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Author Topic: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal  (Read 2979 times)

MAB77

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Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« on: January 28, 2021, 12:16:09 AM »
Greetings fellow prisoners.

As you may know I've been hard at work on major crafting updates for a long while now. A series of set back and real life interfered, delaying things for a while. I am happy to report I am back at it and ready to move on. The new metals and wood essences are almost ready to be implemented, I just need to update a few areas where these resources will spawn and voilà. Then my attention will be entirely focused on completing the tailoring overhaul.

But first, it was really important to finally correct a problem of my own making: Herbalism.

In my last update I introduced a slew of new herbs, but a scripting error caused a very small amount of them not to spawn correctly. This should be corrected as of next update.
Revising the impacts of the changes, I also came to realize I underestimated the DC difference between potion tiers. It should not be as big a step as it sometime is right now and this is something I wanted to correct for a long time now.

To address the points above I propose the following adjustments:

The ability to make a same potion at different effective caster level.
There was this idea of differentiating a bit further between the potions that can be made with herbs from higher level areas from those of lower level areas. We wanted to give a bit more value to high level area herbs. Those would now be used to make more potent versions of potions. For the most part this means an increase in effects durations.

A smaller DC increase between tiers.
While not every high level herbs potions would see their casting level impacted, it sill provides us with a significant amount of potions of varying power that allows us to recalibrate the DCs between tiers. Meaning that many of the potions you brew now will see their DC lowered, with the more potent versions being assign a greater DC. Each tiers are now 5 DC apart, except at the very end near mastery. This will allow a much smoother, and by default faster progression while working this craft. This should greatly help casual players to reach a competent herbalist level without any need to become a master.

The recipes stays the same...
You will not need to relearn anything. The recipes stays the same. Just the end result may differ for something stronger.

... but may require more herbs.
This is a balancing issue. After all you do get stronger potions. But more to the point, the original change was brought about because people could master the craft too quickly and easily. This change will bring the pendulum back on the side of fast progression. The best option that does not penalize lower level players is to double the amount of herbs required for some of the higher level potions. I suspect this will be the only part that may not be welcome about this change, but I ask you to give it a try. We can always revert back to a lower amount of herbs required later if need be.

This update is all ready to go live now. Though this time I leave the decision to you the players. Have your say people. Is this something you wish to see implemented or not?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 12:22:25 AM by MAB77 »
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MAB

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 12:26:26 AM »
I think different effective caster levels for the same potion should be tied to adding a particular reagent to an existing recipe so it's just a check on whether that is present or not.

This increased level also increases DCs of potions so helps fix the ability to make things in different ranges. Using reagents to make stronger caster level potions provides a massive variety of DCs to make from, filling in any "gaps" in tiers.

Current DCs for potions are fine in my honest opinion. As soon as people make potions of Heal and Ethereal Visage there's very little content left in the module that isn't difficult aside from "end game" content. The final and appropriate reward for all the effort to get there.

Doubling herb amounts to make stronger potions may slow down bulk crafting lower variants of potions, since you toss in all the herbs at once for those, what's the check whether the potion needs to require double reagents or not?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 12:28:54 AM by zDark Shadowz »

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 12:35:21 AM »
i'm worried that variable caster levels might simply be too strong, for what the system is.
This would remove the current meta, which is "you don't need mages for buffs but you need them to get the long-lasting, hard-to-dispel kind", and replace it with "you don't need mages for buffs."

Obviously it would be expensive to use potions for dungeon runs, but these items are what people use when it hits the fan. I'd prefer if the emergency option wasn't necessarily a substitute for an entire party member.

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2021, 12:43:13 AM »
The DCs for some potions are too high at the moment. Blur and Keen Senses especially. Maybe drop them to their previous DC 20 ish range and make a higher CL (and longer duration version) at the current DC


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BlackEmperor

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2021, 12:44:59 AM »
i'm worried that variable caster levels might simply be too strong, for what the system is.
This would remove the current meta, which is "you don't need mages for buffs but you need them to get the long-lasting, hard-to-dispel kind", and replace it with "you don't need mages for buffs."

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MAB77

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2021, 12:47:35 AM »
I think different effective caster levels for the same potion should be tied to adding a particular reagent to an existing recipe so it's just a check on whether that is present or not.

I certainly thought about this, and actually agree. But even if it was not for the fact that many potions are the the maximum number of components the script accepts, to add a single component to anything in the crafting system greatly complexifies things. It would require to double (and script) the amount of potion recipies in the game, to create and implement the actual resource, find ways for it to spawn in game at numerous locations, update all those identified areas etc. It's not a difficult task per say, it's just excruciatingly long and tedious to do. I franckly have no intention of going through that. This from the guy that had no issues adding tens of thousands of lines of codes for the crafting updates. Doubling the amount of herbs works just as well for my needs with far less troubles.
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MAB

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MAB77

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2021, 12:53:37 AM »
i'm worried that variable caster levels might simply be too strong, for what the system is.
This would remove the current meta, which is "you don't need mages for buffs but you need them to get the long-lasting, hard-to-dispel kind", and replace it with "you don't need mages for buffs."

