Hak Update 2_25 - First impressions

[Marcus Weyland]

With such enormous boosts to survivability I don't really know how you're supposed to kill one of these.
That 10/+3 is going to stack with flat DR from accessories AND adamantine DR (since addy's DR is (x)/+5)

Elemental damage is already unfavored because of gear giving resistances, so imagine how pointless it becomes with gear AND these superpowered elemental resistances.
+5 to saves can put a top level fighter not only out of range of saves-based effects being reliable against them, but out of the possibility of them ever working, no matter which save you're targeting, no matter what trap you're using or spell you're casting.

I guess you're just supposed to run away until they run out of Combat Focus rounds, so I  hope that 50% movement speed doesn't stack with Haste potions!

[APorg]

Yeah.  Also it's hard to outrun a bow.

Ow.  Ranged Combat Forms are utterly terrifying.

[Ophie Kitty]

With such enormous boosts to survivability I don't really know how you're supposed to kill one of these.
That 10/+3 is going to stack with flat DR from accessories AND adamantine DR (since addy's DR is (x)/+5)

Elemental damage is already unfavored because of gear giving resistances, so imagine how pointless it becomes with gear AND these superpowered elemental resistances.
+5 to saves can put a top level fighter not only out of range of saves-based effects being reliable against them, but out of the possibility of them ever working, no matter which save you're targeting, no matter what trap you're using or spell you're casting.

I guess you're just supposed to run away until they run out of Combat Focus rounds, so I  hope that 50% movement speed doesn't stack with Haste potions!

It doesn't 'stack' with adamantine DR. Since 10/+3 and adamantine DR are both 'damage reduction', only the highest applies first for a total of 10 damage reduce in any combination. It does stack with the 5/- accessories since that is damage resistance.

[Serina Rhea]

With such enormous boosts to survivability I don't really know how you're supposed to kill one of these.
That 10/+3 is going to stack with flat DR from accessories AND adamantine DR (since addy's DR is (x)/+5)

Thankfully damange reduction does not stack, it stacks with damage resist
Even with addy and whatever other items, it's still going to be 10/+4 and 3/+5 (assuming armor/shield ofc >-<)
So this one really is just like having a perma stoneskin, that's all

Elemental damage is already unfavored because of gear giving resistances, so imagine how pointless it becomes with gear AND these superpowered elemental resistances.
+5 to saves can put a top level fighter not only out of range of saves-based effects being reliable against them, but out of the possibility of them ever working, no matter which save you're targeting, no matter what trap you're using or spell you're casting.

Very much so yes >-<'
the resist thing has to go, like I showed in the numbers, it's enough to take 0 damage from Hellball...  and the saves need to be calmed down to just +4 will like in the sourcebooks

I guess you're just supposed to run away until they run out of Combat Focus rounds, so I  hope that 50% movement speed doesn't stack with Haste potions!

Thankfully everyone who is not a monk is capped at 150% movement speed at most by nwn

[Marcus Weyland]

It doesn't 'stack' with adamantine DR. Since 10/+3 and adamantine DR are both 'damage reduction', only the highest applies first for a total of 10 damage reduce in any combination. It does stack with the 5/- accessories since that is damage resistance.

Oh, thanks, I thought different DR levels stacked with one another.

But either way it makes you immune to tentacles even without a 5/ bludgeoning bauble. Granted with enchanted gear you would have been functionally immune to tentacles anyway.
Still unsure what the weakness of pure fighters is, with all this.

[BraveSirRobin]

Yeah.  Also it's hard to outrun a bow.

Ow.  Ranged Combat Forms are utterly terrifying.

The design of the feats suggests that the designer or the team wants fighters to be the undisputed best at hitting things and being in combat.

If that's the goal, this achieves that. It allows a fighter to outpace buffers, although they will run into the issue of extraneous buffs pushing them past the +20 cap.

I won't comment on whether that design is right or wrong to me. At the end of the day, we're not design by committee.

This is an interesting point.

I think the design goal of these feats is to make Fighters the best at combat for short bursts of time.  I think that's a very laudable design goal.  Making a Fighter go Beast Mode a few times per day sounds entirely appropriate and fun.

Right now, though, I think this overshoots the mark, this will allow high level Fighters to be in Beast Mode for a large number of rounds every fight, and they can do this probably in most if not all encounters.  In other words, it might allow a Fighter to be in Beast Mode all the time.

