Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal

[Revenant]

Potion of Heal is the balance problem.

How so?

I'd hazard a guess that it's because nothing in the module can outdamage the healing of continuous chugging, and there is no limit to how many a character can have in their inventory. In PvE it doesn't matter, but when players fight, it becomes funny.

It can frustrate DM plots too - hard to balance around someone having a stack of 100 heal pots in their back pocket.

And yeah, it might take some time to get there, to gather up the stock, but if anything that just further exacerbates the divide between the haves and have-nots.

[Kiyosa]

I have to mention the server influx in players and the lack of some kind of increased herb spawning system. There's no chance to pick multiple herbs per node, further increasing this disparity between availability/required herbs per recipe. I think everything is fine how it is, but if this system were to be implemented, then there needs to be more nodes in general or a % chance dependent on your herbalism level that lets you get an additional herb or two per node. At peak hours it's very difficult to gather herbs in certain areas (Vallaki/VoB) where most of the prized herbs do spawn.

This. I will only suggest the adjustment of DCs in order to make progression past lvl 52 a little less of a pain (I still don't get why Imp. Invisibility was lowered that much) but that's about it.

[Khornite]

Potion of Heal is the balance problem.

How so?

I'd hazard a guess that it's because nothing in the module can outdamage the healing of continuous chugging, and there is no limit to how many a character can have in their inventory. In PvE it doesn't matter, but when players fight, it becomes funny.

I've had Cursts, Darkling Swordmasters, Goristro, desert trolls, anubis warriors, malebranches, pit fiends, balors, ebon knights, salt shadows and and a dozen other enemies outdamage a heal potion just in the round of AoOs alone and Heal chugging only result in character death. In higher tier dungeons a heal potions only buys you a few seconds. With late game melee classes, it's not uncommon to see HP getting in the 350+ range. Three heal potions isn't even enough to raise you back to full health, using Cure Criticals, you'd expect to burn 15-20 potions just to heal yourself back to fighting form and drinking a Cure Critical mid-combat does more harm than good. Consider also that drinking a potion breaks combat stance and in the time between drinking and attacking, all incoming attacks hit flatfooted AC and allows sneak attacks. Then add in that heal potions take eight herbs (half of them being very hard to acquire in bulk) and then factor in the massive DC 62? Heal potions are fine. Removing heal potions doesn't help casters and only further under powers melee classes that already need thrown a bone. If someone wants to invest the time to build up their stock of healing potions, what's the issue? Why should players capable of doing that not be allowed to just because other players don't want to put in the same effort?

[APorg]

I've had Cursts, Darkling Swordmasters, Goristro, desert trolls, anubis warriors, malebranches, pit fiends, balors, ebon knights, salt shadows and and a dozen other enemies outdamage a heal potion just in the round of AoOs alone and Heal chugging only result in character death. In higher tier dungeons a heal potions only buys you a few seconds. With late game melee classes, it's not uncommon to see HP hetting in the 350+ range.

PvE hasn't really got anything to do with the Heal potion issue. If anything, it's usually more expensive, at least in terms of pure GP, to rely on Heal potions than Raise Dead in that scenario.

Removing heal potions doesn't help casters and only further under powers melee classes that already need thrown a bone.

Actually, Heal stacks basically make casters relying on damage spells even more unreliable than they were before (on top of the Save issue), since it's entirely possible for a caster to run out of damage spells before the target runs out of Heal potions.  And really, that's kinda silly.

If someone wants to invest the time to build up their stock of healing potions, what's the issue? Why should players capable of doing that not be allowed to just because other players don't want to put in the same effort?

This argument holds precisely zero water, because if it did, Heal potions wouldn't have been nerfed to try and curb the potion stack problem in the first place.

The real questions are whether Heal stacks remain a problem, and whether raising the bar on Heal potions once again to try to discourage Heal stacks merely creates more inequality than it solves, since it will impede new characters and new players disproportionately.

Personally, I veer on the side of thinking Heal potions are expensive enough.  It's still possible to get a stack, sure, but already their expense is high enough that it makes their use in PvE suboptimal.

People are going to stack whatever can help them in PvP anyway (the IGMS swarm is an example of an offensive stack), and the only way to prevent stacks is probably a timer cooldown idea, like Plato mentioned in a previous thread.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Even single monsters can outdamage heal potions without needing to crit.

If someone wants to burn thousands of gold as they stand there getting smacked around in PvP, it's okay if they don't just drop dead.

