Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions

[slash]

if you invest 16 levels into pure fighter then you deserve to be this good with a weapon, All other classes are their own thing pure but up to now pure fighter was just a dip for feats, and AB

By that logic, weapon masters ought to get access to Overwhelming Critical for their level 10 capstone

Just kidding, of course (unless...?). As things are, I already find myself struggling to contend with pure fighters in a one-on-one scenario, though that is in part due to my poor building capabilities. I'll tentatively say that Fighters are in a decent spot as things are now, at least in terms of competing with their fellow full-BAB classes, with the caveat that my perception is somewhat colored by my current skill-level. These new feats certainly sound like a lot of fun, but may be a bit excessive.

[Khornite]

Yeah, right now, there'd be no way to reach +5 on Combat Strike or Combat Defence.  They'd have to add a 10th Feat.

Still, I think it's a welcome change.  I still think Combat Strike right now will be a very attractive PvP tool to end-game Rogue/Fighters, even if they only invest 6 feats for +3/+3, but at least this is on par with things like Divine Favour from comparable Rogue/Cleric builds.

Here's the thing that confuses me though. Rogue and Cleric are support classes, they aren't designed or intended to be on par with fighters or barbarians in terms of melee capability. Fighters are tanks, the entire point of their class is to melee. Why are we wanting fighters to be comparable in melee to classes who primary job ISN'T melee and are designed to be LESS effective in melee as fighters? Especially when these other SUPPORT classes are better in melee already and are more versatile than fighters? Fighters SHOULD be better than the 1-15 AB classes. It's why the class exists in the first place.

[APorg]

Here's the thing that confuses me though.

I'm comparing the damage bonus from Combat Strike to a similar "burst" improvement like Divine Favour.  I'm drawing a parallel with Rog/Clr because Rog/Clr are the kind of stealthers who can draw on a pure +3/+3, like Rog/Ftrs will be.  Moreover, there's a false dichotomy in your post.  Clerics are a support class, yes, but they're also given plenty of burst tools to be able to punch above their weight for brief moments.  (e.g. Divine Power, Divine Favour.)

Even if we're comparing just martial classes, pure Fighters currently will have +4/+4 from Combat Strike, which will beat a Paladin casting Divine Favour.

Frankly, I think Combat Strike in its current form is still so seriously strong that it completely dominates certain builds. Rog7/Ftr13 will be an incredible stealth killer that will be much more potent than PRC Assassins in many contexts.  Ftr13/WM7 will probably become the new "standard" Weapon Master build, displacing all previous Weapon Master builds with Rogue dips (maybe Ftr13/WM6-5/Rog1-2, but you'd get Combat Strike over Ki Critical, surely, that's how good Combat Strike still is).  Even Ftr/Wiz -- never an optimal multiclass but always fun -- will have a new sweet spot at Ftr13/Wiz7.

This stuff is still utterly revolutionary.

[Khornite]

This stuff is still utterly revolutionary.

These feats have been around for about 15 years and are even MORE powerful in their pen and paper form. Of all the top fighter builds that have been around in competitive D&D, these feats took a backseat to things like monkey grip and thri-kreen weapon masters (Yes, the god awful P&P version from "Sword & Fist") or dervishes. These feats didn't break D&D when they were introduced in "Complete Warrior" in 2003, they aren't going to break D&D now. There's several clever balancing mechanics added into these feats that I don't se being brought up, so let me address a few.

For starters, these feats can only be taken as fighter feats. From what I've seen, only as fighter BONUS feats. So at level 12 when I have a fighter bonus feat and a feat from leveling, I was only able to select ONE of these new feats. So people going 13 fighter aren't going to get many of these feats to toy around with.

Secondly, these feat uses are going to burn up a LOT faster than people think. The feats trigger AFTER the first round of combat. Say you're in a dungeon and you're all setting down to rest. The act of resting draws over a single enemy that you missed and the fighter has to handle it. Congrats, there's one use of your combat focus that's gone. Running through the mists to find the dragon or illithid? Your character auto attacking that random mist horror that popped out to ambush you just took one of your uses away.

