Heal Potions

[Relapse]

As action has been taken to prevent their crafting, I think it's a step in the wrong direction. They offer a degree of risk/control to high level adventuring, a preparation that when things go really bad there's a real chance that you have something within your control that might see you through, not every class is a wizard or cleric with Ethereal Jaunt on a hotkey. They're not, nor will they ever be a replacement for clerics, nor are they a guarantee especially when capped at 150hp. 

There are several IG status affects that will stop the use of potions, stuns, knockdowns, holds etc. If potion use is a problem perhaps these can be investigated.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I don't really use the things myself, I prefer tactics where they aren't necessary.

I just think removing rebound/survival options is an intriguing move, especially in a game where 1 shot kills without any warning and/or sudden bursts of massive damage are as prevalent as lag and glitches.

Curious to see what's next on the chopping block and what the actual end goal is. To make the server a more fatal place? To mitigate the power of hoarding oldies? To rebalance the server so that people don't feel like they need them, even if they aren't strictly necessary? Whatever it is, this potion is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Fungal Artillery]

The problem of heal potions was never with pve, the problem is pvp. When someone has all their endgame gear and everything that comes with being an endgame character, it becomes especially difficult to challenge them when they are sitting on 76 Potions of Heal. Spellcasters especially can dish out only a limited amount of damage due to their spell slots, and saves can be pumped up to a point where save based spells are unlikely to connect.

The potion of heal is just unhealthy to the server as a whole. It should have never existed on a server with this sort of low end item magic level.

[Maffa]

This might be one of those numerous cases where I completely misunderstand the topic at hand, but I have some difficulty to understand why the actions of a few outliers that refuse to closure their character have to affect the whole server.

Potions and varnishes are the poor man's version of spells and wards, the only things that still make the mundane classes somewhat relevant. In order to make a potion or a varnish you need to grind and travel and toil, you dont go to sleep and find the spell pronto in your head.

The problem isn't the potions, the problem is that they are around since forever and have so much of so many. I do not have a solution for that, players have the last say on their characters, but exactly like fines are a way to punish the poor and allow free reign to the rich (getting political!), solutions that choke the creation from the source or it's use rather than the stockpile itself only hit the newer characters with little to no stockpile than those that already have 99 stacks of everything in port a lucine's bank. The only thing such a solution will have is to widen the divide between the have's and have not's.

[Quartermaster]

The problem of heal potions was never with pve, the problem is pvp. When someone has all their endgame gear and everything that comes with being an endgame character, it becomes especially difficult to challenge them when they are sitting on 76 Potions of Heal. Spellcasters especially can dish out only a limited amount of damage due to their spell slots, and saves can be pumped up to a point where save based spells are unlikely to connect.

The potion of heal is just unhealthy to the server as a whole. It should have never existed on a server with this sort of low end item magic level.

I've played on many servers with PVP. Many of them have a no use of potions rule while engaging in PVP which eliminates the "problem" some see the heal potion as producing here.

[Fungal Artillery]

I've played on many servers with PVP. Many of them have a no use of potions rule while engaging in PVP which eliminates the "problem" some see the heal potion as producing here.

That would sadly not work as well here, because there are potions like Haste or Clarity that may be necessary for a mundane character to have a fair chance against say a Bard. Being so low magic on items, PoTM is very buff centric.

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Further more, a rule to prevent the use of certain item in certain situation is not a good way to fix a balance problem, it also feels very disruptive for a character to not be allowed to use a tool he has just because he is fighting someone else.

[Revenant]

A cooldown on their usage, while it may feel game-y, would be one solution. After all, as exemplified by the loud popping noise of visitors to the Plane of Positive Energy, too much positive energy too fast is a very bad thing.

[Ophie Kitty]

I think one thing to consider is that the removal of them means that those that already exist in game are still an advantage over those who don't have any, and the value of them drastically increase as well, as with any grandfathered item. If the complaint was people spamming heal potions, the people that do that still have stacks of them, they just have to be more liberal since they can't make them anymore.

[JustMonika]

I'm concerned that rarifying a commonly in existance item will have just created a huge amount of wealth for those PCs already in posession of them [PC's who likely didn't need to become any richer].

