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Author Topic: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions  (Read 6142 times)

Phantasia

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2021, 01:56:32 AM »
Sorry, I mistyped.  The Barbarian has 75 rounds of rage.  And has to cope with Fatigue in between.

Not if you're pure classed BABY!

As for the player of the pure Fighter, Ulrich Brandt (with permission), has told me that these feats are an absolutely necessary step forward for the pure Fighter. In comparison, they are absolutely the most reliant on an extra person or two class out of all of them.

They can't sneak. They can't heal themselves unless they waste potions or other items. They can't hold themselves for an eternity against threats even a few CR below them. They can't buff themselves without wasting their coin even for the smallest of encounters. In fact I'd argue their ability to survive is at the lowest rung, if not the lowest. For a FIGHTER, the master at arms, I would ask, is this not concerning when compared to other classes?

I have routinely watched even multiclassed Fighters struggle to hold their own against threats of similar CR even when buffed to the teeth the best they can muster alone through potions and scrolls. And even when they do this, they have to burn at least 10,000gp to do so, while my spellcaster has to do nothing but do their buff dance and profit.

This strong change should stay for pure Fighters and be toned down for multiclassers. I can't really see any other way.
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APorg

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2021, 02:20:09 AM »
Sorry, I mistyped.  The Barbarian has 75 rounds of rage.  And has to cope with Fatigue in between.

Not if you're pure classed BABY!

Pure class level 16 Barb with CON 14 (goes to 20 while raging) and Extended Rage: Greater Rage (5x/Day) x (5+5+5) = 5 x 15 = 75.


Frankly, just the +5 AC/+5 damage/+5 AB of Combat Forms feats for half a dozen ten round bursts would be enough to radically transform the Fighter class.  All the DR/immunities/regeneration/Skill/save boosts are icing on the cake (and much less what Fighters should be about, IMO).

But you're right.  Making pure Fighters that badass, well, I guess I won't lose sleep if they overshoot the mark.

Rogue/Fighters having access to Combat Strike and +5AB/+5 damage, though, on top of stealth and UMD skills, that's not right.
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Phantasia

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2021, 02:22:16 AM »
Sorry, I mistyped.  The Barbarian has 75 rounds of rage.  And has to cope with Fatigue in between.

Not if you're pure classed BABY!

Pure class level 16 Barb with CON 14 (goes to 20 while raging) and Extended Rage: Greater Rage (5x/Day) x (5+5+5) = 5 x 15 = 75.

???

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Tireless_Rage
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2021, 02:25:27 AM »
Sorry, I mistyped.  The Barbarian has 75 rounds of rage.  And has to cope with Fatigue in between.

Not if you're pure classed BABY!

Pure class level 16 Barb with CON 14 (goes to 20 while raging) and Extended Rage: Greater Rage (5x/Day) x (5+5+5) = 5 x 15 = 75.


Frankly, just the +5 AC/+5 damage/+5 AB of Combat Forms feats for half a dozen ten round bursts would be enough to radically transform the Fighter class.  All the DR/immunities/regeneration/Skill/save boosts are icing on the cake (and much less what Fighters should be about, IMO).

But you're right.  Making pure Fighters that badass, well, I guess I won't lose sleep if they overshoot the mark.

Rogue/Fighters having access to Combat Strike and +5AB/+5 damage, though, on top of stealth and UMD skills, that's not right.

So perhaps forcing these feats to not exist until post-16 would resolve the concern? I concur. I really only want to see this kind of oomph in the hands of pure fighters.

Phantasia

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2021, 02:25:33 AM »
???

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Tireless_Rage

I did specify 16, not 17 ;)

If you are comparing an absolutely vital turning point for a pure classed Barbarian one level below, sure, I can see how Fighter at that level will be stronger. Once that threshold is crossed, that argument is utterly moot. I disagree, long and short of it. I think a pure Barbarian will still win a prolonged fight with a Fighter, especially because they get to keep using rage.

