Reduced RP XP feature is redundant

[A Humble Priestess]

I recently reached a fairly high level on a character of mine only to learn about the system that lowers RP XP for roleplaying in an area trafficked primarily by low levels. I find this feature extremely bizarre and out of place. I should preface this by saying I'm not bothered about getting immense XP gains, powerleveling or anything of the sort, and actually really quite enjoy how stingy this server is with XP—it keeps most characters weak and monster fearing, as is appropriate for the setting. But I remain so very perplexed by this feature that does nothing but de-incentivise roleplay in certain areas. There are typically far less players in areas such as the Mist Camp and Dementlieu, and very often my friends wish to roleplay in Barovia, and I have no idea why I should be punished, however incrementally, for wishing to join them. Obviously, there's nothing stopping me from going to them, and I would go wherever I wished even if XP wasn't rewarded for roleplay: as aforementioned, I am not seeking to powerlevel in any way, I am merely mystified as to why there would be an anti-roleplay feature of any kind on a roleplay server.

I presume its purpose is to encourage high levels to frequent high level areas, but I can only scratch my head as surely the fact that very few monsters in Barovia offer me experience when killed is reason enough for me to seek adventures elsewhere. When I return to Barovia, it will almost certainly be solely for RP purposes, and though I don't particularly care for what is likely a very insignificant amount of experience to begin with, I just cannot ignore how redundant this mechanic seems. I would almost be more comfortable with RP XP, or even XP in general, being penalized past a certain level—I wouldn't like it, per say, but it would make more sense to me than this strange "don't roleplay here" mechanic. I fully understand the desire to not have a bunch of high levels hanging around low level zones at all times, but I do not think this mechanic does much to prevent that at all, and serves only to punish those higher levels seeking purely to roleplay and not exploit their mechanical power in order to some way devalue the starting experience. If anything, perhaps a higher experience reward for roleplay would make more sense as it would deter high levels from stomping about and trivializing everything for new players, though really I think it makes the most sense were the reward equalized for all areas.

And again, I will insist, I don't particularly care for levelling quickly, I merely wish to flag up how this mechanic serves so little purpose.

[Kaninchen]

Well just hold your horses, because in a few levels, you'll get to a point where you get zero exp on the west side of the mist wall!

As you've said, the intent it to encourage higher levels to go away from the starting area. However, it doesn't always have teh desired effect, as if people want to RP in Vallaki, they are going to RP in Vallaki, and not care about OOC exp shenanigans. 

It has been railed against by players off and on, in the 16 months I've played on the server, and hasn't changed, so I'm inclined to say it's a feature the devs are going to leave intact.

[manyconsonants]

Yeah, it has been discussed before and it appears to be a feature that is here to stay. I understand the reasoning behind even if I do not agree. I play a character who is centered in Barovia with the Church of Ezra, who is prohibited from adventuring/helping people not of the faith and as a result of this I have pretty much roleplayed for all of my XP from level 2-11. The fact that I am going to get less RP XP from 12 is hard but I feel I could live with that. But no rp XP from 14 just feels far too restrictive to me especially when plenty of people whose characters are not so restrictive are able to adventure and dungeon away from Barovia and return with higher levels.

[Iridni Ren]

The system is unpopular and ineffectual (cue response of "we have statistics"), but it's not going anywhere.

Keep in mind from a player perspective, however, that it's also more a counterproductive nuisance than anything to fret over. If you want to level in any reasonable time after you hit double digits or so, you have to go dungeon grind, regardless of whether that fits your character or not. Since you say you don't care about that, turn the messages off and just ignore the discouragement to RP they otherwise offer.

[Crowl]

It is as Iridni says. If you want to progress after that level your only choice is to leave Barovia. I am myself a little bit turned off at that for all the people whose RP is based around Barovia or simply that is the setting they enjoy the most for it's ambiance. There is no other 'medieval gothic horror' setting hub anywhere else that does give RP XP to characters to solve this, either.

Your only options are the Mists Camp, which I don't feel it's really an option. And Dementlieu, which his starkly different to Barovia and you might as well be playing a different game.

You have to dungeon grind, regardless of whether that fits your character or not. Instead of RP XP, the closest, realistic advice I can give you is to grind until you reach the 'blind drive' point and once you've squeezed every drop you think you can get just go back to RP normally while you wait for it to trickle down again.

[JustMonika]

I am not a fan of this as well. I would more understand cutting RP XP after a certain level entirely than having it specifically cut in certain areas.

The last thing I want is people being all like;

'I don't feel like I'm learning anything standing here in Barovia. Let's go stand in the mist camp and do exactly the same thing, I could learn from that!'

[Glowfire]

[...] I am not seeking to powerlevel in any way, I am merely mystified as to why there would be an anti-roleplay feature of any kind on a roleplay server.

[...] I do not think this mechanic does much to prevent that at all, and serves only to punish those higher levels seeking purely to roleplay and not exploit their mechanical power in order to some way devalue the starting experience.