Third, these feats are not something you can trigger at will BY DESIGN, both to differentiate it from Rage, but also as a balancing mechanic. Fighters have to be a lot more selective about when they are going to move in and what fights are not worth taking if they want to make the most of these feats.

Fourth, yes fighters get a lot of feats. But just for the six feats I wanted, it was a total of EIGHT feats due to the requirements (Dodge and Resist Energy). A lot of fighter versatility goes right out the window and on POTM versatility is king.

Additionally, if this stuff is revolutionary, what are all these 75 AC bard/cleric builds on the server? What are all these 60+ AC rogue/bard builds? What is the level 12 bard/barbarbian that's routinely soloing Cursts? How about the level 16 wizard/rogue/bard that was soloing VEIDRAVA? Voodan didn't break the server. Hexblade didn't break the server. These feats aren't going to break the server, either.

And even with ALL these feats, fighters are still going to be less effective at tanking than late game version druids, clerics and wizards.

I see a lot of talk in this thread and the heal potion thread about things making mages optional in dungeons. Guess what class type is the most "optional" currently? Fighters and barbarians. The best tanks on the server are support classes and mages. I've routinely seen tank characters left on the sidelines in favor of the wizard who has shapechange or the druid with elemental shape. So all this talk about "Oh, this will make mages optional in dungeons cause fighters get a buff or because potions exist", fighters are already the ones that are optional in every late game dungeon. And it's mages and support classes being so good at tanking that made them optional.

Edit: Had a Freudian Slip, the feats are from Players Handbook 2, I said Complete Warrior. I have many books open at the moment.

[APorg]

The PnP feats are not stronger.  PnP Combat Strike can only be activated by ending your other combat focus benefits (https://dndtools.net/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/combat-strike--405/), and Combat Focus, Combat Defence, and Combat Vigor are weaker in their PnP version.

So I stand by my statement.  I'm acknowledging the fact that serious builders are going back to the drawing board and redesigning melee concepts from scratch: that's revolutionary.

Sure, Fighters still won't be able to self-buff (beyond potions, etc.).  But you know what?  They'll be utterly terrifying now with a proper buffer, being clearly, mathematically, better than Barbarians and Paladins in a number of scenarios.

[APorg]

In fact I'll go even further: the proposed Feats are considerably better and more powerful than their PnP versions, especially given their changed pre-requisites.  Most notably, the WIS 13 pre-req was dropped on all of them (dropped to 12 on one), allowing Fighters here to preserve a dump stat; replacing it with INT (in Combat Strike's case) is a "Gimme" -- most Fighters are going to be taking INT 13+ anyway.

[Khornite]

The PnP feats are not stronger.  PnP Combat Strike can only be activated by ending your other combat focus benefits (https://dndtools.net/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/combat-strike--405/), and Combat Focus, Combat Defence, and Combat Vigor are weaker in their PnP version.

So I stand by my statement.  I'm acknowledging the fact that serious builders are going back to the drawing board and redesigning melee concepts from scratch: that's revolutionary.

Sure, Fighters still won't be able to self-buff (beyond potions, etc.).  But you know what?  They'll be utterly terrifying now with a proper buffer, being clearly, mathematically, better than Barbarians and Paladins in a number of scenarios.

Combat Awareness in PnP gives you Blindsight, that's stronger than the true seeing it gives here. You know what makes them stronger in PNP? The fact that you're not going to be wasting uses just because a random wolf ran into your threatened square. It's not about the feats themselves but the implementation and the medium. Combat in PNP is also a lot quicker than in NWN and a LOT less chaotic. The cool down in PnP is also much more clear and cut, which will lead to less confusion and people standing around going "okay, think my cooldown is over with" before charging the next encounter. I'd also argue that Combat Vigor is more powerful in PNP as it requires less feat investment AND the DR3 granted by POTM's version is effectively useless as most people who will be taking these feats will have adamantine armor which grants that bonus already.

In fact I'll go even further: the proposed Feats are considerably better and more powerful than their PnP versions, especially given their changed pre-requisites.  Most notably, the WIS 13 pre-req was dropped on all of them (dropped to 12 on one), allowing Fighters here to preserve a dump stat; replacing it with INT (in Combat Strike's case) is a "Gimme" -- most Fighters are going to be taking INT 13+ anyway.

