Protection and Weight

[Ashbringer85]

Disclaimer - I like fantasy to make as much sense as possible given the conditions of the world and I find it immersion breaking when things just don't make sense.

In almost every context I can think of with armour weight increased as protection increases....its simply logical the more metal or layers you need for better protection the heavier it gets. However on Ravenloft heavy armour is not only no better than any other armour, its outright worse in most regards. It has all the weaknesses of heavy armour -the weight, skill reductions and higher costs but none of the upsides which is usually its plain more protective.

Now if you add in the fact parry and tumble give AC...your more protected in light armour than heavy. In fact if you use full plate and a tower shield you would end up less protected with the heaviest gear possible. Its just not logical that for example a duel wield person with light armour would have better defence than someone in full plate with a tower shield. Unless your playing Neo from the Matrix and dodge everything...and when you get hit take the damage damage as the guy in full plate. ARRRRGH this drives me nuts.. full plate is awesome. There are a lot of misconceptions about plate armour but that stuff if represented properly...would be massively OP. So I wouldn't even want to to be very realistic but it should at least have some sort of advantage.

Not really sure the fix in all honesty its just something that annoys me. I don't really expect a change because it seems like it would be a very tough thing to fix and its probably something I am just going to have to try to ignore. Its just something that annoyed me and I wanted to point out and now that its done I consider that an end of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO2nM_2iBXA&list=TLPQMjcxMTIwMjDAQhwg3iwGeg&index=2 - just in case anyone is interested how good plate actually is.

[Khornite]

Not gunna lie, it's always been weird to me that LESS armor equals MORE armor on this server. Dex is OP enough already before you even add in stealth. Fighters feel shafted. It'd be nice to see heavy armors maybe giving a little more AC. Hell, I'd be happy with ONE extra point of AC for heavy armor.

[Maffa]

the problem is that in this setting, there is very low magic items around, but there's nothing stopping people skills and magic going up and up. If my full plate and my tower shield were both +3, which is quite normal once you hit 3/4 of the level cap campaign pretty much anywhere, id have south of AC40 unbuffed. In this setting, as a "tank" warrior, i have to take levels on rogue only to raise tumble and gain a few points on AC even though i cant tumble cos of heavy plate penalties. I see it not as much as a rp choice but a mechanical one because the setting forces me to.

There must have been some serious thinking as to why rogues can raise their defenses indefinitely while warriors cannot (edit: if not at the expenses of their AB via expertise), but if you ask me i cannot answer that.

[Purist]

I believe on a 1 vs 1 scenario the guy who has less armor will be faster and likely win from the armored behemoth, as long as he finds a way to hurt the other. But I do agree that using a full plate will mechanically be worst than wearing say a chain shirt, having dextery, ranks in tumble and parry, sure. Though, for classes that don't have any way of investing too much into parry or let alone have tumble as a proper skill, full plate lets you put stat points on something else instead of dextery.

I wish heavy armors would have some minor innate Damage Reduction to compensate for that: Splint Mail 1 DR | Half Plate 2 DR | Full Plate 3 DR. I would find that more realistic, since all the added layers of metal really do is.. chugging force, absorbing a strike and dissipating it over the parts. Now I know that is never going to be a thing in a game like this.

[Nezmith]

As you mentioned in your first sentence, this is a fantasy setting. Armor is great if we're looking at a strictly realistic setting, but we typically don't have magically-infused armaments that are specifically designed to cut through armor unless you count depleted uranium, which largely changed effective armor design in the 20th century. As it stands, I don't see any armor design in this setting covering all necessary protections without being unbearably cumbersome.

"Its just not logical that for example a duel wield person with light armour would have better defence than someone in full plate with a tower shield. Unless your playing Neo from the Matrix and dodge everything"

This last sentence would be more than enough to go on. Monks can already catch arrows flying in the air starting at level 3. The best you have at that level is around 5 parry or tumble. Granted, it's a class skill, but consider parry or tumble for fighters at a level where casters can control the weather and fundamentally alter reality to the point where you avoid damage by standing still. All these high level fighters practically *are* Neo. To then quote old wisdom from MMORPG players or any fighter in history whatsoever - 'it's better to not be hit than be hit at all'.