The obsession with instakills and no-brainer finisher moves is why people gravitate toward the Heal potion. It's not the chicken, it's the egg. You have to nerf all of it to solve the actual problem, you can't just treat the symptoms.

[APorg]

If someone wants to burn thousands of gold as they stand there getting smacked around in PvP, it's okay if they don't just drop dead.

Nah, it's really kinda silly.  But I agree about addressing the cause and not the symptoms.

[Marcus Weyland]

The obsession with instakills and no-brainer finisher moves is why people gravitate toward the Heal potion.

I think they gravitate toward them because they're very powerful, not because of some other imbalance. But as was mentioned, yeah, this is mostly another facet of the PvP situation. We move away from save-or-dies and save-or-sucks by allowing people to cover their classes' weak saves with a huge number of save-boosting items, and if they have normal melee class hitpoints (~350 as mentioned earlier) and the ability to heal ~100 damage per round as a standard action, we're clearly moving away from burst damage, too.

For casters, that's not a realistic amount of damage to be able to deal in a single rest, so casters in conflict with same-level characters have to hope their opponent isn't aware of all the survivability options on the server.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I'd be with you that it's silly if having to heal didn't make you give up any initiative or reaction you might've had in a gank scenario as the target. It really doesn't put them in a good spot to have burned thousands just to survive for their next move, while the enemy is still on them. They then have to actually escape or somehow fight their attacker who's already got them on the backfoot. It's very hard for me to sympathise with the idea that the attacker is somehow the underdog in this situation, desperately trying to topple a heal potion colossus.

350 HP is not by any means normal by the way. d12 + 16 con + toughness = 320 HP. If the server is balancing its damage values around fully buffed high con pure barbs, it's no wonder that save DCs are balanced around fully buffed paladins.

[Marcus Weyland]

It's very hard for me to sympathise with the idea that the attacker is somehow the underdog in this situation, desperately trying to topple a heal potion colossus.

You joke, but that's not far from accurate. If the attacker is a mage, you don't have to do anything besides stand your ground until they're out of spells, and regardless of their class, the ability to buy time in PvP is a huge boon. If they can't put out >100 damage per round, you're not even really being hurt, you're healing, and Heal stacks almost always coincide with big enchanted gear AC and (more importantly) DR.

We're off-topic, sorry.

[APorg]

The issue is that it's buying into a paradigm that legitimises some overpowered stuff because it was gotten through grind.  Bob has 2,000 heal potions, but hey, he did a lot of grinding to get those, so that's OK.

(Obviously this isn't just an issue with Heal potions, it's the same logic that justifies full enchanted save gear, but at least there's a cap on how much enchanted gear you can wear.)

It's not objectively wrong -- it's just that the crafting grind as a basis for fairness is not really thematic, and when you risk being capable of doing the Durkon trope from Order of the Stick and make your opponents fall over from exhaustion before you run out of healing, well, you're in meme territory.

[Kiyosa]

I find it pointless to isolate only one aspect of a broken system, which is PvP in POTM and NWN in general. This platform wasn't designed with PvP in mind. It's possibly one of the worst platforms for PvP. Class balance will therefore never be achieved, consumables and gear aside. So Heal potions are really not the issue here. Far from it.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Actually, Heal stacks basically make casters relying on damage spells even more unreliable than they were before (on top of the Save issue), since it's entirely possible for a caster to run out of damage spells before the target runs out of Heal potions.  And really, that's kinda silly.

As someone who has played a high level caster, this is actually a very interesting point. Spellcasters have already essentially lost the ability to insta-kill people with DC spells (mind, this change wasn't really a bad thing), and now we're seeing their ability to rely on anything that deals damage negated as well. This is going to further pigeonhole spellcasters in what I feel is probably a very bad way.

[APorg]

I agree with the observation that the Heal potion thing is a symptom, not a cause, though.

[Khornite]

I've had Cursts, Darkling Swordmasters, Goristro, desert trolls, anubis warriors, malebranches, pit fiends, balors, ebon knights, salt shadows and and a dozen other enemies outdamage a heal potion just in the round of AoOs alone and Heal chugging only result in character death. In higher tier dungeons a heal potions only buys you a few seconds. With late game melee classes, it's not uncommon to see HP hetting in the 350+ range.

PvE hasn't really got anything to do with the Heal potion issue. If anything, it's usually more expensive, at least in terms of pure GP, to rely on Heal potions than Raise Dead in that scenario.