This is one of the things that I dislike as well. It's a topic that keeps coming up and it seems to always have a 'it is working as intended' answer which I find disappointing, because in my view, for a roleplay server it's very strange to penalize people who roleplay but the rewards for killing monsters stay the same. I can't get that to make sense.

It wouldn't be wholly bad for the people who wanted to RP in Barovia if the Village of Barovia was further developed but it isn't and won't be. Nor does it seem like Hazlan, Har'akir etc will be developed further and have crafting stations, banks and storage. Dementlieu is a setting I personally enjoy and I have another PC based there. I have a higher level PC who's unsuitable for that RP scene however. Nor is Dementlieu as developed as it could be. The underworld doesn't have a bank or storage, the ways into the city are also limited if you don't want to walk past the front gate and the sewer entrance is barred for some reason (Gendarme checkpoint). There's groups of players who are being told to pretty much RP elsewhere without that 'elsewhere' being developed enough. Mist Camp has some crafting stations but it's not enough for an actual crafter. Nor would all characters want to roleplay out as 'living in the Mists'. I like to make my characters feel part of settings, I want one of my PCs to be setting up a home in Barovia because that's what they would do IC - but OOC messages are telling me I shouldn't and they should move on to places which are wholly unsuitable. I don't like the mentality behind all of that. Not to mention how detrimental it is to some faction roleplay which is also repeatedly mentioned in threads like these. Is a Barovian Morninglord PC meant to go and spread the faith in Port-a-Lucine upon reaching lvl 12-14...?


If devs don't want to remove the RP xp cap in full, I think players would at least be more content with it being left at half-way. Meaning that after lvl 12 there's diminished RP XP but there's no level where it is fully cut off (it's cut off at 14 currently).

The last thing I want is people being all like;

'I don't feel like I'm learning anything standing here in Barovia. Let's go stand in the mist camp and do exactly the same thing, I could learn from that!'

...I have sort of encountered that.

[mappinger]

Your only options are the Mists Camp, which I don't feel it's really an option. And Dementlieu, which his starkly different to Barovia and you might as well be playing a different game.

Has there ever been substantial talk about what a hub would look like (that is not the Village of Barovia) that contains a stronger gothic medieval vibe for characters over, say, level 10, and would be remotely feasible from a design/time/resources standpoint?

I observe what you are saying. The Mist Camp has a soothing and rich Vistani element, but its real benefit is one of pragmatism: a place to meet-in-the-middle, rather than having any ties to realm going-ons/culture and horrific events in the same way the outskirts does.

As for Dementlieu/Port, there is something to be said for its culture, but it is one that is counter-intuitive to many characters to want to be around for long.

[Iridni Ren]

'I don't feel like I'm learning anything standing here in Barovia. Let's go stand in the mist camp and do exactly the same thing, I could learn from that!'

For those of you who may be newer than the change, the old system used to operate based more on who you were RPing with, rather than the location. If a zone had mostly high levels in it, high levels received RP XP. But if the average level was low, you received less. That system had its issues too, but it at least felt IMO more justifiable than what you have captured pretty succinctly with your example.

Anyway, I don't think Devs are open to changing this, so I'm not going to bring out all the reasons I have in the past (multiple times) for disliking it. I will reiterate, however, that in effect it is mostly an annoying message.

If you RP exclusively, you are going to level very, very slowly (unless receiving XP rewards from DM events perhaps) at high levels anyhow. I have RP'd and RP'd and RP'd when on trivial/last little bit in Port and elsewhere where you receive full RP XP, got great XP messages, and it has never seemed equal to going with a group to Ghastria as far as moving the ticker.

Crowl's post is pretty much the workaround.

[FinalHeaven]

Full restriction on Roleplay XP on a Roleplay server is bad.

[Revenant]

The answer the design promotes is either play a character compatible with the French Renaissance, or closure your character at 14. I don't consider Mist Camp existence to be a true option, since despite being an intentional hub it is borderline unmoored from the setting.

The often stated position regarding any other hubs is that they're not coming, whether to avoid splitting our tiny playerbase or because other hubs are deemed to offer nothing new. That's just for turning an existing area into a hub; a new hub also has the problem of requiring massive amounts of work, though a person can always dream of the rumored near-complete Zeidenburg.

As Iridni says, I wouldn't expect change on this one. Make do with getting your XP off of ventures from the dungeon train station before returning to where your roleplay primarily takes place, join the French Renaissance, or enjoy being a True Roleplayer and sticking to low-mid levels.

[Hathor]

I've literally heard people in the mist camp say out loud, IC, that they're getting closer to their next spell level by standing around talking.

The current system is what it is, but at the very least RP XP desperately needs to be removed from the mist camp. For goodness sake, encourage the Vine to be a hub or something, the mist camp should not be a permanent home where PCs can infinitely level up simply by squatting in the poor Vistani's homes.