Respectfully, we're looking at level 20 Fighters. People who have no access to Bard's ability to ninjaloot, UMD, or spells. People who have no access to 90% of the quality of life and utility of arcane classes, and are laudable in PvP. It is triggered whenever combat starts, this can mean a Mink on the road, or aggro from spawns. Not only do most people not make it to level 20, by common consensus, but it means that it if you lower their ability to use this, they will only be moderately useful at level 20, when dungeoning has become a forlorn pursuit for little more than profit, which other people can do easily. By level 20, the majority of your PvE is Sithicus and Perfidus to find high-tier loot, or you're engaged in PvP. If it becomes useless up until that point, it loses its impact. Meanwhile, a level 20 Rogue suffers none of these issues, can self-fund from an early age and use whatever they come across.

I believe the intent of this is to make certain that Fighters are without parallel at doing what the class is intended, instead of being a side-trip for extra feats and APR. In-fact, they are able to achieve 5 APR without dual-wielding with these buffs, making them utterly undisputed and finally, an alternative to being a Rogue/Fighter which has been the standard fare for years.

With such enormous boosts to survivability I don't really know how you're supposed to kill one of these.
That 10/+3 is going to stack with flat DR from accessories AND adamantine DR (since addy's DR is (x)/+5)

Elemental damage is already unfavored because of gear giving resistances, so imagine how pointless it becomes with gear AND these superpowered elemental resistances.
+5 to saves can put a top level fighter not only out of range of saves-based effects being reliable against them, but out of the possibility of them ever working, no matter which save you're targeting, no matter what trap you're using or spell you're casting.

I guess you're just supposed to run away until they run out of Combat Focus rounds, so I  hope that 50% movement speed doesn't stack with Haste potions!

Will is still their bottom stat. You can use Hold Monster and IGMS as your leisure and that has been the primary mage vs. mundane meta for a while now. Elemental damage spells have always been lower tier PvP magic. Elemental resistances will not stack with gear, much like Addy won't stack with basic resistances.

[Khornite]

With such enormous boosts to survivability I don't really know how you're supposed to kill one of these.
That 10/+3 is going to stack with flat DR from accessories AND adamantine DR (since addy's DR is (x)/+5)

How to kill fighters: Missile spam go BRRRRRR

For real though, all the best mage PVP spells are still applicable with this update. Mages will be fine. Just keep spamming missiles, it's been the best "go-to" tactic for mages since launch. Sure, it's not flashy or inspired, but it always works.

[SardineTheAncestor]

By the base game's standards, many of these abilities would normally be unlocked with epic feats. I think they are too powerful for feats that are such an obvious choice that will also benefit multiclassed mundanes.

Fighters are already reliable and I'm glad to party with them as someone who plays two high level casters. This is no small adjustment, but a significant buff for all fighters, not just pures, pushing them past parity with 3/4 classes and other martials when it comes to cooperative play. Not only that, but this can't be dispelled. You could remove their feats for the levels where these become available, and bake them into the class, that's how good they are, there's just no reason to skip them.

I don't think this is necessary from a raw numbers point of view, having seen what pure mundane characters are capable of. What I don't like about it is that it doesn't really give them new options, nor does it incentivise teamwork, smart positioning, or any impressive gameplay tactic at all. These feats are not "special melee maneuvers and exotic weapons not available to any other character." So they don't introduce new playstyles or new abilities so much as they reinforce what we already know works best.

I'd also like to point out that these do have a higher potential uptime than cleric/paladin short-term buffs, in most practical situations, including multiple uses of extended prayer/battletide/divine favor, because you have to consider the downtime inherent to the module's design -- most dungeons will have time for the fighter to get his combat focus off cooldown because of traps, travel time between packs of enemies, and so on.

I did want to see changes to fighter that add depth to their gameplay. But this doesn't really add depth, and it seems like too much of an upward adjustment -- this much mileage, per feat, on a class with so many to burn -- seems like a bit much.