I agree that forbidding drinking potions during PvP is probably the easy soultion [If that's where the concerns come from] but certainly the most jarring IC. [Why can I drink this while fighting NPC vampires, but not AMPC vampires? Why can I drink it while fighting Waifs in the Ouvier, but not Waifs in the Mist Camp?]

A limitation on the frequency of drinking them [No more than one per turn, for example] by way of a mandated cooldown would seem to be a good soultion to their overuse.

Equally rather than pumping the DC up to high levels, you could seriously reduce the ease of finding the required ingredience - Say by making the required plant or thing only spawn in low numbers in high teir dungeons. This would seriously cut down on the new number that were able to enter the market - But would certainly jack up their price and so ultimately only favour well to-do PCs.

[MAB77]

The crafting of Heal potions is being disabled until a better alternative is identified.

As written, only their crafting is being disabled for the time being. Those that have some in stock can still use them. We are hard at work to identify a more balanced alternative in their use. That said we do not want to remove them entirely. We are evaluating options and implementation feasabilities such as possibly a cooldown period between uses.

[evil.bat]

With the removal of that, it leaves more reason for players in need of those potions to do <FOIG> content, which sadly might interfere with lower level characters. I agree that potions of Heal are notorious for their abuse in PvP, I mean even I'm guilty of that on other servers. If you have enough of them, and plenty of AC to boot, you could pretty much attrition almost anyone just by using your gold pieces.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I think the cooldown is the best idea for this particular item.

But I still think this is treating the symptom rather than the problem. The problem is, but does not begin with hoarding, there are deeper causes than that, and the deepest one is not exclusively those characters who have been around for a long time. There is a cause for that, too, and it goes beyond player preference.

You might consider crafting to be a "problem system" because it is one of many server conventions that heavily incentivises sticking to a character for so long that becoming a fully enchanted, well-equipped high level is even a realistic goal, on a server where we expect people to just roll over and accept the crit-to-corpsehide treatment if they get ganked because their potions shouldn't save them. It's a very dissonant design. I'm neither pleased with the fixation on death being so abundant it's cheap, nor the buck high levels get when many are conscious of the criticism and so try to stay away from low levels, until they too are so high level they are fated to be shunned for things they didn't do.

Limiting this potion with a cooldown has potential to be a meaningful, positive change, but it will not solve that problem. The dialogue has to stay open.

This thread is just about this potion, that's true, but please consider the consequences of the crafting system as it is, along with other fixtures of the server just like it that are designed in such a way that hoarding and "playing closure free" are attractive options to many, not that their choice of playstyle should hinder anyone else's roleplay. They're not griefing, they're just following the path of least resistance.

[Khornite]

The crafting of Heal potions is being disabled until a better alternative is identified.

As written, only their crafting is being disabled for the time being. Those that have some in stock can still use them. We are hard at work to identify a more balanced alternative in their use. That said we do not want to remove them entirely. We are evaluating options and implementation feasabilities such as possibly a cooldown period between uses.

Just a suggestion. Here's what I'd do.

>Jack the DC on healing potions up to 70.
>Currently they require 8 herbs to make (two of each ingredient). Make it three of each ingredient.
>Make Mist Weed as hard to get as Lurid Mildew. You can get a full bag of mist weed in about 20 minutes if lucky. Adding more variety to mist herbs would achieve this instead of the limited selection there is now.
>Make Gold Aster a spring only herb instead of a spring/summer herb.
>Make Crawling Ivy a summer/fall herb instead of a spring/summer/fall herb.

As it stands now, herbalism is effectively mastered at 62, the potions with a DC of 70 are not as useful as the ones in the 45-62 range. Drop energy buffer and etheral visage potions down to 62 would fill the leveling gap created by shifting heal potions to 70.

This makes them not only rarer, but much harder to make, but still keeps them in rotation for high level characters that don't benefit from lesser healing alternatives.

[Maffa]

Just follow the logic of it.

• healing potions give unfair advantage in PVP to those that have stacks of
• solution: make it harder to brew

why.
PVP is the interest of few, older characters, which have stacks of everything, including heal potions.
Heal potions are usable by everyone in any situation, including PVE, because healing on the fly during battle without a party view is quite hard and you need a backup.
Older character will be the only ones able to overcome any limitations you plan to enforce, thus you will be back to having the same problem.