13 wis on a fighter in PnP where you're rolling dice for your stats is not difficult at all. Hell, getting two 18s at level 1 isn't even that uncommon. 13 wis on NWN is a MUCH bigger investment with the point buy system.

THEN consider the multiclassing rules on the server. The fact that you can only take these feats as fighter bonus feats and have to have at least 10 levels for anything good locks them out of a lot of builds that would normally be things like Bard 4/Rogue 4/Cleric 12. In order to get a good number of them, you have to take fighter to 15. (Unless there's a change incoming that will allow the feats to be taken more freely)

[APorg]

Combat Awareness in PnP gives you Blindsight, that's stronger than the true seeing it gives here.

Yes, they nerfed that one feat and took away Blindsight 5ft... like they nerfed every single other source of PC Blindsight/True Seeing on this server.  They merely aligned Combat Awareness with server policy.

You know what makes them stronger in PNP? The fact that you're not going to be wasting uses just because a random wolf ran into your threatened square. It's not about the feats themselves but the implementation and the medium. Combat in PNP is also a lot quicker than in NWN and a LOT less chaotic. The cool down in PnP is also much more clear and cut, which will lead to less confusion and people standing around going "okay, think my cooldown is over with" before charging the next encounter.

How much actual dungeoning have you done with these feats on the test server?  Do you seriously think Fighters are going to be troubled by random wolf spawns when they settle down for a proper PvE dungeon grind, or when they're about to engage in PvP?  I don't credit your argument.

I'd also argue that Combat Vigor is more powerful in PNP as it requires less feat investment AND the DR3 granted by POTM's version is effectively useless as most people who will be taking these feats will have adamantine armor which grants that bonus already.

The alternative perspective is that Combat Vigor might reduce the need for adamantium armour.  And that's assuming that you're correct in the first place, and that they didn't mean damage resistance 3/-, which would stack with adamantium's damage resistance.

... So still four Feats that are better on PotM than in PnP, one nerfed in line with server policy, and one where you might have a point if they indeed meant damage reduction. Oh, and some entirely new Feats, too.  Hmm.

13 wis on a fighter in PnP where you're rolling dice for your stats is not difficult at all. Hell, getting two 18s at level 1 isn't even that uncommon. 13 wis on NWN is a MUCH bigger investment with the point buy system.

Come on, this is desperate. Point Buy also exists outside of NWN, and Feats are generally balanced by designers assuming a generic point buy array.  PotM's decision to drop the 13 WIS pre-req is an outright buff, no two ways about it.

THEN consider the multiclassing rules on the server. The fact that you can only take these feats as fighter bonus feats and have to have at least 10 levels for anything good locks them out of a lot of builds that would normally be things like Bard 4/Rogue 4/Cleric 12. In order to get a good number of them, you have to take fighter to 15. (Unless there's a change incoming that will allow the feats to be taken more freely)

... Yes.  To get good Fighter feats, you need to invest heavily in Fighter levels.... I don't see a problem with this?...

The whole argument about the number of Feats it takes is weak.  Fighters get a huge number of Feats, that's the whole point.  Oh, you need even more Feats as pre-reqs?  Well, guess what, you're on PotM, everyone gets even more feats here!

This is a pure upgrade in every sense, they applied one little nerf because we correctly point out that Combat Strike is kinda strong, and you're now unhappy that the cherry on top of the cake isn't pure solid gold?  Come on. There's no silver lining here, it's all pure Fighter win.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yeah, if you get fighter 13 at 20, or it's your last 2-3 levels, you're probably not getting all the feats here, some of the good ones require fighter 13 and you can only take them on fighter levels I think, so you need at least fighter 14. You're also waiting the entire game to finally get those feats when they would've been useful several levels ago. This is kind of like when we said Voodan was going to be the best spellcaster but it had the casting ability of a level 16 when it finally, after so much grinding, hit level 20.

I would like to see a way for pure fighters to get more out of this than the multiclassed fighters (while level 20 is very late into the game, it's still part of the game), even if they can already get stuff earlier than those delaying their build with multiclass. It means their enchanting loop and the majority of their gameplay will be more comfortable, one of the main problems of pure fighter right now is waiting a long time to get anything decent and most of it's mediocre, whereas a rogue/fighter has earlier, more frequent powerspikes, and more versatility as he levels up.