This is also assuming the Barbarian does absolutely nothing to improve his situation against the Fighter that cannot leave combat unless they try to run away. In terms of PvE I believe it is much the same--this is assuming the Barbarian also does nothing to improve his situation there as well. In that instance, sure, the fighter can leave and dip back away for a minute, but at what cost to his group? At what cost solo? How much time is realistically wasted, if the only way they can clear that content is to just run away and re-engage? It's a completely absurdist way to play.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 02:27:37 AM by Phantasia »
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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2021, 02:32:59 AM »
In PvP, any stealth class with some bottled black and a sling can falsely trigger the ability.

No, the ability is triggered when the Fighter attacks.
In my tests, It seems to trigger the round after you roll initiative for anything. Taking fall damage for those gateway transitions triggered it for me. Getting stunned without attacking triggered it, etc.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2021, 02:37:29 AM »
I think anyone in for pure class benefits is going to heavily weight their 16+ options. For anyone who plans to pure class, 16 is where the game begins, not unlike how some multiclasses take longer to come online than others because of the server's narrow meta. People talk about armor skin and overwhelming crit like they're the best thing since sliced bread and make fighters viable but we all know the truth, and how it compares to what barbs and monks get after 16.

I recognise that pure fighter does not have the capstones of other martials, not even the other mundanes. I don't like capstones in general because they are a big part of this endgame thing that's been all over the forums and discord lately. That is to say I believe they are part of a bigger problem. But those aren't going away and pure fighters need it more than any other pure class.

But that brings me back to the start of this post: yes it's a good idea to buff pure fighters especially, but do you really want everyone who makes a pure fighter to wait until 16 to benefit from this update?
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APorg

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2021, 02:50:44 AM »
If you are comparing an absolutely vital turning point for a pure classed Barbarian one level below, sure, I can see how Fighter at that level will be stronger. Once that threshold is crossed, that argument is utterly moot. I disagree, long and short of it. I think a pure Barbarian will still win a prolonged fight with a Fighter, especially because they get to keep using rage.

I mean, that's great, but I chose a point of comparison at level 16 because apparently comparing level 20 wasn't appropriate.  Why don't you have the argument about the comparison levels with BSR and get back to me?

Quote
This is also assuming the Barbarian does absolutely nothing to improve his situation against the Fighter that cannot leave combat unless they try to run away. In terms of PvE I believe it is much the same--this is assuming the Barbarian also does nothing to improve his situation there as well. In that instance, sure, the fighter can leave and dip back away for a minute, but at what cost to his group? At what cost solo? How much time is realistically wasted, if the only way they can clear that content is to just run away and re-engage? It's a completely absurdist way to play.

You seem to be making the assumption that the Fighter will be doing nothing, too, or that Fighter players will forget about the existence of Improved Expertise.

During bursts, the Fighter has +5 AB/+5AC/+5 damage, and better damage DR.  Plus Greater Weapon Focus.  Plus Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialisation.

The Barbarian has a lower AB/damage boost (well, he can get +5AB/+5 dam, but at cost to his AC), his AC actually goes down, and has none of the Fighter feats to give him an edge.

If I'm honest, I'm having a hard time seeing the Barbarian survive the first 14 turns unless both have given themselves serious AC buffs to skew the matter towards an endurance contest.

But why don't we stop throwing out hypotheses and built test characters to test it out?
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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2021, 03:00:50 AM »
In my tests, It seems to trigger the round after you roll initiative for anything. Taking fall damage for those gateway transitions triggered it for me. Getting stunned without attacking triggered it, etc.

OK, that's interesting, that contradicts the Feat text.  I wouldn't put "just trigger their Combat Form with Bottled Black and wait a couple of minute" as the canonical counter to Combat Forms just yet, however, that sort of thing could be considered an exploit...
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2021, 03:01:16 AM »
For real though, all the best mage PVP spells are still applicable with this update. Mages will be fine. Just keep spamming missiles, it's been the best "go-to" tactic for mages since launch. Sure, it's not flashy or inspired, but it always works.

IGMS shouldn't exist but we've created a world where it has to.

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2021, 03:21:26 AM »
For real though, all the best mage PVP spells are still applicable with this update. Mages will be fine. Just keep spamming missiles, it's been the best "go-to" tactic for mages since launch. Sure, it's not flashy or inspired, but it always works.

IGMS shouldn't exist but we've created a world where it has to.