I think it makes plenty of sense in this setting that investing all these extra skill points in dodging/deflecting with tumble and parry would eventually put you over the edge compared to a full heavy armor user which has only invested more cash by comparison. It would completely invalidate the use of lighter armors if it were the other way around, which puts too much preference on low-dex fighters. It sounds like you may not be happy with that answer, but those are my thoughts on the matter.

[DM Erebus]

Is not the answer that to achieve peak AC with a Dex-leaning build, you must invest more feats. Improved Parry, the Bonetti’s Defense lime, Two Weapon Defense or Shield Parry.

A fighter in Full Plate with a Tower Shield does not need to invest any feats beyond what they get for free. Nor do they need to invest any skill points into Parry, they can go on something else.

So that’s your tradeoff. Heavy Sword n’Board is cheap. To achieve peak AC you have to spend resources on it.

[Maffa]

I believe on a 1 vs 1 scenario the guy who has less armor will be faster and likely win from the armored behemoth, as long as he finds a way to hurt the other.

thousand of unarmored peasant that got eaten alive by men at arms would like to disagree  this is a common misconception. people trained to wear armor were proficient and able to do all that was needed to strike unarmored opponents, including make use of the armor to open up unarmed people defenses. it's not for chance that full armors disappeared only when firearms started to rule battlefields.

But I do agree that using a full plate will mechanically be worst than wearing say a chain shirt, having dextery, ranks in tumble and parry, sure. Though, for classes that don't have any way of investing too much into parry or let alone have tumble as a proper skill, full plate lets you put stat points on something else instead of dextery.

DEX is probably the best stat combat wise. it rules AC, saves, AB for finesse weapons and ranged weapons, so many other skills depend on it. The only other thing you use STR for is carry weight, which is not something to sneeze at on a setting where you have to carry your home with you like a turtle, but really thats it.

On a medieval setting such as this, in a place where magic should be shunned, there should be no real disadvantage in using a full plate if not the cost. Wearing a full plate should be the stuff of knights and officials, not something you get out the mists with. But granted, it's so weak that if that's what you like be my guest.

[Maffa]

Is not the answer that to achieve peak AC with a Dex-leaning build, you must invest more feats. Improved Parry, the Bonetti’s Defense lime, Two Weapon Defense or Shield Parry.

A fighter in Full Plate with a Tower Shield does not need to invest any feats beyond what they get for free. Nor do they need to invest any skill points into Parry, they can go on something else.

So that’s your tradeoff. Heavy Sword n’Board is cheap. To achieve peak AC you have to spend resources on it.

Fighters in heavy armor dont have any choice to improve their Ac except expertise and imp exp., and they have a INT requirement which honestly baffles me a bit. Fighters get plenty of feats, so many that to a certain point of you could just pick them randomly. On the other hand, they dont get any choice to become even sturdier as a tradeoff for the other classes: having more HP doesnt mean much when the others (PC and NPC alike) can make buckefuls of damage AND avoid damage.

The ultimate truth (edit: bit dramatic: "In my opinion" sounds better  ) is that past a certain point, which is rather early in the leveling up, pure fighters cease to be the kings of fighting. And since that's their only job, they become rather redundant.

[DM Erebus]

The ultimate truth is that past a certain point, which is rather early in the leveling up, pure fighters cease to be the kings of fighting. And since that's their only job, they become rather redundant.

Welcome to D&D 3.X

[Khornite]

The ultimate truth is that past a certain point, which is rather early in the leveling up, pure fighters cease to be the kings of fighting. And since that's their only job, they become rather redundant.