As someone who plays two high level supports, I like to give others in my party important short-term buffs and healing to help them hit more, cause more damage, and keep them in the fight. But what I can give simply pales in comparison to this, and most fights just aren't long enough for me to wait until their combat focus expires to use those buffs. Their AB would be so high they can only miss on a 1 anyway and that's their final attack, of the 6 they get.

tl;dr
I think the investment is too low for a class that has so many feats.
I think the gameplay application is awkward and the cooldown period is odd.
I think this devalues support classes, who already popularly felt they had nothing better to do than buff themselves to help in melee and throw some healing around from time to time.

I'll wait and see, but I think it needs adjusting down. Even at half effectiveness these feats would still be a no-brainer.

Keep in mind that Regen triggers more than once per round,

It only comes in once per round, but you can stack it depending on source. Say you have Sacred Healing and a regen potion/spell, that will stack. I assume this will stack with some other kinds of regeneration. I'm a fan of regen so I am happy with that.

[Revenant]

If we're going by the standards of what's available as an epic level character, a kitted level 20 PotM character could stand up, likely favorably against level 30 Arelith characters. Legitimately, hitting epic levels of saves and feats (although not literal epic feats) is an expected and intended design feature here.

As I said before - this is a change seemingly intended to make people play more pure class fighters, a la Pathfinder pure class bonuses. It is intended to make them the undisputed best at fighting. It achieves that. If you want to tilt it more towards pure class, shove Combat Strike (the most appealing bonus - yes, even more than the extra attack) behind level 16.

The optimal statline is going to be, what - 15 Strength, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Wis, 14 Int, 12 Cha? Something like that, that is very hasty tablecloth math based on personal opinion of what can be skipped and what's vital. That's not unreasonable, it leaves utter RP versatility to portray yourself as almost anything you wish. You might have a few less standing AB and carryweight than a strength pumped barbarian (maybe, depending on the build) but you'll easily catch up in combat and you'll be less reliant on outside buffs.

If the devs want fighters to be combat monsters, this absolutely achieves it. The ten round downtime between activations is meaningful and encourages fighters to push their parties to keep moving to fully utilize every single round of their Focus.

[Marcus Weyland]

Will is still their bottom stat. You can use Hold Monster and IGMS as your leisure and that has been the primary mage vs. mundane meta for a while now. Elemental damage spells have always been lower tier PvP magic. Elemental resistances will not stack with gear, much like Addy won't stack with basic resistances.

So a level 20 Fighter is 6 Will by default, and with enchanted gear that's..

Spoiler: show

+2 uni from chest
+1 uni from gloves
+1 uni from helm
+1 uni from boots
+2 uni from neck
+2 uni from rings
+1 uni from LoH (and +1 will from Strong Soul if they're human and doubled up, but that's uncommon)
+1 Will from Disciplined Mind
+2 Will from Iron Will
+4 Will (vs mind affecting) from Scorpion's Resolve

We can feasibly get 21 Will as an unbuffed level 20 fighter with four of our massive number of feats. If it's not enough you can use Talon bracers for an extra will, or a Heart of Ice for +2 more Will as compared to the Red Scarab, for 24 total. There's that one cheap belt that gives another +2 vs mind affecting for 26, if you KNOW you're going to be up against a mage. A buffed level 20 sorcerer casting Mass Hold Monster can reach a DC of 28, or 32 with greater spell focus. Slap another +5 universal saves on that fighter and you're past where any mage can touch you, even without buffs.

[Khornite]

If the devs want fighters to be combat monsters, this absolutely achieves it. The ten round downtime between activations is meaningful and encourages fighters to push their parties to keep moving to fully utilize every single round of their Focus.

The other thing to point out is that the uses of these buffs is going to go a lot faster than people think considering that they appear to activate during ALL combat. So that random mink that runs up and bites you is going to consume one of those uses.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Legitimately, hitting epic levels of saves and feats (although not literal epic feats) is an expected and intended design feature here.

This is news to me. I thought they wanted to adjust the powerful classes down, not buff the "weakest" classes, certainly not make the module's challenges any easier than they supposedly already are.

From the numbers provided here and elsewhere, the upward adjustment is just too much in my eyes. I have no reason to believe fighters are in need of this much of a buff after watching them consistently perform very well.

Also, downtime between combat periods is only going to work in the fighter's favor while his support's more limited buffs tick down. Even if you are really rushing through the dungeon and completing it in one rest or close to that.

I don't find their automatic activation meaningful, the cooldown is alright but having no control over when you use it? Sure, rush as hard as possible, that doesn't get criticised enough already.