Obviously it would be expensive to use potions for dungeon runs, but these items are what people use when it hits the fan. I'd prefer if the emergency option wasn't necessarily a substitute for an entire party member.

Nonsense. A high level caster always remain more useful than a potion. We're not making them at a 20th effective caster level. You need not worried that casters will be out of job. Beside extended duration will often just mean that you use a single potion instead of 2. It will not change much of anything for non spellcasters.
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MAB

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Phantasia

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2021, 12:54:22 AM »
I have to mention the server influx in players and the lack of some kind of increased herb spawning system. There's no chance to pick multiple herbs per node, further increasing this disparity between availability/required herbs per recipe. I think everything is fine how it is, but if this system were to be implemented, then there needs to be more nodes in general or a % chance dependent on your herbalism level that lets you get an additional herb or two per node. At peak hours it's very difficult to gather herbs in certain areas (Vallaki/VoB) where most of the prized herbs do spawn.
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2021, 12:56:36 AM »
Nonsense. A high level caster always remain more useful than a potion. We're not making them at a 20th effective caster level. You need not worried that casters will be out of job. Beside extended duration will often just mean that you use a single potion instead of 2. It will not change much of anything for non spellcasters.

I like it, then.

MAB77

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2021, 01:04:53 AM »
I have to mention the server influx in players and the lack of some kind of increased herb spawning system. There's no chance to pick multiple herbs per node, further increasing this disparity between availability/required herbs per recipe. I think everything is fine how it is, but if this system were to be implemented, then there needs to be more nodes in general or a % chance dependent on your herbalism level that lets you get an additional herb or two per node. At peak hours it's very difficult to gather herbs in certain areas (Vallaki/VoB) where most of the prized herbs do spawn.

Lower DCs for most actual recipies does mean that you will require less herbs to progress, at least until one needs the higher level herbs. So this kinds of help with the problem you describe. I will consider the possibility of increasing the amount of herbs per nodes though.
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MAB

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SevenStormStyle

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2021, 01:07:45 AM »
I have to mention the server influx in players and the lack of some kind of increased herb spawning system. There's no chance to pick multiple herbs per node, further increasing this disparity between availability/required herbs per recipe. I think everything is fine how it is, but if this system were to be implemented, then there needs to be more nodes in general or a % chance dependent on your herbalism level that lets you get an additional herb or two per node. At peak hours it's very difficult to gather herbs in certain areas (Vallaki/VoB) where most of the prized herbs do spawn.

I would actually agree with this even without the update (which sounds fine, btw). right now, it's pretty often that when I want barovian herbs, I have to gather at night/in hostile areas. that's totally doable for my char, but I imagine a lot of people aren't starting herbalism at level 19.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2021, 01:24:44 AM »
The herbalism system is already extremely imbalanced. I am firmly against elevating its power any further.

I am very much for spreading the DCs so there's progression up the tiers.

Khornite

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2021, 01:28:37 AM »
i'm worried that variable caster levels might simply be too strong, for what the system is.
This would remove the current meta, which is "you don't need mages for buffs but you need them to get the long-lasting, hard-to-dispel kind", and replace it with "you don't need mages for buffs."

Obviously it would be expensive to use potions for dungeon runs, but these items are what people use when it hits the fan. I'd prefer if the emergency option wasn't necessarily a substitute for an entire party member.

I see this point brought up often but have never actually seen anyone go "We won't need a wizard, we will use potions". The reality is more "We've been looking for a wizard for an HOUR...I guess we'll use potions." And then you end up using more coin worth of potions than you get out of the dungeon.
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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2021, 01:33:57 AM »
The herbalism system is already extremely imbalanced. I am firmly against elevating its power any further.

I am very much for spreading the DCs so there's progression up the tiers.
Herbalism is the most useful, and still the fastest profession to level compared to everything else still. The current DC track is perfectly fine, especially with the existence of having muses.

Revenant

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2021, 01:45:36 AM »
I'm all for any change that reduces the unhealthy amount of time crafters are expected to spend in front of a crafting station. That's more time that can go towards other stories, and it's not like it removes the ability for someone to stand in front of a cauldron and meticulously emote their stirring to an apprentice.

Most of these options seem fine, though I'm a bit wary of higher spell level potions for similar reasons to those stated above. Herbalism progression is fairly tolerable because ingredients have limited weight, but there is a notable gulf in the later tiers that can feel unpleasant to push through. It's cool to see that acknowledged.