Welcome to D&D 3.X

3.X also has a wealth of additional feats and content that allow fighters to remain competitive at later levels if you know what you are doing with them. Complete Warrior, Sword and Fist and Complete Adventurer alone have enough content that could be easily placed into NWN that would help close the gap in balance. Anyone remember the 54+ attacks per round fighter builds that used to float around places like the Candlekeep forums or Giants in the Playground?

[Revenant]

There are PnP systems where armor primarily functions off of DR, and platemail and the like accordingly become king per realism. D&D 3.X is not one of those systems - it is balanced around AC being the primary representative of your physical defenses. When you fail to get hit, it's not just a blow missing you, it could be construed as glancing off your armor, your shield, hitting a tough portion and failing to make through, etc. Changes to the armor system to incorporate DR would be a half-measure step away from 3.X without accommodating all of the considerations those other systems make for their armors.

Let me throw you some numbers.

A tower shield provides 3 AC. Base plate armor provides 8 AC and allows for 1 Dexterity bonus (let's say you have 12 Dex or chug a Cat's Grace potion, either common for frontliners).

To match even that 12 AC, without assuming that the shield or armor has been buffed or is of good quality, you need to have a combination of armor, dexterity, and parry that reaches it. I'm not counting tumble, as even a fighter with a minimum dip into rogue can match a level 20 rogue's tumble and get full benefit from it.

All armor on this server has been balanced to meet 9 AC between Base Armor Class and Maximum Dexterity Bonus. A rogue wearing Studded Leather would require 24 Dex to meet a 12 Dex Fighter in Full Plate's AC, and they'll also require 15 points of Parry to cover the tower shield's 3 AC. That's fully half of their total possible parry devoted simply to catching up - and it's very simply done to make a tower shield +3, if only temporarily, which would even it out with the full 30 points.

As to setting integrity - this server is already balanced so most content is difficult to reliably accomplish without being lit up like a Christmas tree. Nimblemen having higher potential AC at the levels where people start developing almost super heroic talent doesn't bother me too much, particularly considering the prevalence of enemies with high DR and immunity to the classic dex methods of damage pumping hardly render strength's extra damage meaningless.

[Vissy]

Every player character is already superhuman from Level 1 - considering that 'average' stats is 10 across the board in D&D. A character who starts with 18 strength is way more than twice as strong than a character with 10 STR (if you consider carry weight indicative), etc. etc.

The way I kind of rationalize it to myself is that D&D people are just superhuman in comparison to what we'd consider normal.

[Purist]

thousand of unarmored peasant that got eaten alive by men at arms would like to disagree  this is a common misconception. people trained to wear armor were proficient and able to do all that was needed to strike unarmored opponents, including make use of the armor to open up unarmed people defenses. it's not for chance that full armors disappeared only when firearms started to rule battlefields.

I wasn't referring to a mob of peasant with pitch forks fighting a handful of armored men, I know that would be disaster. I said that, on a 1 versus 1 scenario, a guy with say a chain shirt could beat a guy with fullplate, as long as their skills levels were similar. "Could" means it is open for either result, I am not saying less armor will always win over more armor. In reality, the more skilled party is more prone to win, of course!

[Maffa]

What I'm trying to say is that if full plate mails weren't effective they wouldn't have been in use for that long. Nor that costly. This is so much out of topic, so ill put it in spoilers, but long story short, this urban legend is around since the first version of D&D by Gigax and his division among light, medium, and heavy armor.

Spoiler: show

I understand this topic is completely out of the scope of the topic, but a custom made full plate mail could cost between one to more than 3 year pay of a journeyman depending on the decorations. And professional warriors did nothing but train on their craft, so much so that they could fight for hours with that bulk on.