Removing heal potions doesn't help casters and only further under powers melee classes that already need thrown a bone.

Actually, Heal stacks basically make casters relying on damage spells even more unreliable than they were before (on top of the Save issue), since it's entirely possible for a caster to run out of damage spells before the target runs out of Heal potions.  And really, that's kinda silly.

If someone wants to invest the time to build up their stock of healing potions, what's the issue? Why should players capable of doing that not be allowed to just because other players don't want to put in the same effort?

This argument holds precisely zero water, because if it did, Heal potions wouldn't have been nerfed to try and curb the potion stack problem in the first place.

The real questions are whether Heal stacks remain a problem, and whether raising the bar on Heal potions once again to try to discourage Heal stacks merely creates more inequality than it solves, since it will impede new characters and new players disproportionately.

Personally, I veer on the side of thinking Heal potions are expensive enough.  It's still possible to get a stack, sure, but already their expense is high enough that it makes their use in PvE suboptimal.

People are going to stack whatever can help them in PvP anyway (the IGMS swarm is an example of an offensive stack), and the only way to prevent stacks is probably a timer cooldown idea, like Plato mentioned in a previous thread.

The post I was replying to specifically pointed towards PVE, hence going into PVE as a discussion. Caster's have dozens and dozens of ways to prevent someone from just spamming heal potions, Bigby's spells, anyone? Stuns? Paralysis? Filling the room with Evard's? I've seen Horrid Wilting drop 120+ damage easily, there's plenty of ways to outdamage a heal potion. Hell, at level 20, a maximized Flame Arrow is 120 damage flat (Saves willing) and you can get two of those off if hasted in the time it takes for the target to drink one heal potion and heal 110 HP (240 damage vs 110 healed). Then you have Polar Ray that you can bring as both an 8th and 9th slot to drop all the damage in the world with no saves. I've seen BARDS drop upwards of 200 damage in one round, so I don't see out-damaging a heal potion to be an issue. And again, while the target sits there and (theoretically) chugs 20+ heal potions, you can just drop an Evard's or acid fod on them and force them to move and blast them with damage spells while they relocate. The possibility of someone just sitting there and chugging potions while a mage pours all their spells at them is just not something that's going to happen in PVP. And most mage PVP I've seen isn't damage spells, it's lobbing lock-down magic and just stabbing the person or using save-or-die spells or self-buff sneak mages with flintlocks. But again, I am talking purely PVE with my initial post. And if we want to talk about effectiveness of the heal potions, most caster classes have a way of heavy healing anyways (Shapechange, polymorph, heal, greater restoration, etc.) so not like getting rid of the heal potions would really hurt them. I've been on plenty of servers where FULL heal potions could just be bought in stores for a small amount of coin and never seen mages having an issue with PVP in environments like that while using only NWN Vanilla spells. So on a server where Heal potions are relatively hard to acquire, I think we'll see that even less. I think this concern exists in theory, but will never come up in practice. Mages are just fine in PVP and heal potions are not going to be the thing to suddenly make them useless. And hey, mages can use heal potions, too. They get the same benefit from them that anyone else does.

[Marcus Weyland]

The post I was replying to specifically pointed towards PVE, hence going into PVE as a discussion. Caster's have dozens and dozens of ways to prevent someone from just spamming heal potions, Bigby's spells, anyone? Stuns? Paralysis? Filling the room with Evard's? I've seen Horrid Wilting drop 120+ damage easily, there's plenty of ways to outdamage a heal potion.

The damaging spells that don't involve saves are mostly all mitigated by the same gear that will give you those saves (you can get 10 Acid DR, 10 Negative DR, 3/+5 physical DR, +2 universal saves, and +5 fort saves vs death descriptor from one piece of gear). There are multiple accessories that give you 5 DR vs bludgeoning which will stack to make you basically immune to tentacles on top of acid fog. If you get your hp to safe levels during an attack you can even chug a Freedom potion and be immune to all those lockdown effects outright, or a cheapo dreamcatcher that is proof against two entire schools of magic.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I do agree that grinding shouldn't be what's expected of everyone to reach equity, whether it's in dungeons or crafting. It totally is against the server mantra of roleplay first, but as it is now, it's there, and we really do need this stuff sometimes, so sometimes the RP goes in the direction of getting it.

I'm anti-crafting in any game that allows it, but I'd just be beating a dead horse if I rehash or repost my continued stance that the victory lap levels (post 14) are in a very, very weird place.