Want to level the playing field? Have a robbery to Port's bank.

[Fungal Artillery]

You might consider crafting to be a "problem system" because it is one of many server conventions that heavily incentivises sticking to a character for so long that becoming a fully enchanted, well-equipped high level is even a realistic goal, on a server where we expect people to just roll over and accept the crit-to-corpsehide treatment if they get ganked because their potions shouldn't save them. It's a very dissonant design. I'm neither pleased with the fixation on death being so abundant it's cheap, nor the buck high levels get when many are conscious of the criticism and so try to stay away from low levels, until they too are so high level they are fated to be shunned for things they didn't do.

Yes, there is a dissonance with the game design of the systems and the expectations of the playerbase when it comes to conflict. We are expected to put countless hours in to a character by the systems in place and all that time and story investment can be robbed from you in a single PvP encounter that leads to corpsehiding, possibly forever. With no regard to fullfillment of plots or character arcs.
It is therefore understandable that a lot of investment goes in to avoiding that fate. Players will do whatever it is in their power and within the rules to make sure that their character survives, until such a time when they are satisfied to let go of the character. This is where the Potion of Heal comes in. The people will hoard it, because it is in their best interest to do so.

In my honest opinion however, we put too much emphasis on Closures on PoTM. There is no inherent value to character closures. There is no valor or great impact that a closure has on its own. The value of a closure comes with the story it tells and the stories it contributes to. If a character continues to provide story value to the player and those he plays with, there is no need to closure them. Their story isn't done.

There are characters that are closured before their time, just as there are characters whose story arcs have ended and who have no compelling direction to go to anymore.

Making gameplay changes to police shorter lifespan characters is in my opinion an extreme position, as even at a table of 6 players, you have 6 different ways of enjoying the game. We have hundreds of players. That's hundreds of ways to enjoy the game. We should concentrate on the aspects where conflict between player characters directly affects one another's play, instead of going after "how" they play.

Limiting this potion with a cooldown has potential to be a meaningful, positive change, but it will not solve that problem. The dialogue has to stay open.

A cooldown would be a compromise when it comes to Potion of Heal, however personally I would prefer it to simply not be craftable anymore. In time that would make it disappear all together.

[Siobhan]

In the PvP I've been part of, heal potions are a double edged sword. On one hand, its a lot of healing. But on the other, you lose a round to standing still.

I think the idea that PvP is a static duel atop a hill is where this idea comes from that heal potions are overpowered.

In my experience, characters run to leave range or spells. Then dip back to get a few hits, then disengage. Losing a round & potential attacks of opportunity to a potion is a heavy risk to take.

I support Heal potions being more difficult to craft with rarer ingredients, but I don't think their inclusion as a craftable is inherently problematic.

[Kiyosa]

The fact alone that the brewing of the Heal potion has been halted for the entirety of the server's population, merely because a minority of PvPers seems to have an issue with it, is in all honesty confusing to me. Not only because I couldn't see the arguments of said minority to begin with, but also because it apparently takes only so few to air their grievances in order to have the majority impacted. There are about 140 players on the server and, unless I missed the deluge of complaints about this potion, only a handful have brought up objections. I understand that it's important to listen to the player base, yet I can't help but feel that the percentage of such should be kept in mind.

That said, I'm not sure there are any concrete suggestions as to how to fix the actual issue here, (if there really is one to begin with, that is) without affecting both PvE and PvP alike. Raising the DC to 70 would make its availability a little less by default, I wager, but to change an already demanding, ressource-heavy, recipe to an even more demanding one would be overkill, in my opinion. A cooldown of say 15-20 seconds may also be an idea, since I imagine that impacting PvP a lot more than PvE, where one can simply up and run, exiting the cave/temple/whatevs to ensure they're no longer pursued, unlike in PvP.

[Khornite]

In the PvP I've been part of, heal potions are a double edged sword. On one hand, its a lot of healing. But on the other, you lose a round to standing still.

I think the idea that PvP is a static duel atop a hill is where this idea comes from that heal potions are overpowered.

