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Author Topic: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;  (Read 1793 times)

JustMonika

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Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« on: November 18, 2020, 09:18:43 AM »
Hello!

There seems to be a limit of 8 on keys for Warehouse and the Penthouse areas.

Could we look at expanding this? There doesn't seem to be a good reason either IC or OOC to impose a hard cap on keys being issued, and reduces the number of people that can easily participate in roleplay in these spaces, which seems counter productive if these are hoped to be open spaces.

The Penthouse in particular, feels like it would benefit from being able to used by as many people as possible, it's such a lovely space and hard to aquire that I'm not sure why we'd then restrict the number of people that could be permitted to access it by the new owners.

No big deal, but hopefully its a minimum effort for a sizeable impact sort of change. Even just changing it from 8 - 12 would be a big increase.

Inti

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2020, 12:17:19 PM »
And in Vallaki too.

I think the current amount of keys may work if everyone with a key is consistently active, but if you factor constantly changing availability and RL creeping up on people every so often, then you run into serious logistical problems even within groups that are fairly active overall.

Even reshuffling of existing keys is not straight-forward due to 1. timezones, 2. lack of time to even log in 3. IC people having no reason to leave the faction, 4 people still active, but are able to log in just 3-4 times a week. More keys would definitely be a mitigation for OOC constraints and make things run smoother.
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Serina Rhea

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2021, 10:53:41 PM »
This is... very much still an issue and continues to become more and more of one...

We are experiencing this issue massively in the Penthouse with the Rhea family members and staff, over at the Lantern Academy's grounds (Shop 2) where not even all the members of our council let alone other instructors have keys, meaning that specific people have to make their way over to allow the place to be used, and also at Harebell Hall were we are having to limit the use of the place for many people involved just because we can't grant them a key.

The rentable spaces are meant to be faction bases, but I can't really imagine how a faction is expected to be limited to 5 key members >-< (pun accidental, but accurate).
For a shop the current limits work well enough, but for cases like the Penthouse and the Lantern Academy (in this case it's more of a foreseen issue) where many people come and go on their own accord constantly, it's really been difficult to manage even with all people with keys being active.

And honestly, I don't see the advantage of a limit on keys in any location, even if it's just a room at Novak's. If it's left with no upper limit that room at Novak's can be used to make a business or smaller faction base. If 20 people choose to live and sleep in a crowded room together that should be fine for them to do?
Perhaps the tenements is a case I can understand would be limited since it's possible to logic that they physically only have so many keys and aren't equiped to manage more, but everywhere else really the limit is just restrictive of rp potential by an odd and arbitrary ooc numerical limit.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 11:03:16 PM by Serina Rhea »

Destinysdesire

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2021, 07:47:48 AM »
I agree to this and I think a different option could be to use @faction to allow people to create factions in game, and then connect rentals to it. Things to consider?

Nuresame

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2021, 07:54:19 AM »
I too wish to add my aggreement that this needs to be increased and maybe some more housing in general serverwide?

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Razzen

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2021, 11:03:24 AM »
This will definitely continue to be a problem, as the active players in D-loo seems to increase and people seek more housing and bases. Therefore it would seem crucial to increase the limit.

Wilkins1952

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2021, 12:38:32 PM »
I agree with this as well increasing the number of keys should do a lot for helping faction bases and player groups actually feel like that.
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Rakiov

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2021, 01:06:34 PM »
I too agree, I think that the number of keys allowed should not be finite and there should be scaling logic for rent to the number of active keys.

Cerynsa

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2021, 02:44:47 PM »
I really hope for more keys too. I think it'd really help player-owned faction rp and make things more convenient overall.