I'd also like to say that clerics rarely fill the role of 'tank' in a party. Party-buffed druids and wizards can polymorph to achieve much higher AC and resistances. And that's okay because clerics don't have to drop form to heal or rebuff, which is a feature of the gameplay balance. The flow between tying up enemies in melee to stop my party from having to fight everything, to healing allies, and keeping everyone buffed at their best for as long as I can is part of what makes my characters' gameplay interesting.

Pure fighters might be a bit lackluster and they're definitely outclassed by barbarians and paladins right now, but a fighter/rogue multiclass without using UMD can achieve higher AB, damage, AC, and HP than a pure cleric with all personals up (but not a rogue/cleric using UMD), at least if they're in a party together.

I think this whole thing with not being able to control it sounds more like some kind of twisted possession mechanic rather than a fighter in control of his abilities, would like to see them retain some control over it or have it be more certain. I don't really know what to think about that yet.

[Chabxxu]

As someone who has tested how to build a pure fighter to get everyone of those feats, it is not as easy as it sounds. Fighters get a lot of feats, but most of the new feats become available at later levels, which makes the 10 to 18 levels not allow much versatility if you want all of them.  Forcing people to take them at later levels would probably make it impossible to have all of them.

[SardineTheAncestor]

If only certain feats could be locked to a pure class, without being level 16+.

That's my own dislike of capstones though. I just think the idea of playing a character to unlock something you'll only get after around a year of active play is a crazy expectation. Kind of ruins the surprise to have planned that far in advance even if it's so necessary to get the build to work.

[Khornite]

How much actual dungeoning have you done with these feats on the test server?  Do you seriously think Fighters are going to be troubled by random wolf spawns when they settle down for a proper PvE dungeon grind, or when they're about to engage in PvP?  I don't credit your argument.

Burned three charges just in transit to a dungeon. While navigating a cave, a random bat triggered one of my uses. This has been rectified to some extent in a recent update so it won't happen as often.

The alternative perspective is that Combat Vigor might reduce the need for adamantium armour.  And that's assuming that you're correct in the first place, and that they didn't mean damage resistance 3/-, which would stack with adamantium's damage resistance.

They don't stack. Already tested it.

Come on, this is desperate. Point Buy also exists outside of NWN, and Feats are generally balanced by designers assuming a generic point buy array.  PotM's decision to drop the 13 WIS pre-req is an outright buff, no two ways about it.

Yes, point buy exists outside of NWN, it is an alternative ruleset. That does not discredit my point that a 13 ability score is a pretty hefty investment for a class that ultimately doesn't benefit much from wisdom outside of meeting one feat requirement. A feat, might I add, which is less effective than a potion.

... Yes.  To get good Fighter feats, you need to invest heavily in Fighter levels.... I don't see a problem with this?...

There isn't a problem with that. That's a good thing. That's literally my point. It's a balancing restriction. And as I also mentioned, these feats can ONLY be taken as fighter bonus feats (Tested this on four characters) which means you have to invest to make the feats worth use. I like this idea which is why I brought it up. It stops people from just cramming as many of these feats as possible into levels 10, 11, and 12 and taking a third class to unlock more cheese. At level 15 the characters I was testing this with had two feats. I had the requirements to take two of the combat focus feats. After I took one of them, I could not take any other that level, implying these are only feats that can be taken as fighter bonus feats. Whether this was intentional or not, I think this is a strong way to balance the feats.

The whole argument about the number of Feats it takes is weak.  Fighters get a huge number of Feats, that's the whole point.  Oh, you need even more Feats as pre-reqs?  Well, guess what, you're on PotM, everyone gets even more feats here!

You are misrepresenting my argument and even ignoring where I break it down. My point is that you can't dip a few levels in fighter and gain access to a bunch of these feats, so a lot of cheese builds that require just a few levels in fighter aren't going to have access to these and the multiclassing rule is going to encourage fighters only having one other class and not two other classes. That is exactly why I even gave class level breakdowns. The lack of versatility that will come from investing in all these feats will be felt by a good number of builds.