So no, I dont think a heavier armor is of any liability to a trained professional than a lighter armor, one on one. I'd leave that sort of stuff to action fiction such as Robin Hood and ninja movies. Unless, since this is fantasy, this is the sort of "Jerry vs Tom / "Road Runner vs Wile E. Coyote", "Errol Flynn vs. Everyone" sort of fiction that is acceptable/welcomed in this particular setting (unironically and absolutely acceptable, mind you), so im glad to play the Wizard of Oz's Tinman goon for the quirky, the sneaky and the snappy folks out there

So, as far as D&D and RPG games mechanics are concerned, the presumption is that mail weight as much as half than the full plate, whereas in truth the heaviest piece of a full plate is always the chain armour underneath the plate, covering the gaps. in any case, the full plate were as mobile as it allowed its wearer to best anyone with a lesser armor and equal skill, simply because if it weren't true he wouldn't have spent all that money on it! For further information you can see this video from Metatron, an historian and Ancient and Medieval weapon's enthusiast

I accept all the game-wise restrictions in terms of weight and protection that the server think it's fair to balance things as far as this server, and well NWN engine, can handle, but I'm convinced that in RL, when a warrior in chain mail met and equally skilled warrior in full plate mail one on one, the warrior in chain mail was a dead man.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Revenant's post is really very accurate. This game is not at all realistic, it is not based on realism, it's not balanced around real life combat, or anything like that.

When your character is fresh, heavier armour and shields are much better. You just can't get the required dex and parry to make up for it. This will change with levels and gear investment.

Later on, when you're enchanting and stuff, there is no "adamantine x-gilded" variant of leather or lighter, either. It's pretty much just enchanted leather.

Things may not feel balanced but there were special considerations taken. Party play is great and pure martials do make a difference in a well balanced party.

[Crowl]

Later on, when you're enchanting and stuff, there is no "adamantine x-gilded" variant of leather or lighter, either. It's pretty much just enchanted leather.

I do think there's an type of leather that gives +2 AC armor bonus as a base, which when enchanted turns into +4 AC, which is higher than the +3 you get from regular enchanting of a full adamantine plate. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I might as well be.

Realism is not in question as we all make concessions where that is concerned so long as suspension of disbelief can be mantained, otherwise we would all be using one or two sword models, one or two helmet models, and one or two armor models because those would be realistically the best there is, with the current available smithing techniques and technology.

On the other hand I always too found it strange that the Fighters were, actually, not that good at fighting. They were, in fact, sub-par to other classes in many aspects, even if that aspect was as simple as "I walk up to you and right-click you to death". This was because I came to the game knowing very little of what Fighters actually were I took the description as a truthful statement.

Fighters can be many things, from soldiers to criminal enforcers. Some see adventure as a way to get rich, while others use their skills to protect the innocent. Fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities of the PC classes, and they are trained to use all standard weapons and armor. A fighter's rigorous martial training grants him many bonus feats as he progresses, and high-level fighters have access to special melee maneuvers and exotic weapons not available to any other character.

The latter part I felt was if not misleading an outright lie, there is nothing a fighter can get that is unique to them, high level or not, that is not available to any other character.

There is no special or exotic equipment that is class restricted to high level fighters.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Later on, when you're enchanting and stuff, there is no "adamantine x-gilded" variant of leather or lighter, either. It's pretty much just enchanted leather.

I do think there's an type of leather that gives +2 AC armor bonus as a base, which when enchanted turns into +4 AC, which is higher than the +3 you get from regular enchanting of a full adamantine plate. Correct me if I'm wrong though, because I might as well be.

That may be the case. I'm not aware of what everything gets, but as far as endgame combat armour goes, adamantine takes the cake, and it's squarely targeted at martials (especially pure martials) who have the strength to use it. The DR is a sought after quality too.

On the other hand I always too found it strange that the Fighters were, actually, not that good at fighting. They were, in fact, sub-par to other classes in many aspects, even if that aspect was as simple as "I walk up to you and right-click you to death". This was because I came to the game knowing very little of what Fighters actually were I took the description as a truthful statement.

Fighters can be many things, from soldiers to criminal enforcers. Some see adventure as a way to get rich, while others use their skills to protect the innocent. Fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities of the PC classes, and they are trained to use all standard weapons and armor. A fighter's rigorous martial training grants him many bonus feats as he progresses, and high-level fighters have access to special melee maneuvers and exotic weapons not available to any other character.