Unrelated - is there a particular reasoning why Serious Regen and up are ten DC higher than their corresponding Cures? That always stood out as a bit odd to me.
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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2021, 02:04:37 AM »
I'm all for any change that reduces the unhealthy amount of time crafters are expected to spend in front of a crafting station. That's more time that can go towards other stories, and it's not like it removes the ability for someone to stand in front of a cauldron and meticulously emote their stirring to an apprentice.

Most of these options seem fine, though I'm a bit wary of higher spell level potions for similar reasons to those stated above. Herbalism progression is fairly tolerable because ingredients have limited weight, but there is a notable gulf in the later tiers that can feel unpleasant to push through. It's cool to see that acknowledged.

Unrelated - is there a particular reasoning why Serious Regen and up are ten DC higher than their corresponding Cures? That always stood out as a bit odd to me.

Its based on spell level and caster level.

Regen Light: Innate Level 1
Regen Moderate: Innate Level 2
Regen Serious: Innate Level 4
Regen Critical: Innate 5

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2021, 02:21:26 AM »
I think having multiple caster levels for potions would aggravate the inventory management nightmare of potion crafting. It already takes four bags at least to carry a copy of each potion, not to mention the stock of herb bags to manage supplies.

For people using potions, having multiple stacks of similar potion effects is annoying to keep track of and I think discourage people from exchanging potions between each other, since they would prefer stacking supplies.

(( If I have any feedback on the current herbalism system, it is that black avis & red caps are dead herbs since Potions of Clarity are made redundant with the cheapness and readily available Aber Dreamcatchers from Fogg. ))
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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2021, 03:45:03 AM »
I like the idea of rising CL, personally, although (and this might also connect to the DC adjustment) I was thinking maybe it'l be possible to open some sort of menu when you activate the herbalist tool on a cauldron that gives you the option to work the recipe with different CL options (for the same herbs) rising the DC of the craft by doing so, while still having the really potent potions still up the DC ladder (so you can have many moderate-lvl herbalists doing useful buffed CL potions like the animal wards and such, but going to the higher tier potions still significantly tougher to make), I know this is not in league with the idea to motivate people and search herbs in remote places for higher CL, but imo those are quite already a chore to find and are currently used for the dc 52 and above potions (esp the 62 ones).


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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2021, 03:46:03 AM »
Since herbalism has been something that the development team has pondered improvement upon, I would ask if its ever been considered that now that we have an action version of PotM, if we maybe could not tone back the readily available solutions to all monster hunting needs situation that we have now. The existence of an action-orientated alternative would seem to allow this server to scale back into a more low magic version of itself, a more team-oriented version of itself.


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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2021, 05:42:36 AM »
The higher caster level potions won't be a problem. I have no issue with them.

Please remove Potion of Heal out the list of craftable potions while you are making changes. Healing potions should end at cure and regenerate Critical, especially if we get higher caster level versions.

Potion of Heal is the balance problem.
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Asous

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2021, 05:53:42 AM »
Potion of Heal is the balance problem.

How so? I'd argue higher caster levels of the buffing potions are more of an issue, given they remove the urgent need for a few classes. No one will ever be replaced by a potion, sure - the same applies to healing as well. Given how annoyingly hard it is to find Heal potions, they're not used that often.

The herbalism system is already extremely imbalanced. I am firmly against elevating its power any further.

Do elaborate.

I have not touched any crafting because I'm idle, but the proposed changes seem good on paper.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 05:56:42 AM by Asous »

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2021, 06:13:10 AM »
I think the suggestions are good, but preference would be that the potion levels rise with crafter ability, without the need for additional ingredients. Herbs are a good source of income for low levels, to devalue the ones they have access to would take something away from the server culture.

Heal potions are fine.

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2021, 11:32:22 AM »
I like this, this could add some really neat rp possibilities. Master herbalists can actually rp how their product is superior to the everyday herbalist, teach others to add extra herbs or whatever.  And the idea of the potions being higher caster level is great. Buuuut, we kind of already have this with the new potions that I've seen (not figured out) of the greater varieties?
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2021, 11:45:20 AM »
Potion of Heal is the balance problem.

How so?

I'd hazard a guess that it's because nothing in the module can outdamage the healing of continuous chugging, and there is no limit to how many a character can have in their inventory. In PvE it doesn't matter, but when players fight, it becomes funny.

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Re: Herbalism Update 2.0 - A proposal
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2021, 11:47:48 AM »
The herbalism system is already extremely imbalanced. I am firmly against elevating its power any further.

This is basically my stance. If we want to add more ways to get spells into people's hands, I would like to point out once again that scroll-making could be a very neat thing.
: )