Sir Dally

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2021, 07:35:27 PM »
I need to agree with this as well. I can't think of a mechanical reason to cap them. I rember a few HCR servers that had key printers that led to alot of fun. They deleted after death plane so we couldn't go collecting keys though.
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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2021, 09:00:48 PM »
I'm not much of one for "bases" in general. I think keeping numbers small makes for more options for interaction.... the more to happening behind key locked doors is less interaction that can occur with others. Be it spying or just running into people doing stuff... I think there should be less optio for locking yourself away from the rest of the server.
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NacreCicatrix

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2021, 09:21:48 PM »
I'm not much of one for "bases" in general. I think keeping numbers small makes for more options for interaction.... the more to happening behind key locked doors is less interaction that can occur with others. Be it spying or just running into people doing stuff... I think there should be less optio for locking yourself away from the rest of the server.

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2021, 09:25:54 PM »
Alternatively, let people lock themselves behind doors all they want but get rid of plot-locking and make sure everything has a DC that can be tackled?
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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2021, 09:31:48 PM »
Alternatively, let people lock themselves behind doors all they want but get rid of plot-locking and make sure everything has a DC that can be tackled?
I actually like this idea quite a bit. I think people being able to more effectively spy on other people is always good for RP, and it might provide more interesting RP for antagonists to be able to infiltrate player created faction bases or have their own infiltrated. This would also make them a legal place for a vampire to put a coffin, which could lead to cool scenes.
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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2021, 09:46:15 PM »
Alternatively, let people lock themselves behind doors all they want but get rid of plot-locking and make sure everything has a DC that can be tackled?

This is a great idea.  Barring certain special areas integral to the mystery of the setting, I'd love if all doors could be lockpicked.  Obviously certain places should have varying DCs, but I'd even go so far as to say that allowing doors to Faction bases to be lockpicked would be cool.  After all, if you're not careful you'll get shanked by Faction NPCs.  Of course, steps would also need to be implemented to ensure non-members can't use the Faction merchants and such.



SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2021, 04:08:43 AM »
I'm curious if the developers are actually considering revamping the entire key and lock system to cater to spies. It's hardly a perfect system as it is, but that just goes to show that if they wanted to change it, they would have done so.

I don't really like personal housing either, but this is a very small game world, and you have relatively few options to get away from stealthers you cannot detect or kill with AOEs if they spook you. Right now outrunning them works because locked doors exist. Remove the only obstacle besides a jacked up detection build and their reliability changes rating from solidly dependable to practically infallible.

Faction NPCs will also need to be revamped to attack and/or apprehend characters trespassing on their base, since they will currently not do this. Further, the developers will need to consider if they want automated break-ins to be a feature of the server; this will grant players the justification to kill the NPCs attacking them if they can't sneak past, and easily corner people in their faction's base. The PvP rules would need to be revamped so that you have to have an opt-in on a player member of the faction to even risk going inside, but then you'll see stealthers complaining that the rules are still too strict, because their character's curiosity should be enough to infiltrate a staffed facility full of armed guards.



Further breaking down:

I don't want to see any more "this is my house" rentables in the server. I don't currently believe they are damaging to the server at all, it was never designed to accommodate 100+ people all out and about, but there's really no need for devs to spend time making so much stuff like that to the point everyone gets a permanent home instead of having to resort to taverns, inns, and other travelers' abodes.

I do want to see vampires able to coffin up in their gothic estates. But that's something entirely different. That's a vampire, we get vampires once in a blue moon, and only a handful are regal types. A lot of vampire MPCs are actually just savage fledglings on a brutal blood hunt. Most players already consider them invulnerable to the usual tactics, and this is a point of frustration, although most vampires tend to go on long after their coffin is found due to a combination of awkward game mechanics & courtesy by other players who are more interested in giving story a chance over another shallow PvP win.

The proposed change leans toward the shallow PvP win as far as empowering players, not the story side of things. The side where mechanical power matters the most and if you are having a bad day and decide to stomp someone whose build doesn't stand up to the abuse, they have to suffer the consequences while you move their body once a week at most until their friends get bored of looking.

I like faction bases and I think they create more roleplay than they take away, even in their current state of requiring a DM to break in, and I think that's how it should be until the NPCs are revamped if the developers are interested. Still, I don't believe an entire faction needs keys to get into the base, as convenient as it may be.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 04:17:04 AM by SardineTheAncestor »
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MAB77

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2021, 10:56:19 AM »
Alternatively, let people lock themselves behind doors all they want but get rid of plot-locking and make sure everything has a DC that can be tackled?