[Revenant]

I do not think it is about whether a competently played character performs well. It is likely purely down to their popularity. Consider the Voodan, or the Hexblade, who suffer both from a recent release and a lack of 16+ years of collected wisdom regarding the play and building of. They are both powerful classes, but they're going to suffer in popularity and see buffs - like Voodan recently.

How many more pure fighters other than Red do you know? It's rare. It's not because Red's useless.

[Khornite]

How many more pure fighters other than Red do you know? It's rare. It's not because Red's useless.

He's not a pure fighter.

Hi, I play Red.

[Revenant]

Case in point, then! He's certainly one of the few that have the perception of being a pure fighter.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I've seen several mundane characters at high level and some have shown their sheets. They can stand up to things that would gib my character without using special stuff like shadow shield, abyssal might, and so on - but then they use those abilities and it's a new ball game.

It's popular to say 3/4s are overpowered in melee, but I watch mundanes shred all the while. I play supports so I can help them thrive, but it's not like I don't notice that they are free to move around while I'm stuck casting my self buffs, feeling like I'm wasting their time by making them wait on me, because even then, they cause higher damage per hit than I do, they crit more often and for more, shrug off spells that would put me in ghost timeout. I watch them fight on while I am exhausted and suffering from total spell failure. I watch them swing twice in their initial flurry without haste and make more effective use of improved knockdown. Buffed identically, side by side, I watch mundanes go to barely injured when I drop to badly wounded from the exact same non-telegraphed area attacks, and fight for a while longer while I am doing anything I can to get back in there and heal them or help them finish a kill or two, if that, before the same thing happens again.

I haven't been talking about pure fighters but I've known a few and they were not to be babysat. I don't think we should buff fighters this much but I would like to see some adjustments made. That said, we're not buffing pure fighters anyway, many of these feats apply to multiclass fighters. Like I wrote in an earlier post, even half the effect of these feats would be a big win for them. I would like to see fighters become a bit more independent, sure, more than they already are. But I'm a stickler for teamwork based mechanics and I want to see more like the charisma feats. So much of the combat is done at breakneck speeds and there are so many things I need to do to be a good support but I can easily be redundant already. The same I cannot say for the mundanes I have partied with, in balanced groups where we all got our fair share of buffs.

[Khornite]

Case in point, then! He's certainly one of the few that have the perception of being a pure fighter.

That's because a lot of class abilities for melee classes are manifested in ways that only the player themselves can see. Makes figuring out people's builds VERY tricky. But yeah, if I went pure fighter on that build, I'd actually be giving up a LOT of power.

[BraveSirRobin]

There are no pure fighters on PoTM, you mostly see Rogue/Fighters, because they need the extra flexibility due to Fighter being a joke as a pure class. These threads always give me anxiety, mostly because a lot of wrong information can be tossed out here (even by myself) and taint public perception for the worst. Voodan wasn't really -- That bad of a class, but they overreacted in debuffing it due to public hysteria. Now they are buffing it up again. Fighters should be the undisputed masters at combat, it's all that they have going for them.

This seems to work just fine for it, honestly. You only have 10 uses at level 20, which is fine --- Because level 20 content is far more lengthy than level 5 content. Which is part of the server design. Perfidus and Sithicus are prime examples of this, and it does not trigger at-will, but when you've entered combat, which is caused by being forced to roll off on initiative. It's easy to exploit, and easy to toy with.

In PvP, any stealth class with some bottled black and a sling can falsely trigger the ability. In PvE, it doesn't really matter -- Fighters aren't going to be solo'ing content due to the reliance on arcane buffs still. They will be more effective than anyone else as a frontliner, however, even Paladins. That's fine -- Paladins also shouldn't be better at melee than Fighters. They have other advantages, such as excellent saves, disease immunity, fear immunity, ridiculous statlines from self-buffing. High AC, high damage. Putting a Fighter on level with a Paladin is fine, in my book -- They need raised up in the world.

[Phantasia]

There are no pure fighters on PoTM,

This is untrue. I know of at least two, one played very actively in fact.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I'd like to just say that I haven't been talking about pure fighters, as rare as they are. One of fighter's strengths is that it can multiclass to diversify and lose nothing. That isn't a bad thing. Other classes have to make serious sacrifices to come near them and try to do what they do, that was the point of my previous post.