You're now unhappy that the cherry on top of the cake isn't pure solid gold?  Come on. There's no silver lining here, it's all pure Fighter win.

No, I am not upset but was merely pointing out that feat descriptions might need to be adjusted or an additional feat added in response to the change. That is it.

[Marcus Weyland]

The lack of versatility that will come from investing in all these feats will be felt by a good number of builds.

I think this is a bad thing. The new meta being incredibly linear and precluding any kind of adjustment for player taste. But then, with 27 feats, fighters can have a lot of internal variety, so maybe we'll still see that.

[APorg]

Yes, point buy exists outside of NWN, it is an alternative ruleset. That does not discredit my point that a 13 ability score is a pretty hefty investment for a class that ultimately doesn't benefit much from wisdom outside of meeting one feat requirement.

You tried to assert that it's not a big deal in PnP because a 13 WIS would be a trivial investment there, so therefore it's a heftier investment in NWN.  While it's common for people to play that way with rerolls so that people would commonly have such high stats, it's not how the game was balanced by designers.  In fact, some research indicates that DnD3.5 was generally balanced around 25 point spend (as per the DMG standard), not 30, so from that perspective, the opposite of your assertion is true:  the 13 WIS pre-req was a bigger deal in PnP.

The lack of versatility that will come from investing in all these feats will be felt by a good number of builds.

There are certain multiclass builds that really didn't need that much help.

[Khornite]

The lack of versatility that will come from investing in all these feats will be felt by a good number of builds.

I think this is a bad thing. The new meta being incredibly linear and precluding any kind of adjustment for player taste. But then, with 27 feats, fighters can have a lot of internal variety, so maybe we'll still see that.

That's exactly why I see it as a balancing act. If you really want all of these feats, you are going to pay heavily for it. You can stab and stab well. But fighters who dabble into another class are not going to have as many feats to back up whatever other skills they take. So sneaking rogue/fighters are going to have less stealth support feats. Fighters specializing in two weapons will be less common.

I'll always stand by it when I say, versatility is king on POTM and big investments like this can harm your character when you get into a dungeon. Especially if you're soloing or duoing. Now that the fighter is more heavily invested in stabbing, rogues are going to be a more attractive option to bring along since the fighter/rogue isn't investing into a wider range of skills and feats any more.

[Chabxxu]

The lack of versatility that will come from investing in all these feats will be felt by a good number of builds.

I think this is a bad thing. The new meta being incredibly linear and precluding any kind of adjustment for player taste. But then, with 27 feats, fighters can have a lot of internal variety, so maybe we'll still see that.

Even with all the feats they get, they wont be able to have much versatility and roleplay feats if they want to get all the nice fighter feats. I've been theorybuilding fighters for the last few days and I'm pretty tight on feats.

[Marcus Weyland]

I've been theorybuilding fighters for the last few days and I'm pretty tight on feats.

How is that possible? There are a lot of new feats but not nearly a double-digit number. Aside from those, slap expertise, imp expertise, blind fight, weapon focus, weapon specialization, g. weapon specialization, imp critical, and imp knockdown, and you're still not even halfway done spending your feats. You've got plenty left over to go for guns, and the save feats, and some skill focii.

[Chabxxu]

Let's say I make a human fighter. That means at lvl 20, I'll have 28 feats.

There is 9 combat form feats. Those feats also require Toughness, Blindfight, dodge and resist energy. That means 13 feats.

Then you have the 3 charisma feats.

Weapon Focus, Weapon specialization, improve critical, greater weapon focus, greater weapon specialization and martial supremacy are another 6 feats.

Most people are going to take exotic proficiency if going single weapon, or improve parry when using a two hand weapon. 1 feat here.

Then you want armor skin, expertise, improve expertise. 3 more feats.

Already I'm at 26 feats. I'd have 2 feats left as a human fighter that gets a free feat at level 1, or only 1 feat left for any other race.

If you really want to take all the fighter only feats, you don't really have that much versatility in what you want to take. Especially since most of those feats are only takeable with 8+ BAB.

Don't get me wrong. I love those feats, I think they are great and going to make fighters powerhouses. But saying they still have some versatility because of the number of feats they get isn't very true because of the high number of fighter feats there is now.