The latter part I felt was if not misleading an outright lie, there is nothing a fighter can get that is unique to them, high level or not, that is not available to any other character.

There is no special or exotic equipment that is class restricted to high level fighters.

I've been really impressed before by at least one well built pure fighter. They stood up in a no buff fight against a weapon master of the same level and I know both were enchanted out the wazoo with some of the best equipment. It was such a close fight that, if repeated, either of them may have won.

I think pure fighter can work. Is it better than fighter rogue on this server? Probably not. Why would anyone wait until level 17 to get armor skin when that AC can be gained before level 10 as a fighter/rogue? Why bank on overwhelming critical when sneak attacks (gained from rogue levels before level 17) are easier to land?

But you are right, there really is no gear or weapons exclusive to them, and there really are no maneuvers that only a fighter could use (every class has its unique combat stuff anyway). That could change. Of course, on the gear/weapons side of things it'll probably just get UMD'd by a fighter/rogue anyway, but some new 15+ fighter only feats that give new abilities might be cool to see.

[Kaninchen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are some fighter only feat that require full fighter to get, and that could be what that description is pertaining to.

You are correct in that 2/7 leather, when enchanted, will become 4/7 leather.  I don't know how this compares to enchanted plate variants, as I haven't played  PC who uses it to be able to tell you.

How much these facts address the OP, I've no idea.

Best I can say is there are choices to be made in how you make your build. It really depends on what you want to be able to manage on your character. I know of a rogue who has like....7 instances of Skill Focus, for example, and is quite terrible in combat.  Player went with his theme over combat viability.  I can't say what breaks immersion for other folk, but the OP doesn't personally do it for me.

Edit:  As far as viability of pure fighter....Teram Monroe still frightens me. RIP

[EO]

You can indeed get more AC with lighter armors, but as others have pointed out, it comes at the cost of skills, feats, stats. Whereas if you go full plate/tower shield you can use these skills, feats for other purposes. Also when fully enchanted/buffed a Tower Shield/Full Plate build will have more AC since you can buff both the shield and the armor.

[zDark Shadowz]

There are currently heavier armours in the game that offer damage resistance and damage reduction, with enchanting or a magic vestment spell (aside from other unique properties enchanted armour may have) it makes them better than crafted gear for the purposes of purely defence, whether leather or full-plate.

As for the side argument of fighters being shafted for feat maneuvers, there are a lot of feats that aren't implemented in NWN currently that really depends on how the combat system is hardcoded on whether something can be added or not. I'd recommend running through a list on arkalseif or a similar website that lists and try find things the Ravenloft developers would be interested in making that could be coded in. Brutal Throw so fighters (only) can add their strength modifier instead of their dexterity for thrown weapons for instance, giving them a very viable long-range option.

There's a lot of fighter only feats they can choose from. When making a suggestion for the feat additions make sure to reference the source correctly, 3.0 versions where possible if it has them.

[Ashbringer85]

Is not the answer that to achieve peak AC with a Dex-leaning build, you must invest more feats. Improved Parry, the Bonetti’s Defense lime, Two Weapon Defense or Shield Parry.

A fighter in Full Plate with a Tower Shield does not need to invest any feats beyond what they get for free. Nor do they need to invest any skill points into Parry, they can go on something else.

So that’s your tradeoff. Heavy Sword n’Board is cheap. To achieve peak AC you have to spend resources on it.

You can also use stealth skills, have considerably less to carry, cheaper armour to change, parry mode defence.

That is not a trade off at all. Dex just has more options....actually a lot more options. Unless parry AC keeps stacking forever you don't need improved parry. Two weapon defence...since when was that a bad feat? you have to take feats in any character build, that is not a hardship its good!. This server is generous with the amount of feats you get.

