's not about druids, or bards or fighters (which aren't even yet implemented but is still being discussed and tested), or clerics or anything, it's about what we want the power "limit" or even the power "average" to be (if at all we want it). I personally think it's important because it makes sure all builds (or most) are somewhat valid mechanically, and yes - there will always be vastly superior builds compared to others (and vastly inferior ones too) and it's not bad , but the question is by how wide a margin will they be so.

As I wrote before, this is not at all a complaint, I love and enjoy all the additions and development put into this server, and Im grateful to all the immense work given by the devs and by everyone (players included), I dont think a server apocalypse is coming and Im aware innovating and balancing is a very complex effort, Im merely bringing a point to discuss, and inquiring about what the general (and developer) opinion is over this, and how you see the desired power paradigm.

thoughts?

[Profezzor_Darke]

They're right, you know?

Druids were similarly over powered like Clerics in D&D 3e/3.5. So them being as powerful is not much of a PotMism, that was inherent in P&P already.

The other Problem is, that we're playing D&D. You will get ever more powerful. That's why we restricted the level limit to 20, everything after that just escalates more.

The Whole HP/AB/AC/Dmg escalation is silly in any way to say you play low power. The whole server is still pretty much High Power Dark Fantasy if you go Dungeon Crawling and that is all just a bit silly. So you either need feats and spells and skills and trinkets that make you ever more powerfull to kill those ever more stronger foes or we need to adjust everything completely. I mean it all works. But it doesn't work. Right now, without DM plots, the server is really Dark Fantasy at best. The only Dungeon that comes to mind that is proper Gothic Horror is Raduta Keep, it has  ghosts, omnious texts about why the place is haunted, it features a whole level that really makes you feel the fear of drowning etc. HAr Akir is just silly strong Mummy slaughtering, nothing makes you feel creeped out really. (Fun Fact: the old Computer RPG Ravenloft: Stone Prophet was described at being the least Ravenloft-like game one could have imagined since it was really only a dungeon crawler) But I drift off...

Point being, the Server is, *mechanically* optimised for high power play since D&D is actually optimised for that and I doubt that will change because of that very reason. You would need to actually Butcher D&D properly to make it work for a Multiplayer base in all of this context. On Tabletop or in DM situations that's all no problem because you can just adjust the Power level to the Party involved in your campaign. We always say the sweetspot is around level 14 to play on the server. That is more or less how it should be without any doubt, most Dark Lords are personally about that level and are only so powerful because of their additional Dark Lord Powers and Plot Devices. What we would need is a lower cap on maximum power a character can have and accordingly adjust the environments.

I really wish there was a way to adjust the power level in a way that a high level character would still fear Barovia for example.

[Hallvor Hadiya]

Its as Profezzor Darke, says Ravenloft is simply not designed for high level play, but this isn't Ravenloft. Its Prisoners of the Mist, a Neverwinter Nights persistent world. Its an adaptation not a translation, the fundamental squeeze as far as I can see is that the setting is heightened, which is far less gothic horror and more epic horror. Everything is more powerful than the books, the monsters that inhabit it, the npcs, and especially the Darklords. Everything is grander in scope while this creates oddities like "why don't we kick in the door of that bat f*ck", it is necessary for the game element.

D&D, was never intended to host multiple parties all at varying levels, but that is the position we find ourselves in. It is not simply one little hotfix for a particular class that's going to resolve this, but broad and sweeping change to the current content. I don't think POTM is ready for that, or can even accommodate it. So the server is very much "take it as it is", try to ignore the things that don't make sense and pursue the stuff that does. Its a very shrug of the shoulders statement, but its a very old server and it has all built towards this.

[DM Erebus]

Perpetual NCE server when?

[gotesu]

Despite the fact my main aim was towards the gap between optimal builds and non-optimal builds, I think taking it to the world of dungeons and PvE encounters could be used as an implication and example (I won't relate to DM events because I didnt see enough of those).