So, acknowledging that we may have veered a bit off topic: I don't think potions need to get better and I'm with Siobhan on this one. I really do not want more stacks of potions that do the exact same thing but for 5 more minutes. It's not making mundanes harder to dispel anyway (they use their character level, not the potion's level, for dispel checks), so this isn't a buff for them. Looted & crafted potions already don't stack, and sometimes identical scrolls don't stack, so you can see how this would get out of control very quickly. I also sympathise with the worry that new players' potions are going to be that much less desirable than high level, established characters' potions.

Magic bags are really cumbersome but I'd love to see how people survive a DM meatgrinder without their bottomless inventories. In my case, backline casters using damage and control spells have almost always carried us kicking and screaming through every event with any kind of challenge involved. Re-buffing using potions (after being dispelled or running the clock down) because resting was inhibited was often a measure of security and cautiousness, not an attempt to style on the DM and trivialise the event - those are lower level potions for the most part anyway and I think they serve a fine purpose, especially when a low level herbalist offers a high level a potion, and that potion ends up saving the day.

You could do a lot - make magic bags less available, make them strictly less useful, make potions heavier even. But it will be hard to convince people that change will make the server more fun for them. Making the crafts progress quicker doesn't change how grindy/autopilot they are either so I don't know if I want to see this change all that much.

[APorg]

Khornite, your post has so many errors in it that a full answer would require several paragraphs and further take this off-topic, but let me re-iterate one point and ask a question.

Point: Nobody thinks the Heal potion stack is an issue in PvE.

Question: On these servers where full Heal potions were available to buy, did they also have a plethora of save-improving gear and a near-complete[1] lack of stat-boosting gear, as on PotM?  Because, if not, you're comparing apples and oranges.

1.	The exception being some ultra-rare grandfathered gear and Dark Powers.

[zDark Shadowz]

PvP argument - Instant win spells still work on almost everyone here even if its a small chance, people arent getting 28 universal saving throws across the board. In terms of damage spells if you havent taken any DC feats and arent using an animal spell to put you to 24 casting score, retreat if it doesnt work and come back later, your one spell is much quicker to prepare than 8 herbs gathered in off seasons. War of attrition brutalizes reliance on potions and adds more than one encounter to the duelling, more RP instead of one-and-done gank.

PvRP argument - Heal potion might save yourself from Horrid Wilting but it isn't going to save your friends from being taken and ethereal jaunted away as a hostage.

PvE argument - I had to use 11 potions of heal during a DM event to tank a juiced up raging spectre because it had already killed the other three front liners before it reached me. I don't think it took away from the event, we still had to stop and recover and figure out what to do if that happened again. It gave us a chance though while using up half my stock.

PvAMPC argument - A lot of them already have their emergency eject buttons, potion of Heal doesn't get you out of danger though.

Potions of Heal are not infallible, basic tactics and roleplay can pretty much stop the person with the potions from doing what they were doing.

[Khornite]

Khornite, your post has so many errors in it that a full answer would require several paragraphs and further take this off-topic, but let me re-iterate one point and ask a question.

Point: Nobody thinks the Heal potion stack is an issue in PvE.

Question: On these servers where full Heal potions were available to buy, did they also have a plethora of save-improving gear and a near-complete[1] lack of stat-boosting gear, as on PotM?  Because, if not, you're comparing apples and oranges.

1.	The exception being some ultra-rare grandfathered gear and Dark Powers.

Again, the initial post I was responding to claimed heal potion stacking was an issue in PVE. So I am talking about PVE.

I've done mage PVP for 13+ years on a wide variety of servers, I've never in my life seen mage PVP undone by potions and low tier trinkets that can be undone with a Lesser Dispel from a decent leveled mage...Though I did see a mage once get beaten by a rogue using scrolls only. The servers I'm referring to have MORE saves gear than POTM and it's easy to reach the saves cap and still mages had no issue, they just didn't rely on spells that they knew weren't going to be effective in those instances or brought spells they knew their target was going to have bad saves against (fort for rogues, reflex for clerics, will for fighters). The most high powered server I'd been on was a level 30 cap server and still, I had no issues at all smacking around epic level clerics and fighters with a below-epic wizard. YOu just have to know what spells to bring for what target, not every spells is going to be useful against every target. Just don't use spells that rely on saves like Polar Ray or IMGS. Hell, on POTM I've seen mages win sparring matches against fighters with just Magic Missile and ILMS. I have a mage with me here right now who just did ~120 damage with an Evard's/Acid stack in about 12 seconds. Haste + IGMS/ILMS (the purest of cheese) or Maximized/Empowered Ice Storm is still the most effective means of ending someone, though. I've been here for probably 20 minutes now having a mage (one with more melee feats than magic feats, might I add) hurl spells I request at me and I am really not seeing the damage issue here. The best performing combo was still Haste + empowered IGMS + Power Word Stun + empowered Ice Storm = dead fighter