As far as POTM's power scale goes for items, it's fairly weak in comparison to other servers. Mages function just find in other servers. Hell, I've played MORE than my fair share and never had a problem in PVP. If you gotta bust out the cheese, bust out the cheese and spam those missiles. But even then there's still tons of spells that are useful. I can't sing the praises for ice storm and polar ray loud enough when it comes to PVP. Now are there spells that can be added to help mages? Sure. Mordenkainen's Force Missile would be a good one to add in. Avasculate would be another good one. Bigby spells are also underutilized in PVP, sure they don't always work how you want, but nothing in PVP ever WILL. That's true for every class, not just mages. Hell, a lot of times I see mages NOT using spells cause they think "that's too cheap". This isn't Dark Souls. There is no honor code in PVP. Go for the win, by all means.

The versatility of a mage is always going to be the thing that gives them the edge in PVP, especially if they prepare a few dispels. I see all this talk about potion buffs being the end of mages in PVP and dungeons and all of those potions can be stripped away with a Lesser Dispel cast by a higher tier mage. There is a reason that all of the server's most successful MPCs were all wizards. Wizards are STRONG, but they also require the most skill.
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Maffa

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2021, 04:37:29 AM »
Id like to leave the nit and grit of the numbers on a side for a moment, and tackle the "everyone must be reliant to other classes to do anything" assumption.

Was I the only one that struggled to find available warders as a warrior once past the 12-14 lvl mark?
Past a certain point, the natural course of events will bring every character involved in IC politics and plots, and less to adventuring.

All this preoccupation about warriors becoming less reliant on every other class available in order to set foot in a cave is a bit laughable, since every other class already can and do. Id like to remember that I saw a 11lvl druid solo Invidians top to bottom, open all the chests and carry all the loot by himself (and got xp from it), and the same took upon himself to farm the desert troll chieftains, at least the non casters a few levels later, still solo. Mages can buff their summon and support them. Rogues and bards... well we already know. And honestly? Im glad for him/them.

And i think a bit of independence for when there is no one available to party, is a super healthy thing. Ive past too many hours sitting in MC watching anime on the other screen. And as a mage, having circles totally devoted to buff my mates and walk behind them while invisible to leech off xp is rather boring really.

And to add insult to injury, they cant even mentor younger players because if they get too close they syphon their xp away, whereas warders can play the good stepparents and buff them younglings 5 levels past their own power and wait for them outside while they happily rampage through the previously untouchable mobs. As a former warrior, i have been advised by other more experienced warriors to groomnurture casters and warders in order to create my own party, but I couldnt really do that either, all i could do was to give stuff away for free and hope in a bit of goodwill down the line.

Moreover, there's also the case for money. If warriors have to buy their magics in varnish or potion form, plus all those trinkets PVP mages are terrified about, they need to make money. The only viable way to make money for a warrior is to churn bounties in Vallaki and Port (well, only one in Port is really viable). 2 out of 5 dungeon raids, ive seen other party members take the most valuable items for themselves (because they could have uses for them), whereas warriors seldom find anything that can add on their equipment: we have a serious weight constraint, and weapons and armors just weight too much, whereas a mage or a UMD guy can always use one or seven more scrolls, and we cant even sell stuff high because we cant appraise. Warriors need to be able to have enough skills and power in us to be able to get in a dungeon below their level and clear it without putting a dent on their stocks.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 04:47:12 AM by Maffa »


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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2021, 04:52:16 AM »
I don't think anything in this HAK update will change the caster/noncaster PvE balance dramatically, Maffa, and especially not the soloing aspect of things. Some casters can solo some dungeons, but this isn't ideal for anyone else, and clearing lowbie dungeons for money is outright frowned upon, so I don't think it's important that fighters get better optimized to do that.

My first impression to summarize my too-many posts is that these feats appear to put pure fighters significantly ahead of other pure melee classes in almost every way.

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2021, 05:00:38 AM »
I dig the fighter buffs. It gives them a boost that still has a lot of counter plays where PvP is concerned, so they seem to get to shine where they should which is toe to toe engagements.

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2021, 05:09:41 AM »
Then if this is true, it's not a case of buffing the warriors more than debuffing every other class, isnt it. Warriors are the only one class that is that helpless alone. The other choice is investing resources (time and gold) in order to achieve whatever others can do for free, and risking on going on a deficit. more than once ive gone to a bounty hunt in port and burning +500 gold in potions only to find the bounty had already been taken in the meanwhile, whereas a mage my level couldve just cast a few spells, send a summon, take the bounty, and go his merry way/shrug about the bad luck, not a single gold out of his pocket.