Builds are extremely flexible having a lot of choice of what to invest in is good, its far worse when there is nothing you really want. Tower shield fighter for example...has more feat than they know what to do with and very likely a bunch of skill points they just throw away because there isn't anything else that is good. That is how I am on my fighter at least. So whats the investment in leather giving the same AC as plate?

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I’ve played a lot of characters on this server that went enchanted Addy full plate + enchanted tower shield, as well as a lot of characters that have gone enchanted sturdy leather armors with full investments in AC skills & feats. I think the server is well balanced. There are major advantages to both STR & Dex builds, it really just depends on what you want your characters to excel at. There’s also some advantages to splitting the difference and doing a medium armor, depending on the build. Skill points, feats, carrying weight, and the biggest advantage to STR builds in my opinion - dealing damage. Shields are also undervalued by many players; shields can be enchanted, buffed and used with shield parry. I really like where the balance is on this server right now, as someone who plays characters everywhere on the STR vs DEX spectrum

[Maffa]

Best I can say is there are choices to be made in how you make your build. It really depends on what you want to be able to manage on your character. I know of a rogue who has like....7 instances of Skill Focus, for example, and is quite terrible in combat.  Player went with his theme over combat viability.  I can't say what breaks immersion for other folk, but the OP doesn't personally do it for me.

Edit:  As far as viability of pure fighter....Teram Monroe still frightens me. RIP

Point is, if a warrior's only job is to fight, i expect an average fighter to be able to win any duel against same level/same gear quality, non warrior-class opponent, whatever the level. Because warriors cannot cast spells, cannot pick locks, cannot hide, etc. They have one job only, and i expect they be undeniably the best at it. And this is does not happen, not until maybe level 19 when you have enchanted adamantine and so many feats to cover for you. A 12 lvl warrior cannot possibly hope to beat a 12 lvl cleric, mage, rogue, monk, druid, etc, if not on the onset of the battle: if that warrior has to walk even a few steps he has already lost.

A rogue doesn't have to minmax to exasperation their build in order to be a better rogue than a fighter (or any other class), to any level. That's all there is. AC is but one aspect of the whole irrelevance that martial characters have.

[Iridni Ren]

Spoiler: show

Best I can say is there are choices to be made in how you make your build. It really depends on what you want to be able to manage on your character. I know of a rogue who has like....7 instances of Skill Focus, for example, and is quite terrible in combat.  Player went with his theme over combat viability.  I can't say what breaks immersion for other folk, but the OP doesn't personally do it for me.

Edit:  As far as viability of pure fighter....Teram Monroe still frightens me. RIP

Point is, if a warrior's only job is to fight, i expect an average fighter to be able to win any duel against same level/same gear quality, non warrior-class opponent, whatever the level. Because warriors cannot cast spells, cannot pick locks, cannot hide, etc. They have one job only, and i expect they be undeniably the best at it. And this is does not happen, not until maybe level 19 when you have enchanted adamantine and so many feats to cover for you. A 12 lvl warrior cannot possibly hope to beat a 12 lvl cleric, mage, rogue, monk, druid, etc, if not on the onset of the battle: if that warrior has to walk even a few steps he has already lost.

A rogue doesn't have to minmax to exasperation their build in order to be a better rogue than a fighter (or any other class), to any level. That's all there is. AC is but one aspect of the whole irrelevance that martial characters have.

The class-balance issue is distinct from the armor issue described in the OP. If heavy armor were to be improved, for example, most clerics would also be stronger as most of us wear it.

Perhaps instead of improving the armor across the board, then, a feat (as fighters have so many feats to employ) might be a better approach. An off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion:

Armored Mobility: The person with this feat has adapted to moving in armor so that the armor-check penalty is halved.

I don't really want to go too much into the class-balance part of your post because it will veer us off topic, but briefly, an unbuffed fighter beats an unbuffed cleric. A buffed fighter beats a buffed cleric. These conditions are true not only in PvP but in PvE. ICly I love having my second Pelorean with me, but in terms of party synergy and complementing one another for a lot of dungeons, it would probably be better if he were a pure fighter.