The damaging spells that don't involve saves are mostly all mitigated by the same gear that will give you those saves (you can get 10 Acid DR, 10 Negative DR, 3/+5 physical DR, +2 universal saves, and +5 fort saves vs death descriptor from one piece of gear). There are multiple accessories that give you 5 DR vs bludgeoning which will stack to make you basically immune to tentacles on top of acid fog. If you get your hp to safe levels during an attack you can even chug a Freedom potion and be immune to all those lockdown effects outright, or a cheapo dreamcatcher that is proof against two entire schools of magic.

Even WITH those items, Acid Fog and Evard's stack is still effective if you empower/maximize and follow it up well. Even if those spells don't do the damage you want, they're still great at baiting your opponent into relocating (so they can't perform other actions) or into wasting time popping other potions and trinkets while you lob damage spells. If you are worried about potions and dream catchers, just open your assault with a dispel. Frankly, ALL mages should open an attack with a dispel since walking around fully buffed is such a common practice here.

[MAB77]

Stop hijacking this thread please. Heal potions are not affected by this update. Open up a different thread if you wish to discuss that issue.

[EarlofEtheria]

Easier to learn herbalism with longer duration potions I believe will foster more roleplay by reducing the pressure of "go-go-go potions are burning".

I worry that it will shift party dynamics and encourage solo play.

I am optimistic that the proposal could make casters of non-buffing playstyle more accepted.

[APorg]

I agree with the point of view that the Herbalism system is, if anything, too powerful already, and making it even more powerful would not be a positive contribution.

[Drekavac]

I do take into account the stockpiling of heal potions to balance encounters and regularly it will result in me balancing it so that several potions of heal are necessary to survive some of these encounters because I know it would be trivial otherwise. As for higher-level spells from potions, I am unsure if that is something I personally would like. I do like the adjustment of the DCs.

[Hatsune]

I've been an herbalist on every character I've played. The benefits out way any 'grind' (and that grind has gotten significantly faster for herbalism with recent changes).

Some points:

-- I dislike the idea that all potions will have higher caster levels. Part of potions downside IS the lower caster level, meaning they are more easily dispelled, as well as lower duration then bringing a caster. It would be interesting to possibly make some ingredient you can add to potions to boost their caster level, but I think the generic level is quite sufficient, and does not need boosting. I think id' be cool to add more recipes to some of the more moderate potions to extend duration though (Think something like adding a 'greater strength herb' to the standard honey-lily strength combo, to provide a level 10 bulls, rather then the level 3. Make more unique combos for interesting effects, to give the stronger herbs a use besides hording for Greater Stat Potions. I think that could be a cool addition, give herbalists more play in the potions and recipies, and could make some uses for some of the more worthless herbs available.

-- The DC formula is well balanced. All recipes but 3 follow it (not sure why these ones don't??), and there is a plethora of recipes in all ranges to utilize. The 'jumps' from 22 to 32 to 42 to 52 aren't enormous, you get yourself proficient with the 22s, then have a 15+ on succeeding the first attempts of the 32's, etc.  There are also potions of 24, 28 between the first tear, dc 40 for mid jump, and 43, 49 for the pre 52 jump. Don't really see any issue with the gaps, all in all. I've done herbalism on every character I play, and recently have trained quite a few herbalists in character with our organization. Certainly easy to make these jumps, Especially if you get muses involved.

-- I see complaints about heal potions, they've been in game long enough to be stockpiled heavily. If they are an issue with PvP, removing access to them will compound the issue with legacy gear in general... its about who still has stuff left over and willing to pass it on or keep it in game. PvP is always about consumables when between two equal combatants, who'se more prepared, don't like it, prepare more. This doesn't just go with herbalism, but any kind of grinding for consumables. Removing them won't balance any sort of playing field. Just limit the access to those that already have them.  I'm against removing them, completely. Find other suggestions if they are a problem, or brew your own and even the PvP encounter.

[herkles]

I agree with the point of view that the Herbalism system is, if anything, too powerful already, and making it even more powerful would not be a positive contribution.

this is my position as well.