Author Topic: Whips!  (Read 1390 times)

Ashbringer85

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Whips!
« on: October 21, 2020, 06:14:38 AM »
They aren't good at all right now. I use one for RP but considering the disarm feat for free being the best thing about them they are more like RP items on Ravenloft which is fine. The   Scourge is a weapon which is basically a whip but has 1d8 damage which is actually pretty good, considering you need an exotic weapons feat to even use a whip it would be nice if it was at least more useful. I think they maybe they can have more enchants...but not sure how you balance items whether its by level, gold or just no more than X - stats.

Its just a thought that crossed my mind as I always carry a whip due to my character being a cleric of Loviatar and its an item that would be nice to get more use of. If I am honest it probably wouldn't be worth it unless it was an easy change to make.

Agony

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 5633
  • "You will know agony!" - Ghostly Armor
Re: Whips!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2020, 10:20:30 AM »
There are some whips to be found that are better than the basic one. You just need to explore to find some you can buy, or perhaps try talking to PC merchants about seeking one.


Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Whips!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2020, 10:26:32 AM »
If possible, removing the Exotic Weapons proficiency requirement would be an improvement, as a whip does seem largely an RP prop.

I suspect that can't be changed.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 10:28:27 AM by Iridni Ren »

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Destinysdesire

  • Vallaki Guards
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Whips!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2020, 10:37:02 AM »
If possible, removing the Exotic Weapons proficiency requirement would be an improvement, as a whip does seem largely an RP prop.

I suspect that can't be changed.

if they cant...Rings that grant exotic weap prof can be made. Many servers do this to overcome that issue.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Whips!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 10:42:14 AM »
If possible, removing the Exotic Weapons proficiency requirement would be an improvement, as a whip does seem largely an RP prop.

I suspect that can't be changed.

if they cant...Rings that grant exotic weap prof can be made. Many servers do this to overcome that issue.

*nod* The ring might also have an imaginative penalty (cf. blacksmith's apron), if balance is a concern.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Iluvatar / Madness

  • Ex-Community Council
  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 3487
  • The Madness
Re: Whips!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 11:42:09 AM »
If possible, removing the Exotic Weapons proficiency requirement would be an improvement, as a whip does seem largely an RP prop.

I suspect that can't be changed.

if they cant...Rings that grant exotic weap prof can be made. Many servers do this to overcome that issue.

*nod* The ring might also have an imaginative penalty (cf. blacksmith's apron), if balance is a concern.

A ring like that obviously would be a balance issue. Adding penalty like the blacksmith's apron on the ring would be counter productive in this case as the issue being raised is the whip not being good enough. Also, even if we did at some point decide to add in a ring like that, it wouldn't be only for the whip as exotic weapon include more than just the whip.

That said, I don't think we're going to add a ring like this for obvious balance issue.
Iluvatar
Iluvatar-2
Iluvatar NCE
Madness

Purist

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2281
Re: Whips!
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2020, 12:05:06 PM »
Whips give "disarm" for free, but everyone already gets that. Can they instead give "improved disarm"?

Disorder

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Whips!
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2020, 12:55:31 PM »
As someone who had seen plenty of various items from the loot tables I actually disagree with thread author's statement. There are many whips in loot tables, some decent ones available in novice dungeons as possible reward. There are .. acid, sonic, fire whips. There is whip with +1 bonus against most common player character races with 1d4 damage against those races atop of it. There are whips with various on hit effects, not super strong, but viable. There are also cheap, very cheap whips available early on with additional 1d8 (?, I may be wrong and it's 1d6) piercing and bludgeon damage. We don't have nearly as many diverse and easily avaialble bastard swords, kamas, katanas or scythes if we'll look at other exotic weapons as we have whips.
What's even better about whips that it is not difficult to obtain one (the one that would be the best or close to the best for your build/class split or a current purpose) - just check vistani traders frequently. Sooner or later you'll find one you like the most.

But!!!

Improved disarm on whip. When? That was discussed in discord, there are much older topics with the same suggestion on forums.

Another thing I am curious about myself is ... are there craftable whips? I asked in discord while I've been planning upcoming NCE pc and got no reply. I assume there are no craftable whips, so there won't be any enchanted, which is lame

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Whips!
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 01:02:54 PM »
Spoiler: show
If possible, removing the Exotic Weapons proficiency requirement would be an improvement, as a whip does seem largely an RP prop.

I suspect that can't be changed.

if they cant...Rings that grant exotic weap prof can be made. Many servers do this to overcome that issue.

*nod* The ring might also have an imaginative penalty (cf. blacksmith's apron), if balance is a concern.


A ring like that obviously would be a balance issue. Adding penalty like the blacksmith's apron on the ring would be counter productive in this case as the issue being raised is the whip not being good enough. Also, even if we did at some point decide to add in a ring like that, it wouldn't be only for the whip as exotic weapon include more than just the whip.

That said, I don't think we're going to add a ring like this for obvious balance issue.

This is exactly what I'm saying and hence the comparison to the blacksmith's apron :)

The blacksmith's apron exists to make certain items that serve a different function usable even though they require the martial proficiency. It has maluses because Devs don't want it being used to achieve the feat in other circumstances.

Similarly, some item could grant exotic proficiency to allow the equipping and using of the whip for RP purposes. (I was not arguing that it be made a better weapon.) As with the blacksmith's apron, it would need to have a malus so that using it to say, equip a gun, not be feasible.

Ideally, the whip could be made non-exotic. Since a smith's hammer can't be changed, however, I assume the same is true for a whip.

If we want to improve the whip as a weapon, giving it improved disarm seems the obvious choice. But since that has been suggested several times in the past and never done, I assume that's for balance reasons as well.

