Author Topic: New AI and Darkness  (Read 1132 times)

King Pickle

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New AI and Darkness
« on: November 04, 2020, 05:13:27 AM »
While the new AI is an improvement, the spell Darkness is fairly useless against NPC's now.
If you hit enemies with it, they will still know your location and immediately start running at you (even if you are on stealth or under darkness your self.).
If the AI could just be made to evade away from AOE spells instead of knowing your location, that might be better in general anyway.

tylernwn

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2020, 05:25:18 AM »
While the new AI is an improvement, the spell Darkness is fairly useless against NPC's now.
If you hit enemies with it, they will still know your location and immediately start running at you (even if you are on stealth or under darkness your self.).
If the AI could just be made to evade away from AOE spells instead of knowing your location, that might be better in general anyway.

I've used darkness a lot with the new changes. From I can tell the ai will charge your last known location (like when you cast invisibility while fighting). If you walk around a bit in the darkness, they will leave you alone (no stealth required). Works better with multiple darkness spells though. Also if you cast darkness from outside of visual range, then run into it (to get closer) the ai won't see you; which might be the behavior that you are looking for.

However maybe a bug: I've noticed that summons fighting in darkness will sometimes run away from the darkness, even when they have ultravision and can see through it.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 05:34:24 AM by tylernwn »

Asous

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2020, 05:29:39 AM »
I'd assume that changing AI behaviour to walk out of AOE spells without being directed at something or someone would be a lot of work for practically the same effect. I've tested the new changes myself and can completely understand why they were implemented, given how AOE spells were easily abused before.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2020, 05:39:39 AM »
This makes complete sense. The Darkness spell has a verbal component and they would hear you casting it.

AI can't measure preparedness. They don't know if they're capable of fighting you to the death or not; you have the advantage of having been in that exact same situation before. Changing the way they act is less likely to change gameplay surrounding dungeons (people will always find a way to defeat the computer, after all, it has relatively few options short of difficulty walls) than changing AI compositions.

Also, making AI walk out of AOE spells would arguably make them weaker, because they'd have to prioritise it over fighting to have any effect, which means they are essentially disarmed and giving you a +2 AB (possibly provoking AoOs) until they escape the AOE. If it is not prioritised, only one will fight you in the Darkness at a time, because you have no other input for the flow chart than, "Am I being attacked?" which means they'll all flee except the one you are hitting. The catch 22 for them is that they're less likely to escape it than defeat you by simply swarming you and fighting back in almost every situation. Some enemies have been given True Seeing to counter this spell specifically.

There's no perfect way to balance it, short of giving the AI more casters to counter your control spells with their own. Archers in the Curst caverns were implemented partially to diversify enemy roles in this way to make solo characters or less versatile parties a bit more pressured, though obviously that is one change out of many that would be required to make all adventures more challenging, varied, and unpredictable.
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tylernwn

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2020, 05:40:38 AM »
I'd assume that changing AI behaviour to walk out of AOE spells without being directed at something or someone would be a lot of work for practically the same effect. I've tested the new changes myself and can completely understand why they were implemented, given how AOE spells were easily abused before.

Forcing the AI to walk out of AOEs in all cases would also creates new opportunities for abuse; like standing in your own AOEs to avoid danger.

My experience has been that the AI already walks out of AOEs. However there are specific circumstances that override this behavior.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 05:50:36 AM by tylernwn »

zDark Shadowz

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2020, 10:48:40 PM »
The AI hasn't changed, they used to run out of AoEs already.

Played a control/conjuration druid that relied on archery due to her unbuffed AC of 13. Killing some higher end targets has never been a sure thing, much to the annoyance of groups that followed me expecting me to do all the work.

If you are concealed from view but make noise, whether in invisibility or darkness then you make noise. If you can't see an enemy then for some reason you don't trigger the MS checks, so they don't come running, its just how its always rolled.

AI walking out of AoEs doesn't make them weaker. They need to stay out of darkness so they arent flatfooted, creeping doom, stonehold, web, grease, acid fogs etc etc. It cripples them heavily, best they exit it and wait for those spells to time out, and sometimes the exit pathing sets them en route to attack you from a new angle.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2020, 10:52:21 PM by zDark Shadowz »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2020, 01:02:23 AM »
That assumes they can path out of the AOEs in the first place. Pathfinding in this game is notoriously poor, especially when they aren't even able to detect a safe tile to stand on that isn't affected by an AOE and go right to it.

My experience with AI running away is that they are even weaker than if they tried to fight. Many of the dungeons on this server are tight corridors with no escape from large enough AOEs, let alone Misted Magic. It's also unlike them to wait it out and the lack of ranged/caster enemies means they're just getting split up and taken down one by one with no challenge.

But, for the most part, they don't bother. They slog through it or fight, using true sight if they have it. The AI is much too simple and changing it wouldn't be as effective as giving them more options to fight back with.
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Philos

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2020, 01:17:48 AM »
The AI hasn't changed, they used to run out of AoEs already.

Changelog - October 30th 2020 Version BETA 2.24h title "Halloween."

Area, Item and NPC changes:

- Set up the module for the Play-A-New-Character event.

Scripting and System changes:

- Made AI better able to handle hostile area-of-effect spells when caster is outside view.

Maffa

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2020, 05:00:11 AM »
Id like to remind that shadow fiend run away from their own darkness spells because they forget to cast/ chatacter wont let them cast ultravision...


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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2020, 07:04:41 AM »
I feel like they should just have Darkvision since it's in the Monster Manual.
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Maffa

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2020, 11:22:15 AM »
I already mentioned it in the "Erroneous creatures" thread, but i think ive been told this is working as intende, and since it's a source of enormous merriment to me seeing them escaping from a spell they just cast I'm happy this way  :lol:


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Philos

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2020, 01:26:42 PM »
I'm not sure off hand if they're setup with Dark vision, however it's a moot point. Darkvison/Low Light Vison will not pierce magical darkness. TS, Ultravison and Vision of the Omniscient Eye will though. It might make sense just to have them prebuff one of those.

Maffa

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2020, 01:40:49 PM »
The point is that they cast Darkness before buffing themselves, but since they aim at you, if you are or run near them they'll be under their own AoE, and if you have blind fighting and prevent them from casting the vision magic they'll panic out of their own spell...


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tylernwn

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2020, 01:46:50 PM »
The point is that they cast Darkness before buffing themselves, but since they aim at you, if you are or run near them they'll be under their own AoE, and if you have blind fighting and prevent them from casting the vision magic they'll panic out of their own spell...

Well they only have 6 intelligence. Maybe its them fighting in character?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2020, 02:04:04 PM »
I'm not sure off hand if they're setup with Dark vision, however it's a moot point. Darkvison/Low Light Vison will not pierce magical darkness. TS, Ultravison and Vision of the Omniscient Eye will though. It might make sense just to have them prebuff one of those.
It'd solve them running scared from their own effects at least, which was probably not intended.

Then they can cast another spell instead upon spotting enemies.  :mrgreen:
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: New AI and Darkness
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2020, 04:07:21 PM »
In general, AI will move to the last known location if something hostile vanishes (and no other relevant targets exists).

But in addition, even if the AI cannot see the enemy, they will still react to hearing enemies which also leads them to move to the location of the sound. And darkness does not make you inaudible.

Could this explain what you are experiencing?