As a warrior the only activity i could do alone was herbalism. I had arrived to a point with my smelting where i couldnt improve, because all metal more precious than steel is gated beyond mobs that are either super hard or actually cost/benefit inconvenient for anyone else. Dont come and tell me all other classes just sit around doing nothing unless they find a melee character to go with them, because thats what i as a warrior found myself doing more than I should have. Partying is something to strive for, not an imposition, and even if it were, it blatantly doesnt work.

And there is a money problem for warriors. They make the less money and they are the ones that need the most of it. Maybe there should be the case of making appraise unlocked for any class.


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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2021, 05:11:01 AM »
"everyone must be reliant to other classes to do anything" assumption.

This is not an assumption, but an intentional design. The server is not designed for solo play, and we are encouraged to party up.

All this preoccupation about warriors becoming less reliant on every other class available in order to set foot in a cave is a bit laughable, since every other class already can and do.

Soloing a dungeon isn't just setting foot in a cave.

I've expressed my distaste for soloing in general in the past. I'm not targeting fighters or saying mundanes should be worse at soloing than everyone else. I'm saying that I do not want to see any further updates that make dungeons easier to solo. Adventure should be an opportunity to roleplay with others, dungeons should be a group tackle, and everyone should be able to settle into a role in the party.

Your problem in finding good loot isn't just down to the lack of versatility in your class, but choosing to play a class that has no access to UMD, which is, of course, a choice. A very conscious choice that goes against the advice of the vast majority who suggest pure fighter is in fact currently not worth it.

It's also because there's not much good loot in the module that regularly drops. Casters don't really have it much better, considering the loot they like was made rarer (spell slot items particularly).

Crafting is where you get your equipment here, no matter who you are. If you are patient you may end up with some rare items but there's great gear for melee combat out there.

I'm not saying casters are underpowered and fighter is already the best class. I'm saying that the developers have, in the past, indicated they would rather nerf top tier classes than buff everyone up to their level. Considering the top tier classes can solo dungeons and some players do, it would be a disaster if everyone else was given the tools to do it as cost efficiently as casters dropping cloud spells on huge packs of enemies that can't even move.

At some point, you have no reason to seek a party besides courtesy. The abilities found in this update really do approach that level of power, considering savvy mundanes already do go solo for worthwhile & lucrative activities, even if they're not pure fighters.

I just don't think it's a healthy change as it is now and it could use some tweaking.

as a mage, having circles totally devoted to buff my mates and walk behind them while invisible to leech off xp is rather boring really.

That was what I said.

When this update goes through, why should I bother entering melee as a support class, when fighters (with the same level of gear and levels as me) will not need me fighting beside them anymore? Why shouldn't I just sit back and buff everyone else in the party, considering I'm having issues keeping up with spell slots as it is, and buffing myself would be truly redundant?

Damage spells get nerfed. Spell slots get nerfed. Caster gear becomes rarer. Fighters stay the same. With this update, they're getting so much better, they have little reason to tolerate us occupying the arena with them, besides courtesy, whereas right now, we do need them and they are valuable to us when they are in our parties just as we are valuable to them.


edit:

As a warrior the only activity i could do alone was herbalism. I had arrived to a point with my smelting where i couldnt improve, because all metal more precious than steel is gated beyond mobs that are either super hard or actually cost/benefit inconvenient for anyone else.

Steel is an endgame material for armour. People enchant steel. There are also mundanes who solo for adamantine.

This isn't to say you are the only one who has ever felt this way, or that casters aren't also soloing for these same purposes.

Dont come and tell me all other classes just sit around doing nothing unless they find a melee character to go with them, because thats what i as a warrior found myself doing more than I should have.

For me, yes, the odds of me going into a dungeon are low without a full party, unless I've specifically been asked to go and rescue someone and I know I can handle it because it's way below my level. I can only speak for myself. I know some people have found ways to solo dungeons just like I know ninjalooting is a big thing. But this is a module where the dungeons are balanced around party combat. It's not about what we can do while we're alone. And if you have anything around for this many years, people will find ways to break the balance even as they are nerfed and nerfed.