[Marcus Weyland]

That's a pretty comprehensible breakdown, and yeah you're right. I guess to get any kind of versatility you'd have to start trimming down your feats.

The combat focus feats' effects cap at 5 feats taken, you don't need to take all 9. That said, they're all so powerful you might well get shoehorned into taking them anyway. You almost certainly don't need Combat Stability or Final Stand. In the face of these new feats, Armor Skin and Martial Supremacy aren't super great, and I wouldn't think you'd need them (+1 AB and +2 AC? we're dealing in magnitudes of +5s, here, now!). I don't know if Inspire Competence's AB bonus scales upward or if that only applies to the Will save part of the feat. It's good either way but if the latter, you could pretty safely dump it. Even Combat Awareness, despite being pretty good, doesn't have INSANE value. So I think you could safely scrape together a nice fistful of feats to take Saves stuff, or gun stuff, if it pleases.

It compares extremely favorably to, say, Barbarians, who despite needing most of the same base feats, and having a line of bespoke Rage feats, only have 14 (15 if human) feats to work with, total.

[Hatsune]

I think the point should be though, that not EVERY fighter should automatically takes these feats, every time. Currently, there is no reason not to. If every fighter is meant to take these, just make them class features instead of giving fighters tons of bonus feats.

My issues are when they will start making other classes/prestige classes irrelevant. Why be a Dwarven Defender?. Biggest things dwarven defender gets, +ac, DR (and stance for lil more AC and +str/con, but thats mediocre given its limitations). Fighters now get +same/more ac, same blanket DR, 10/+4 DR, elemental immunites, +hit/damage, +a bunch of other things. Sure its not 'all the time', but people will modify how they play and make sure they are using it to the fullest. Not going to have Combat Form Fighters running into combat without thier stance.

My biggest issues are going to be when these start letting Straight fighters take the top roll in many different realms, even over specialized classes (Arcane Archers will be sub-par archers to Fighters, Barbarians sub-par bruisers, etc.).

[mccarthy00]

The short buffs are strong yes, but everyone needs to keep in mind they are very short compared to Defenders. at level 16 if you get all the none cha feats it only lasts about 2m (18 rounds) now that's plenty of time to end a fight, but at level 16 you pass the point of any multiclassing and have committed to being a pure fighter missing out on things like tumble and spot or anything a few levels in rouge would give you.

The other point I see many missing is that it once per encounter, that short boost will not last a full fight in most places and yes you get one use per day for every two fighter levels but there's a 60s cooldown where you would need to make your party stand about just waiting, this will slow down everything and most will not wait for the fighter to recharge unless absolutely needed.

[BahamutZ3RO]

-Changed Corrupt Weapon to deal 1d6 damage rather than 1d4.
-Added Unholy Sword as a level 4 Blackguard spell; it's an anti-Holy Sword:

This is cool. My only ask would be that Unholy Sword deal divine damage instead of negative. Negative energy is incredibly easy to circumvent and divine energy is meant to represent both good and evil sources of divinity.

[Revenant]

The damage type might be based off of the source material for the spell. Divine would still be cool, particularly if one of those newer VFXs could be applied with the spell, but the meat of it is definitely the +5 and the dispel.

It's cool to see the spell even as is, though if I had one "wish" for it, it would actually be to alter the duration. As it stands, it's only ever going to last half as long as a Holy Sword.

Good addition. 

[EO]

-Changed Corrupt Weapon to deal 1d6 damage rather than 1d4.
-Added Unholy Sword as a level 4 Blackguard spell; it's an anti-Holy Sword:

This is cool. My only ask would be that Unholy Sword deal divine damage instead of negative. Negative energy is incredibly easy to circumvent and divine energy is meant to represent both good and evil sources of divinity.

That's reasonable (for Unholy Sword); will tweak it.

[BahamutZ3RO]

It's cool to see the spell even as is, though if I had one "wish" for it, it would actually be to alter the duration. As it stands, it's only ever going to last half as long as a Holy Sword.

That's a good point, and one of the most frustrating things about a lot of PrC features (Smite Good/Evil on Blackguard and Divine Champion, for example).