Author Topic: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs  (Read 829 times)

Curbstone Trappings

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Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« on: November 03, 2020, 02:20:00 AM »
Perhaps this is not universally regarded as a bug, but given that instant-death spells like Drown, Stop Heart and even Finger of Death will all put a PC into bleedout state instead of outright killing them, it seems to me that Evard's Black Tentacles aggressively ending the life of anyone that falls down within it is a design oversight.

There might also be other AoE spells doing the same. I am not sure and perhaps someone else can bring light to it.
Regardless, I would appreciate and suggest the behavior of this spell to be changed! It is frustrating as the victim and it can be equally frustrating even as the caster, if they were hoping to get some RP in before killing the target or to capture them alive.

Phantasia

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 03:13:11 AM »
This is working as intended... ground damage will continue to damage someone even if they are unconscious as much as if that unconscious person was sitting on top of a blade barrier being impaled and turned into mince meat.
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Curbstone Trappings

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 04:50:58 AM »
Then I simply suggest for the team to reconsider. If the consensus was that insta-death wasn't fun for Finger of Death, the same would apply to Evard's. Just personally and anecdotally it wasn't when I was hit with it and it wasn't when I tried to catch someone with my own. But this topic can be moved to suggestions if there is a need!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 04:54:43 AM by Curbstone Trappings »

Phantasia

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 05:37:41 AM »
Constant ground damage and an instant death spell are not comparable. While I don't agree that spells like Finger of Death should take you to unconscious if you're just going to kill your target anyway, I can see why it is done, and that is to adhere to the bleed out system in place. There is also such a thing as 'death by massive force,' and this applies to spells as well that do enough damage.

Persistent area of effect damage is just a feature of the spells in question. The spell still knocks you unconscious, but it will also kill you shortly after. If your intent is to knock your target unconscious then perhaps other spells should be used?

Then again perhaps certain spells and what they do once taken to zero hit points should be re-evaluated, or subdual could be improved upon regarding spells to make them non-lethal? This wasn't possible in the past due to elemental damage causing the player-character to die, but with EE, maybe there's new potential. Then again, in fact, I believe it's intended for people to still take damage from subdual if they have elemental damage on their weapons. There's no really holding back spells, anyway.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 05:51:13 AM by Phantasia »
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 05:53:30 AM »
Select AOEs could be set to a "nonlethal" mode where they don't harm people on the ground. But acid fogs, incendiary clouds, and poison gasses generally do not stop harming someone when they are no longer conscious. Maybe the tentacles summoned by this spell would stop, but the amount of spells that are like this are in the minority.

We do lack non-lethal PvP options, this is true, but think of the thousands of hours of developer work required to make things more dramatic by dragging them out more like an action movie. No blanket change will do; even tripling the hitpoints of every character has consequences. A complete rework of the game's combat system would be necessary, and just as many people would end up disliking the finished product as people who think the current system is contrived and anti-fun.

There's an idea that continuity is more solid if someone doesn't have to say they were killed repeatedly by an opposing force and so on. Though, if one hopes to dialogue/emote with a victim before killing them, they should probably not attack them. It's kind of hard to type back to someone when you're trying to escape something that can leave your character dead or helpless in 2-3 rounds.
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PlatointheCave

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 06:30:16 AM »
I agree with Trappings.

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2020, 07:59:01 AM »
I don't see why Black Tentacles should be in any way nonlethal.

From the 3e SRD:
"...Also, they cause 1d6 points of normal damage (+4 for Strength), not subdual damage. A tentacle maintains its grapple even after its subject is dying or dead."

Rainor

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2020, 08:09:48 AM »
This is working as intended... ground damage will continue to damage someone even if they are unconscious as much as if that unconscious person was sitting on top of a blade barrier being impaled and turned into mince meat.

I remember being killed by Blade Barrier not too long ago, though I was able to remain in the bleedout state despite being ontop of it.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2020, 08:56:33 AM »
With some AOEs it might need to overkill successfully to do the trick; succeeding the overkill save might mean survival in this case.

But we all know this game. It could be inconsistent across the board. The few times I've seen people attacked with cloud spells in PvP, they generally died in them before reaching the edge, and the massive damage always impaired them.

I'd expect the devs to stick to source material on this one, and only change it if they want to filter in new non-lethal PvP options. There's merit to the idea but there's merits for the argument against it too.
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Siobhan

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2020, 12:03:34 PM »
Someone being a corpse doesn't mean the RP is over!

Raising people with consumables, NPCs, or a cleric are all options for someone intent on using AOEs to capture their enemies.
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Kaninchen

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2020, 01:09:26 PM »
This is working as intended... ground damage will continue to damage someone even if they are unconscious as much as if that unconscious person was sitting on top of a blade barrier being impaled and turned into mince meat.

I remember being killed by Blade Barrier not too long ago, though I was able to remain in the bleedout state despite being ontop of it.

Can confirm, was present for this, and was able to toss a heal at them. I think there is a save that can get made, even while bleeding out in the barrier, because another member of that dungeon experience did bleed out, while laying on top of the on-going blade barrier. Though I didn't ask the player if that is what corpsed her.

As to the issue of evards...I would highly suggest playing a halfling :-D

Getting done in by effects when it feels like there wasn't any counter-play certainly isn't a fun experience, but it's certainly a thing in the setting, and in 3e mechanics in general, I believe.  An interesting interaction a friend had in a dungeon was having drown cast on them, putting them in bleed-out, and then having a monster cast phantasmal killer, corpsing him. There was some amount of rage, and laughter, about it at the time.

Best advice I can give in this situation is don't be in a situation where a mage is casting Evards at you. Consider if you opted into pvp stuff. And learn which monsters IC can cast Evards, and do so, so you can plan for them with things likes, stoneskin, or maybe ghostly visage.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 01:11:54 PM by Kaninchen »

Drekavac

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Re: Evard's Black Tentacles corpses bleeding PCs
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2020, 02:37:21 PM »
It works inconsistently. Sometimes it will corpse other times it will knock you to bleed out, I have tested this.
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