I'm talking about mundane characters in general. Buff pure fighters, sure. This update is not only, or even primarily, for pure fighters, though.

[APorg]

it means that it if you lower their ability to use this, they will only be moderately useful at level 20

"Moderately" useful?  At level 16, 8 uses of these incredible bursts is utterly game-changing and strong.  Nor is the benchmark Bards or Rogues.  It's Paladins and Barbarians, neither of whom have much ability to self-fund, either.

Fighters are weak, but they're not so weak that they need 10+ rounds of these incredible buffs per 2 levels.

Just run the numbers:

* a level 16 Barbarian with CON 14 and Extended Rage gets 5x15=75 rounds of Rage, gets less effect from their rage, and moreover is far more feat-starved.
* a level 16 Fighter spending just 5 out of their 22 or 23 Feats can +5 to all saves, 10/- against all elements, +5 Dodge AC, 10/+4, +5 AB/damage, 5 Regeneration and 3/-  for 8x14=112 rounds and still have plenty of Feats to spare to buy up extra damage Feats.
* a level 16 Paladin with CHA 18 and Extra Turning can get 15 to 17 Turn Undead attempts, but has to use 2 to activate both Divine Might/Shield for +6 to +8 AC/damage, so really is looking at somewhere like 8*7 = 56 rounds on average.  Yes, a Paladin has spells, but a Paladin also needs spells far more than the Fighter, and is much more vulnerable to dispels.

This is a new burst ability that will stand head and shoulders above the rest.  IMO both the lengths of the individual bursts and the number available per day are too high.

[APorg]

In PvP, any stealth class with some bottled black and a sling can falsely trigger the ability.

No, the ability is triggered when the Fighter attacks.

[Revenant]

it means that it if you lower their ability to use this, they will only be moderately useful at level 20

"Moderately" useful?  At level 16, 8 uses of these incredible bursts is utterly game-changing and strong.  Nor is the benchmark Bards or Rogues.  It's Paladins and Barbarians, neither of whom have much ability to self-fund, either.

Fighters are weak, but they're not so weak that they need 10+ rounds of these incredible buffs per level.

Just run the numbers:

* a level 16 Barbarian with CON 14 and Extended Rage gets 5x15=75 turns of Rage, gets less effect from their rage, and moreover is far more feat-starved.
* a level 16 Fighter spending just 5 out of their 22 or 23 Feats can +5 to all saves, 10/- against all elements, +5 Dodge AC, 10/+4, +5 AB, 5 Regeneration and 3/-  for 8x14=112 rounds and still have plenty of Feats to spare to buy up extra damage Feats.
* a level 16 Paladin with CHA 18 and Extra Turning can get 15 to 17 Turn Undead attempts, but has to use 2 to activate both Divine Might/Shield for +6 to +8 AC/damage, so really is looking at somewhere like 8*7 = 56 rounds on average.  Yes, a Paladin has spells, but a Paladin also needs spells far more than the Fighter, and is much more vulnerable to dispels.

This is a new burst ability that will stand head and shoulders above the rest.  IMO both the lengths of the individual bursts and the number available per day are too high.

People seem to believe that a Paladin that spends time fully buffing (Eagle's, Bull's, Aura of Glory, Splendor, Divine Favor for four actions at minimum, throw sacred haven and/or holy sword on if it pleases you) should be worse in melee than a fighter, because of their ability to have saves and the like. That's reasonable from a perspective.

Important to realize that the Barbarian's 75 Turns of Rage translates to 750 Rounds. Always important to translate everything to the lowest common denominator. Amended below. Pardon me for not double checking!

Paladin's bonus is having 56 consecutive rounds, theoretically, if they need both AC and Damage - double that, if only one or the other. The fighter can go for ~18, then needs to take 10 off (for the 60 second cooldown). Certainly the undisputed king of the ring, still.

[APorg]

Sorry, I mistyped.  The Barbarian has 75 rounds of rage.  And has to cope with Fatigue in between.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Or just use a lesser resto. But this update gives the fighter less reason to rely on his teammates, and speaking of overfarmed potions everyone drinks like candy, the heal potion hanging in the balance gives the fighter less ways to help his teammates in kind. That is what I don't like about it.