Let's say we want a dungeon that will be considered "very tough" (a very vague term I know), if, while designing it we want to it to actually be tough, it means we need to make it tough in comparison to the optimal builds running around, but by doing so we will make the non-optimal builds completely useless in these dungeons (unless they're buffers/healers), when the gap between an optimal build and a non-optimal build which serve the 'same party role' can (easily) reach 15+ ab (Im taking AB just because it's the easiest example) it means you can hardly make a dungeon that will fit both and get the result you want.

I'll say that I have zero experience at dungeon designing and I think the dungeons in this server are great (as is all the content in general), hence the example might be inaccurate and other solutions can be found, I am merely using it as an example to show an implication of a growing gap (which will always be there, the question is how big it will be).

Build optimization is not a bad thing, and Im not going to tell anyone how to build or play, nor do I wish to imply that powerbuilding means bad rp, what I wish to address is the fact that I worry some rp concepts/builds can become (or are already) left behind because they lose mechanical relevancy, and there might be a narrowing of in-class variety because people take the same 'must-have' power 'route'.

[Profezzor_Darke]

They're right again.

I think there is another Problem. And that is that killing Monsters Yields XP. Sounds dumb, right? But honestly, D&D was initially *not about killing monsters*. Now people will say: "Duh, are you dumb? Look at all those fighting mechanics.", but they are reminiscent of when D&D was a hack of a Wargame. A Dungeon Crawl is about *surviving the Dungeon and gathering loot*. Back in the day every Gold Coin yielded XP, every treasure did based on it's value. Every explored room, opened door, disabled trap. The whole shift towards killing enemies yields more or only fighting yields XP is more or less a "Diablo-ism" and as such the focus shifted on killing things. Well now, Gothic Horror is not about killing things. If you want to make Optimised builds unnecessary, then you need to completely redesign the PvE environment about being definitely too weak to face every enemy and make dungeons more about exploring them.
A Tomb or Crypt for example that is the Tomb of a king would have the main burial chamber be extra guarded and have some more legendary loot. For example could it guarantee a random magical sword drop, but therefore you must gain access to it. And that would be really tough.
Or in the Dungeon of a Dragon, could the Dragon be so legendary, that fighting it would almost certainly kill you. It could instead trigger a dialogue that allows you to leave, you silly mortal being, but therefore you won't gain access to the Hoard, or even the scales of the dragon. But made it past the guards and looted what you could have gotten until then. So a dungeon should be about avoiding danger. A viable way could be sending the scout to learn guard patrols and then guide the party safely through the corridors without being seen for example.

What we actually need are Dungeons that accommodate party constellations and playstiles that go off from; "Go in, mush everything, loot". That's not Adventuring, that's Murder-hoboing. Adventuring is about exploring and surviving stuff.

Sithicus is actually a perfect example for this. There should be a way that avoids every direct confrontation to make it to Har-Thelen. You're only travelling through the country, why the heck do I need to fight myself through every crypt and then even confront Shadows that just kill me instantly?? I think there should be a clever alternate option for characters that are not about fighting things. And it shouldn't be classic Ninja Looting as Rogue or Mage build. Dungeons should always have the option to sneak past enemies through secret passages, clever mechanisms, ways to avoid triggering the magical sigils awakening the undead guardians, perhaps you need to copy a magical ritual to unlock the last chamber etc. etc.

Most Dungeons commonly done are for optimised parties wiping them clean and then looting in peace. That is more or less a handfull of character playstyles that makes playing them viable if you want to see more than just the pathway between the few cities and villages you can visit.

[Kamfrenchie]

Just a slight correction on Sithicus, but if you have a good guide it is afai possible for anyone to get there, though it remains angerous.

I agree on the overall point though

[APorg]

Perpetual NCE server when?

Some developer needs to create Noob Island, a place where level 2s can opt to go instead of Vallaki, where they get booted out once they hit level 5+

[Khornite]

Sithicus is actually a perfect example for this. There should be a way that avoids every direct confrontation to make it to Har-Thelen. You're only travelling through the country, why the heck do I need to fight myself through every crypt and then even confront Shadows that just kill me instantly?

There's a lore reason for it, but I'll not post spoilers. That's why it's built that way.