While I'm not against that per say, the issue I see is people gaining accesses to features reserved to certain factions: vardo bags, free storage comes to mind.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2021, 11:03:51 AM »
Alternatively, let people lock themselves behind doors all they want but get rid of plot-locking and make sure everything has a DC that can be tackled?

While I'm not against that per say, the issue I see is people gaining accesses to features reserved to certain factions: vardo bags, free storage comes to mind.

The Vardo bags are pretty well-protected and I'm pretty sure the vendor would be hostile to anyone trespassing there in the first place. And anyone sneaking into a location to use their storage must be insane, lol. That's practically closure-worthy depending on the faction.

The threat of a level 20 murdering their way into a faction base to settle a score is something I hadn't considered though.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:06:40 AM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2021, 01:42:01 PM »
This is less about Faction Bases of supported Factions but about Rentals of Player Factions. Certain Doors would still be lockable in this case anyway.
Needing a DM to break into Rentals and Bases you don't own is still the best option because this also makes sure and PvP involved with this is justified and within rules.

But I'm also against unlimited keys. Where should Novak get so many keys? How many keys are gine out for the average hostel room IRL? Three or so. I totally see why they would limit the keys. The shops are rented out as shops. I could imagine raising the key limit, often shops have more than one owner (or a manager) and perhaps a handfull of employees. Warehouses on the other hand I don't see much of a reason why there shouldn't be like 20 keys around. They are warehouses, some workers could be expected to move crates around and all that stuff, they should be considered (ICly) as big business housing.
Also, it's the *Penthouse* meant for some rich person and their few associates, not a giant family.

As for the housing, I also think that most adventurers should not have a solid home. Fewest Exceptions.

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Serina Rhea

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2021, 09:23:55 PM »
This is less about Faction Bases of supported Factions but about Rentals of Player Factions. Certain Doors would still be lockable in this case anyway.
Needing a DM to break into Rentals and Bases you don't own is still the best option because this also makes sure and PvP involved with this is justified and within rules.

But I'm also against unlimited keys. Where should Novak get so many keys? How many keys are gine out for the average hostel room IRL? Three or so. I totally see why they would limit the keys. The shops are rented out as shops. I could imagine raising the key limit, often shops have more than one owner (or a manager) and perhaps a handfull of employees. Warehouses on the other hand I don't see much of a reason why there shouldn't be like 20 keys around. They are warehouses, some workers could be expected to move crates around and all that stuff, they should be considered (ICly) as big business housing.
Also, it's the *Penthouse* meant for some rich person and their few associates, not a giant family.

As for the housing, I also think that most adventurers should not have a solid home. Fewest Exceptions.

Well, I do agree with the needing DM involvement to break into the locked doors being the ideal way to keep this.
As for the "IRL" comparison to things, if you mean to look at it ICly, I don't think the "Shops" are rented out as "Shops" to strictly be shops, just because they have that on their names, they are commercial properties that could be used for any purpose, including being a office building like I believe Fowler and Bloom were using one for ? In which case they may well want each of their associates to have a key.
And for the penthouse, I think it's reasonable to assume a family of this person could be six people, I wouldn't call that a giant family (in fact, historically I would call that a very small family), and I doubt the hotel would have any issues with the family staff having keys to access the penthouse, icly or in any irl comparison you might want to make. We are currently stuck with butlers and maids who can't open the front door for guests or come and go from the very place they are meant to be tending to, it just seems clearly restrictive of their rp. Also just for the sake of saying though, a long term rent on a suite is very different from an overnight stay at a hotel, it's a very different experience and they are very accommodating, to the point of being willing to move internal walls on request.
Either way though, icly keys can simply be made by going to a locksmith, it's not a terribly difficult thing to do, the main logic on the limit of the keys is an ooc matter.