Some things that exist already are too strong, yes, this is true. But this thread is about the new changes. I am opposed to them in their current form because I believe they're too strong, not because I think players who choose fighter shouldn't get any cool abilities. I'm against the inflation of numbers for numbers' sake, knowing that everything in the module can be completed by a party already. A fighter can meaningfully contribute to the very hardest dungeons as it is.

I'll say it again, even at half power these feats would be a no-brainer. But I think that's a much better place to implement them, their full power is too much, and it rewards multiclassed mundanes more than it does the rare pure fighter who needs the boost more. Not that any character above level 16 needs any buffs, in my eyes.

Partying is something to strive for, not an imposition, and even if it were, it blatantly doesnt work.

Partying does work, and in a group of similar level is how one is supposed to experience the dungeons all across the module.

That it doesn't always work that way in practice doesn't mean the developers intended for it to be that way. Some dungeons have even been adjusted to make them more difficult to solo. While no one solution is perfect, this takes a lot of hard work from them and there is no question as to why they can't make the entire server solo proof overnight.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 06:34:47 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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Kiyosa

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2021, 06:06:25 AM »
Then if this is true, it's not a case of buffing the warriors more than debuffing every other class, isnt it. Warriors are the only one class that is that helpless alone.
*Waves in monk.* Yeah, there's worse, don't you worry about that.

I don't play a fighter but from what I understand the changes are a welcome buff.  If we really want PvE balance, then there should be no class able of solo'ing dungeons of the same as (or higher than even) the character's level, which, as already mentioned, isn't the case. Clerics and druids can mow through dungeons with ease. That said, balance can't be a achieved in a single HAK update, so I look forward to the future ones.

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2021, 06:41:21 AM »
In my tests, It seems to trigger the round after you roll initiative for anything. Taking fall damage for those gateway transitions triggered it for me. Getting stunned without attacking triggered it, etc.

OK, that's interesting, that contradicts the Feat text.  I wouldn't put "just trigger their Combat Form with Bottled Black and wait a couple of minute" as the canonical counter to Combat Forms just yet, however, that sort of thing could be considered an exploit...

In NWN terms, there's no way to actually filter the two short of making the feat a trigger at click ordeal, which would make it significantly more powerful. As of this moment, it's how the feats function and what this balance discussion is based on; It's in the same boat as being unable to interrupt the reading of an Ethereal Jaunt/GSanc scroll. Even if knocked down, you can't stop them from getting it off -- But also, you can't per se consider that an exploit. It makes scroll-readers 100% likely to escape, and native castings debatable. It's a game mechanic people have, over the years, maneuvered upon with plausible deniability. A stealther can as of current, make as much of a joke of the Fighter abilities as they can other limited use, short-duration abilities. Technically, so can a monk by just punch them then fleeing until they can come back and attack again.

I don't think anyone here thinks the class won't have power. It's obvious from developer efforts in implementing these stats in the first place, they want Fighters to have a reason to pure to 20 like Rogues, Bards, and Rangers. I am 100% fine with this, personally -- Fighter needs a potent reason like HiPS Banebow, or level 20 Bardsong/Cursesong combo, Barb level 20 Rage, etc, to stay the path.

What I wholly, and absolutely agree with is that I don't want to see Rogues dipping into Fighter, or Rogue/Fighter combinations utilizing the breadth of these and freely utilizing their UMD, Detection, and Stealth skills. Whatever the means, a pure Fighter should be able to beat its multi-class counterpart within reason. That, I wonder if the Developers have considered wholly and truly.

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2021, 07:14:05 AM »
Then if this is true, it's not a case of buffing the warriors more than debuffing every other class, isnt it. Warriors are the only one class that is that helpless alone.
*Waves in monk.* Yeah, there's worse, don't you worry about that.

I don't play a fighter but from what I understand the changes are a welcome buff.  If we really want PvE balance, then there should be no class able of solo'ing dungeons of the same as (or higher than even) the character's level, which, as already mentioned, isn't the case. Clerics and druids can mow through dungeons with ease. That said, balance can't be a achieved in a single HAK update, so I look forward to the future ones.