(And after learning recently how disarm actually works versus discipline, can't say I support anything that further imbalances disarm/knockdown as feats.)

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Kaninchen

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Whips!
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 05:18:17 PM »
As someone who had seen plenty of various items from the loot tables I actually disagree with thread author's statement. There are many whips in loot tables, some decent ones available in novice dungeons as possible reward. There are .. acid, sonic, fire whips. There is whip with +1 bonus against most common player character races with 1d4 damage against those races atop of it. There are whips with various on hit effects, not super strong, but viable. There are also cheap, very cheap whips available early on with additional 1d8 (?, I may be wrong and it's 1d6) piercing and bludgeon damage. We don't have nearly as many diverse and easily avaialble bastard swords, kamas, katanas or scythes if we'll look at other exotic weapons as we have whips.
What's even better about whips that it is not difficult to obtain one (the one that would be the best or close to the best for your build/class split or a current purpose) - just check vistani traders frequently. Sooner or later you'll find one you like the most.

But!!!

Improved disarm on whip. When? That was discussed in discord, there are much older topics with the same suggestion on forums.

Another thing I am curious about myself is ... are there craftable whips? I asked in discord while I've been planning upcoming NCE pc and got no reply. I assume there are no craftable whips, so there won't be any enchanted, which is lame

Whips are not craftable, and therefore not enchantable, which is large reason why they aren't widely used, I'd say.

The topic of whips has come up a few times in my stay at PoTM, and I've not seen any indication from Devs they wish to make them better.
We can be happy they did get the dual wield treatment when guns were, so as to be held in the off hand at least. 

I'm perfectly fine with them being a meme weapon. It helps illustrate how ludicrous Toothpick all the more.

Favee

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
Re: Whips!
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 08:29:39 PM »
It seems every month or two we get a thread about Whips, and their availability.   As HighPrimate posted, there are a ton of Whips.  One of my characters almost exclusively uses whips in high level content.   They're okay at best.

Craftable whips would be interesting, but with the current way enchanted weapons are balanced, the crafted Whips would either be worse than the other whips or so far and away better that it makes the rest useless.
Discord: Favee#4934

White

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Whips!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2020, 06:37:48 AM »
Personally i'd just make it so that whips either all got improved disarm, or special inbuilt feature that gives a +4 score when attempting to disarm.
Easiest mechanical implementation would just be to upgrade disarm to improved disarm.. thus allowing whips to have a decent bonus as they previously had.

Iridni Ren

  • L'injustice à la fin produit l'indépendance.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4374
  • When all other lights go out
Re: Whips!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2020, 08:41:58 AM »
Alternatively instead of buffing whips and thus giving into power creep, go back to vanilla NWN and make it so not everyone gets Disarm as a automatic level-1 feat. It's supposed to be another feat requiring 13 Int. That would make whips more valuable. No one can argue we don't get plenty of feats here as is.

Item:

Heels of Loviatar

This black and polished footwear was favored by priests of Loviatar because it granted the ability to use many instruments and weapons of torture with greater skill. The polished black luster and sharp and pointed heels indicate a cruel and domineering owner, but those heels also require much practice before the wearer can move in them with speed or coordination.

Grants Exotic Weapon Proficiency

Dodge AC Penalty: -6

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.

Ashbringer85

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Whips!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2020, 08:49:37 AM »
Quote
I'm perfectly fine with them being a meme weapon. It helps illustrate how ludicrous Toothpick all the more.

If your lumping the scourge in with that...I would argue they are far from a meme weapon and actually pretty deadly. The Drow high priestess Quenethel Baerne used a enchanted one that had snakes instead of normal barbs.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scourge_of_fangs
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 08:51:32 AM by Ashbringer85 »

Ashbringer85

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Whips!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2020, 08:53:50 AM »
Alternatively instead of buffing whips and thus giving into power creep, go back to vanilla NWN and make it so not everyone gets Disarm as a automatic level-1 feat. It's supposed to be another feat requiring 13 Int. That would make whips more valuable. No one can argue we don't get plenty of feats here as is.

Item:

Heels of Loviatar

This black and polished footwear was favored by priests of Loviatar because it granted the ability to use many instruments and weapons of torture with greater skill. The polished black luster and sharp and pointed heels indicate a cruel and domineering owner, but those heels also require much practice before the wearer can move in them with speed or coordination.

Grants Exotic Weapon Proficiency

Dodge AC Penalty: -6

Even without stats or feats...or anything my character would still wear these!

tylernwn

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 544
Re: Whips!
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2020, 04:50:01 PM »
There are a lot of really strong whips in game. It seems like the mediocre-ness of whips was compensated for with higher quality items in game.

EO

  • Assistant Head DM/Developer
  • Head DMs
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 22469
  • The one and only, the one everyone wants to be!
Re: Whips!
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2020, 09:55:00 PM »
We'll give whips Improved Disarm instead of Disarm.

slash

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 744
Re: Whips!
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2020, 02:47:40 AM »
Instead of giving Weapon Proficiency: Exotic, why not just make an item that gives Weapon Proficiency: Whip?
"My soul is overflowing with obeisant reverence, and Your Most Illustrious Excellency of benignity, to you I most humbly bow." -Francesco Ferdinando Alfieri.

JustMonika

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1886
Re: Whips!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2020, 04:13:41 AM »
While EO's intervention has once again saved the day, worth noting to the above that AC-6 on boots for Exotic Weapon Proficency would be great for firearms, given if you're using a gun you don't want to be being hit.

An AB penality would be much better in the circumstances.

But horay! Improved Disarm.

Ashbringer85

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Whips!
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2020, 07:21:57 AM »
This is awesome news! Thanks EO!