This. Let's not forget to mention that the one round where you're standing still to chug a potion puts you at flat footed AND the potion provokes an attack of opportunity. So not only are you easier to hit, but the attacker ALSO gets their sneak attack damage. Most builds can easily out damage a heal potion in these situations. I've seen it. I've experienced it first hand. I've even seen it happen with MPCs chugging healing items mid-fight.

Most PVP I see isn't straight up brawls, but ganks. We've all seen countless threads on the subject of ganks and it's easy to see that ganks are majority of PVP on the server. In all the PVP I've ever been in, I've only seen one instance where heal potions were drank. As Siobhan said, PVP is not the same as the sparring matches on the hill in the mist camp. It's usually going to be one person rushing another and not even giving their target a chance to respond.

[MAB77]

I read and see a lot of false assumptions as to the potential reasons why we might have disabled the crafting of heal potions, and a pointless debate into things that did not even factor in our decision.

Let me be clear. It never was about PvP. PvP is a rather rare occurrence and there would be little reasons for us to act against heal potions just for those occasional circumstances.

It's a combination of several other factors, including but not limited to, the fact we often witnessed overreliance on heal potions over healers within a party, the ease with which the components are gathered by some, the fact that those hoarding those potions do not even require them to do well anyway, etc. The figures do not lie. Heal potions are disruptive on many levels. We did not need to add PvP to the list.

Now, we do not seek to have heal potions harder to make per say, but we wish to make them rarer. We'd also wish to have them more evenly distributed among players. It's the mid level players way more than the high levels ones that requires them.

If you wish to provide ideas as to how it could be done be my guess. But debating the decision, especially on false premises is pointless.

[Maffa]

raise the weight.

But also, please understand that relying on other ppl healing you during fights is not easy. Granted, "normal" ppl dont need stacks of 20 healing potions.

[Siobhan]

Now, we do not seek to have heal potions harder to make per say, but we wish to make them rarer. We'd also wish to have them more evenly distributed among players. It's the mid level players way more than the high levels ones that requires them.

If that's the goal, then I believe rarer ingredients that spawn in those mid-level areas and a lower crafting DC would do that. More herbalists could make them, and the power balance would shift into the hands of the gatherers rather than the crafters. Given that anyone can be a gatherer, I would expect them to be more spread out as a result.

[Kiyosa]

I read and see a lot of false assumptions as to the potential reasons why we might have disabled the crafting of heal potions, and a pointless debate into things that did not even factor in our decision.

Let me be clear. It never was about PvP. PvP is a rather rare occurrence and there would be little reasons for us to act against heal potions just for those occasional circumstances.

It's a combination of several other factors, including but not limited to, the fact we often witnessed overreliance on heal potions over healers within a party, the ease with which the components are gathered by some, the fact that those hoarding those potions do not even require them to do well anyway, etc. The figures do not lie. Heal potions are disruptive on many levels. We did not need to add PvP to the list.

Now, we do not seek to have heal potions harder to make per say, but we wish to make them rarer. We'd also wish to have them more evenly distributed among players. It's the mid level players way more than the high levels ones that requires them.

If you wish to provide ideas as to how it could be done be my guess. But debating the decision, especially on false premises is pointless.

The assumptions tend to be made when no reasons are given, although the action taken now makes sense with the ones given here. I don't necessarily agree with the reasons, since the groups I personally am part of can't forego a healer for Heal potions in order to complete a dungeon, unless each group member is willing to pay 50-60k worth of Heal potions. Even so, it may be the case in other groups, so I won't claim them to be invalid. Raising the DC should definitely be something to look into, because anyone can max herbalism without necessarily having to be high level. Replacing the one herb that is easily attainable by high levels alone with one that's accessible to mid-levels as well, might also be an idea, so that everyone has the chance to get their hands on it.

Edit: Also, should a major change occur in the usage of mist weed, it'd be nice to know beforehand so that those of us having stored significant amounts of it can burn them before said change takes place.

[Khornite]

Let me be clear. It never was about PvP. PvP is a rather rare occurrence and there would be little reasons for us to act against heal potions just for those occasional circumstances.

While the staff's reasons for this change are not related to PVP, the discussion is being brought up by players all the same though, with the intent of airing their concerns about them perhaps hoping the potions would be changed because of those concerns. I believe this is the source of the assumptions.