A level 16 fighter can solo pit fiends/balors with no gear (..well, they still need weapon enhancement, but everybody does) with these feats. An archer fighter with minimum gear, can drop pit fiends in a couple of rounds, with these feats. I don't think people realize how insanely powerful it is to have instant, undispellable buffs that give you a huge AB advantage over classes that don't have their own exclusive mechanics too.  My biggest concern with how powerful the feat chain buffs to focus / cha feats, is that non-fighter classes, trying to perform in the warrior role, have absolutely no chance to be anything close on par anymore. The different classes should be about bringing their own mechanics and gimmicks in a complimentary party role, and the utility offered by having regen, elemental resists, and DR in your kit is already a huge bonus compared to what the other classes get; giving them a vastly high AB lead over them too is what disrupts the interaction between classes and their numbers. My recommendations with the feats would be to approach with a start small, then grow as needed approach with the concerning balance of this feat chain.

Again. The feat chain(s) are insanely cool, the numbers are just too high right now and it offers all the utility with no drawbacks other than fighters having a reason to reset more frequently now.(And again, the biggest concern is the stacking AB of Combat Strike, Inspire Courage, and Rallying Strike only, I think the other things are in the aspect of balance that other classes have 'access' to these things in different ways, fighters just get it for free, several times a day. )

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2021, 07:17:51 AM »
Speaking as someone who rolled a pure fighter on what could loosely be described as a dare...

Yeah. This could be interesting.

My current build can, in my estimation, go toe to toe with my paladin despite being a few levels under her, and is expected to continue doing so until spells like Holy Sword start coming into play. Pierre is insanely susceptible to magic, and he has no way to buff himself without the potions I never buy, but from Vallaki to Port-a-Lucine, he has shown an ability to match Eliniel's best self-buffed AC, get a good chunk of her HP, and deal a good chunk of her average damage per round. Now that El's finally gained a third attack, the numbers have skewed somewhat in her favor, but at level 20, I think it plausible that he could still survive a duel with her or her sister - provided that they both had the same access to external buffs. (Also, he'll be able to fire a gun once per round.)

However, Pierre lacks El's ability to support her party with healing and other buffs, and is only capable of matching her endurance because he's spread his stats out to take literally every fighter feat except Overwhelming Critical, plus Agrippa, plus all the Parry boosts he could find. He's had to dump Wisdom to put all his other ability scores high enough for the assorted fighter feats. And the only justification I could think of for a duelist in chainmail was for him to be a Dementlieuse commoner with enough of an education to maybe sort of pass as an elegant swashbuckler in front of a less cultured audience.

A combat form build... TBH, it feels like a PrC, in that it gives a lot, takes a lot, and doesn't seem to make much sense if you don't go all-in on it.

It'll definitely have a lot of stopping power, in a number of interesting ways. Elemental immunities could be pretty potent - we're basically talking about blocking the first 20 points of any elemental attack, before accounting for items. +5 Universal saves are almost on par with a paladin's Divine Grace... until the paladin buffs their CHA to Mount Celestia. +5 AB/damage is also sort of like Divine Might, but better and worse at the same time. The AC, speed, and APR buffs are basically like a Haste spell, and I'd be surprised if the speed/APR weren't mutually exclusive with those of Haste. They've got an impenetrable stoneskin, and if I'm not mistaken about what adamantine armor does, they don't need it or its -2 DEX penalty anymore. And then there's the regeneration, like a stronger form of Sacred Healing.

Potent stuff. But it does have something of an opportunity cost.

Let's review the required feats and ability scores:

12 WIS
13 CON
13 DEX
12 STR
13 INT
Dodge
Resist Energy
Blind-fight
Toughness

Of those, Pierre's build (the only successful pure fighter build I know... and also the only pure fighter build I know, period) has:

16 STR/DEX/CON
14 INT
Toughness

So there'd necessarily be a fair bit of shifting around if we wanted to insert Combat Form into his. He needs to get 3 feats, and then he needs to get another 9 feats. He also needs to get up to 12 WIS. Can he do it?