So addressing the ooc matter, does it make more sense for less people to have access to a faction base or for more people to?

Thinking of it another way, would anyone think it's a good idea, if we limited access to each RVT base, to the Theater, too each of the Ezrite churches, to the Erudites society archives to just five keys?
If the idea of limiting the keys to the official player faction bases seems like a bad one, what is the logic behind saying that the player made factions should be more restricted than the official ones?
We are already fighting an up-hill battle to simply exist, support and encouragement for attempting to make RP without dependence on the DM rather than restrictions on these efforts seems like the right thing to do I think?



« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 09:30:24 PM by Serina Rhea »

JaneDoe79

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2021, 06:00:32 AM »
As for the housing, I also think that most adventurers should not have a solid home. Fewest Exceptions.
I'm interested in hearing your reasoning on this.

Kiyosa

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2021, 08:19:29 AM »
I don't mind the number of keys being increased one bit. As mentioned, keys can be duplicated IC, so that aspect is covered. Many people are left without the opportunity to have a rental of any sort, due to the low number of them available. With more keys, those who do own rentals can "share the wealth", so to speak, with those who don't, so the OOC lack of rentals is also somewhat mitigated.

I do have mild objections in regards to rental doors getting a DC for lockpicking though. Spying on others can certainly provide RP, yes, but so can being unable to do so and having to come up with other IC means to acquire information. The vast majority of locations on the server caters to spying as is. The Mist Camp, Outskirts, terraces and various inns etc. are all excellent places for it. As such, rentals have become some of the very few places that are more or less spy-free. Stealthers can still slip in if they do it right and may well stay undetected, since not that many people are willing/able to invest in detection skills/gear. This is why I don't necessarily see the need to make those accessible as well, thus eliminating the already few no-stealth environments available.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 08:33:15 AM by Kiyosa »

Inti

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2021, 12:06:38 PM »
Yes for more keys.

I do not think this is implausible from IC perspective, but the key point for me is OOC practicality:

You have a faction of 12 fairly active people. Only 6 of them have keys, the ones most active at some point.

4 of those get busy IRL and can't be on as much (and it's a logistical pain to even arrange a -temporary- IG key handover just for the 1-2 weeks they are less active, if you side-step the fact that 'we're effectively kicking you out of the faction because you've temporarily got too busy' is a bit awkward) and the other 2 are on a different timezone to the remaining 6, who are currently very active but without keys. So its a debilitating level of IC inconvenience for OOC reasons beyond people's control. Plus, I think pressuring people away due to RL to log in even for a key handover is bad etiquette.

Also, this particularly hits any factions that try to be more inclusive and involve a wider number of people one way or another and who organize themselves in ways that does not hinge on just 1-2 players doing things.

From the perspective of IC realism: the PCs are in the same area most of the time and would be able to coordinate things / one stay in the building most times (fewer keys not a problem), from OOC perspective we are a group of people scattered throughout the globe with randomized RL commitments, logging on when we can (fewer keys a problem).



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CorruptiveAries

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2021, 06:44:13 PM »
I also agree with this as areas being used for a faction, factions have more than 5 people and makes it easier for people to have access. As well for IC and OOC reasons people may not always be available to be around if  access needs to be granted so it would make it easier to ensure that faction members have equal access to areas that are being used for a base.
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Serina Rhea

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Re: Additional Key Capacity in Lucine;
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2021, 10:03:22 PM »
Curious to know if any changes to this are being considered by the dev team?

I think this bit more or less summarized the main point :

"Thinking of it another way, would anyone think it's a good idea if we limited access to each RVT base, to the Theater, to each of the Ezrite churches, to the Erudites society archives to just five keys?
If the idea of limiting the keys to the official player faction bases seems like a bad one, what is the logic behind saying that the player made factions should be more restricted than the official ones?
We are already fighting an up-hill battle to simply exist, support and encouragement for attempting to make RP without dependence on the DM rather than restrictions on these efforts seems like the right thing to do I think?"