It's a combination of several other factors, including but not limited to, the fact we often witnessed overreliance on heal potions over healers within a party, the ease with which the components are gathered by some, the fact that those hoarding those potions do not even require them to do well anyway, etc. The figures do not lie. Heal potions are disruptive on many levels. We did not need to add PvP to the list.

The issue (at least in my experience) isn't that people are wanting to use potions over healers, but rather a shortage of healers. More often than not, I spend 2 to 3 hours waiting for a healer to log on before going to a dungeon. Some of us just bite the bullet and use potions cause we don't have a healer around that day or have a cleric/druid who used all their spell slots on buffs. Higher level tanks are going to favor them over Cure Critical potions cause we need less of them. One heal potion heals about the same as three Cure Criticals, maybe even FOUR Cure Criticals if the rolls are poor. On a server that's as resources heavy as POTM, every square of inventory space is important, every pound carried is important. So a stack of Heal potions over two or three stacks of Cure Criticals is the better option for the playing field we find ourselves in. If I have to heal 300 points of damage, am I going to chug fifteen Cure Criticals, or three Heal potions?

It's not like relying on healing potions in general is an attractive option, but when waiting around for five hours for a friendly healer to log on is a common issue, we just make do with what we have. Trust me, if I could have a healer follow me everywhere, I'd never use a potion again. Why waste the resources? Why invest 10,000 worth of healing potions to get 5,000 (if lucky) in loot from a dungeon?

Now, we do not seek to have heal potions harder to make per say, but we wish to make them rarer. We'd also wish to have them more evenly distributed among players. It's the mid level players way more than the high levels ones that requires them.

Wholeheartedly think this is a good idea. Problem is though, the mist weed is a component that is easier gotten by higher level characters due to how dangerous the mists can be. Hell, I've seen fully warded level 20 mages get stomped by greater mist horrors when things go south. Nightwalkers are a terrifying thing to run across if not prepared. And those illithid hunting parties? I've seen them drop 150 points of unresistable damage on me in one round. And then there's ooze city [PTSD intensifies], the single most terrifying and dangerous location on the server. Last time I went in there I got slapped for 110 damage. On a non-critical hit. 110. No, not 10 and 11 closely together. 110.

So with that said, distribution of these items is going to rely still on higher level characters selling them off to low and middle level characters as long as mist weed is a component. Now a way to get around this is to maybe take the other healing herbs (woundwart, viccar's caps, fey leaves, vistan's tears) and have maybe four of each making one heal potion? Could also have mist weed grow OUTSIDE of the mists near mist banks, that would help distribute the potions to low and mid level parties as they don't have to then gather a group and trek though the mists.

Another option could be to change the recipe to being THREE Mildew, THREE Gold Aster and THREE Crawling Ivy, that takes it to 9 herbs, one more than needed. It makes the potions more accessible to low and mid groups, makes the herbs more contested (so harder to acquire) and removes the most common of the components (mist weed, which grows all year round and you can easily farm up a hundred mist weed in a day). You can then take this one step further and make Aster only grow in spring and ivy only grow in summer and fall.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I don't think making anything harder (reaD: more tedious) to farm is a good idea. It's just going to exacerbate the hoarding issue and cause people to spend more time grinding away instead of roleplaying something more meaningful to them, and it definitely won't make crafting any less of a carpal tunnel inducing cookie clicker.

I also think it's a problem that it takes more resources to make as many CCW potions as Heal potions when the raw healing is concerned. Khornite makes a good point here and I never considered that. It perfectly illustrates my issue with the way crafting works right now. You have people investing hundreds of hours to make items that are regarded as so good they're disruptive, and that I can understand, but the solution is not putting these items in the hands of lower levels by somehow more evenly distributing them while also paradoxically making them rarer.

I think the cooldown really is for the best. An alternative idea is making the Heal potion nothing more than a temporary HP buffer that lasts for 1 minute which is capped at how much it heals, so there's no stacking it, and any amount over your max health is shaved off. Thus it is a panic button akin to the pain pills in Left 4 Dead which provide a fading health buffer over time. They exist to get you out of a bad situation but you need actual healing to get your health back properly.