He can lose all his gunslinging feats. That's 4 feats, 5 if he doesn't want any exotic weapons of any kind. The most plausible stat change is dropping CHA for WIS, which also takes care of all the CHA feats. That's 8-9 out of 12. Arguably, Back to the Wall is less useful if he already expects to receive its benefits during any battle it might be useful in, so maybe 9-10 feats. But now we're running low on feats. It could be argued that Diehard can be replaced by a Ring of Resilience (and, in fact, it currently is), that Natural Healer is a lot less useful when he's probably going to end each fight with pretty solid HP, and that Endurance is safe to drop once no other feats require it. If we argue all those points, then he's got all 12 feats taken care of, and can still have exotic proficiency.

This is where things get dicey. Gunslinging is fun, and a few good bullets could probably make short work of a lot of things. But putting guns aside, Pierre doesn't seem to be losing any of the things that made him so amazing in his early, pre-gun levels, and he doesn't seem to have lost that much in the late levels either (aside from no longer qualifying as a dashing swashbuckler). He's still got Armor Skin, he's still got Greater Specialization, Agrippa, Improved Knockdown, Improved Disarm... the works.

Is it a feasible build?

As a fighter, he gets 5 feats in his last 4 levels. He has only 3 feats that must be taken in that period. Very few of his early feats have been swapped out, so there's no risk of having an empty feat slot in the early levels. That seems to pass my test.

In summary: Adapting Pierre's build to use the combat form feats would cost him guns and leadership capabilities, in exchange for coming closer to Eliniel's damage and saves, and giving him the following advantages over her:

  • Automatic haste
  • +2 maximum AC (my projections previously put him as having a -3 maximum theoretical AC compared to her)
  • 20 elemental DR
  • Can't be flatfooted
  • Automatic True Seeing
  • Blindfight (unless El grabs that on a later level, not sure if she will)
  • Automatic indestructible Stoneskin
  • Automatic caster-only Sacred Healing, with extra +2 regen
  • Dodge
  • +10 Parry, to really increase the odds of riposting

(For comparison, these are the disadvantages I can think of right now: )

  • No Holy Sword means no +5 weapon with on-hit dispels
  • Divine Might adds around +10 virtually-unblockable damage per hit (on the other hand, Form!Pierre's auto-haste may or may not give him an extra attack over her, and a significantly higher chance of landing blows)
  • All of the advantages go away a lot faster than El's divine powers should run out (but only for the one encounter...)
  • Divine Grace is still about twice as strong as Combat Form
  • Sacred Healing heals the whole party
  • If relying on an external buffer, Divine Favor can offset most of the damage/AB buff

Yeaaaaah, maybe it's a little too potent. I love it, and my first thought was "I think I wanna roll up an elven warrior with that stuff", but now that I've had a chance to properly map out the feat requirements, I can see that it can act as a sizable buff to what is already a fairly effective alternative to Eliniel's reliance on divine blessings. On the other hand, there's still room for it to be a lot less of a buff in the right circumstances, mostly related to DM events or prolonged PvP encounters. It could really swing both ways - I know my opinion has while writing this!
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Khornite

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2021, 08:04:47 AM »

A level 16 fighter can solo pit fiends/balors with no gear (..well, they still need weapon enhancement, but everybody does) with these feats. An archer fighter with minimum gear, can drop pit fiends in a couple of rounds, with these feats.

I've played around with these feats quite a bit. I have to solo pit fiends almost every day on the normal server. These feats are NOT as strong as you are implying.
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mccarthy00

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2021, 02:55:03 PM »
if you invest 16 levels into pure fighter then you deserve to be this good with a weapon, All other classes are their own thing pure but up to now pure fighter was just a dip for feats, and AB

Khornite

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2021, 01:27:45 AM »
Wait...so with the new changes to Combat Strike, it is now a +1 to attack for every two feats. And it caps at 5. Which would need 10 feats. But only 9 feats exist. So the feat is now capped below it's cap just because there's not enough feats?
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APorg

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Re: Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2021, 05:29:49 AM »
Yeah, right now, there'd be no way to reach +5 on Combat Strike or Combat Defence.  They'd have to add a 10th Feat.

Still, I think it's a welcome change.  I still think Combat Strike right now will be a very attractive PvP tool to end-game Rogue/Fighters, even if they only invest 6 feats for +3/+3, but at least this is on par with things like Divine Favour from comparable Rogue/Cleric builds.
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