[Purist]

It has been to my understanding that a big reason for this lvl 14 cap is to push such PCs away from the starting areas. While I understand that a lvl 16 fully geared PC standing in the outskirts at night helps to degrade the "horror atmosphere" that is sought in Vallaki... I don't feel like limiting RP solves it at all. As suggested in this thread, ppl can just go abroad get insane XP from dungeoning then come back and do the same "night standing" in the outskirts. While those that have no reason to do the same are stalled in their progression.

What needs to happen, IMO, is to make the difficulty escalate to overcome such daring people. A level 16 refuses to get inside even after the Mists (DMs) are clearly about to bring something nasty into the area? Spawn some impossible creatures and kill the bold high level for being totally fearless from Old Night. And add some consequences to dying in such fashion.

[Plunger]

I know the reasoning behind it is to separate the high and low levels, but it really doesn’t stop every level 15-20 from zipping to Vallaki the second a new MPC appears on the scene and standing guard at night until they inevitably stomp them. Especially true for level 20’s who don’t even need exp anyways.

Seems like that might be the real issue that needs discussing.

[diestormlie]

I do agree that the system isn't actually serving it's core function, that of keeping the higher level PCs away from Barovia. And further, the Preponderance of high level PCs hanging around Vallaki is, I think, detrimental to the theme/setting/'feel' of the server.

And the way to solve that problem, to me, is to depower Vallaki. Take away out it's bounties of crafting stations, perhaps. Do more DM things elsewhere. But I don't know if it's a problem that can be solved, really.

Other than that, I don't know what else I can add.

[Iridni Ren]

The issue has been discussed every time this comes up, too.

A high level does not need to be disruptive, nor should a player be penalized for having played the game for a long time successfully. High levels can mentor good behavior for truly new players to the setting.

The assumption should not be that low levels are innately excellent RPers and high levels are innately detrimental to their RP. I have observed far more bad behavior (as one would expect) from new players in the Outskirts from those unfamiliar with the server and its rules. Likewise, when I have played AMPCs during NCEs and had access to the monster boards, monstrous characters are far more likely to complain about low levels who refuse to engage in a scene or run into the temple, get healed up, and pop back out immediately than being stomped by a high level.

High level PCs want to be where the action is, as do we all. The presence of high levels in a zone certainly can make it feel less dangerous, however, and high levels, I think, are obligated to be mindful of that. So they have to consider is their RP enriching the experience of others or diminishing it. And adjust accordingly.

[PlatointheCave]

I do not find the analysis of existing statistics compelling.

Different numbers of present high level PCs tells us nothing about the qualitative effects of the mechanic. It is incorrect to point to raw numbers and conclude that higher level interference with lower level stories is being achieved in any meaningful way.

Consider the following scenario:

I want to reduce the environmental impact of my citizens when they travel. I reason that incentivising use of public transport will reduce the number of cars on the road and therefore the emissions of travelers over all.  So I implement subsidies for public transport use. I collect data on car use and find that since my program has been implemented, the overall number of cars on the road has declined. Does this mean I have reduced traveler emissions? Not necessarily.

Perhaps the parts of my population that are inclined to take advantage of my subsidies are also those that already practiced things like carpooling. Perhaps they already favoured electric vehicles. Perhaps I have actually achieved my goal. But my point here is that the numbers alone do not prove that my system has reduced the environmental impact of travelers. I'd need more data about the characteristics of my population to begin to make those sorts of conclusions.

Consider this in the context of removing RPXP. Those that wish to be there for narrative reasons, choose to be there for reasons other than XP gain. The system only pushes those that are dungeon oriented away. Those same PCs are not and have never been the problem. So we can see a reduction in high levels overall, but not necessarily an impact on the quality of play and story. This also means those that have stories tied to Vallaki will not progress from even years of meaningful roleplay.

I understand we've a community of volunteers, and experience with statistical analysis isn't something that should be required to contribute. But I do not think the statistical claims that have been made in the past in any way prove the efficacy of the system. Certainly, I would say an attentive qualitative analysis would be more effective for that. Like community feedback in the many threads that get started on this topic.

[Kamfrenchie]

I've literally heard people in the mist camp say out loud, IC, that they're getting closer to their next spell level by standing around talking.

The current system is what it is, but at the very least RP XP desperately needs to be removed from the mist camp. For goodness sake, encourage the Vine to be a hub or something, the mist camp should not be a permanent home where PCs can infinitely level up simply by squatting in the poor Vistani's homes.

Afaik they dont want that, since the village of Barovia is supposed to be so depressing and unsettling that no one wants to stay there if they can help it.

[Destinysdesire]

Another part of the bigger problem, while I am grateful for MPCs....they "only" come to Vallaki....so of course...anyone that wants involvement....is gonna go to Vallaki.

[Wargtimmen]

Normally I wouldn't be at Vallaki to avoid preventing gothic horror ambience and challenge. However, the current MPCs have a lot to do with the story of my character. So for rp wise I have to stay in Vallaki until our story done with these MPCs. My character is in this story line for nearly four months.  Actually, although the story ended a while ago, this process took a long time for me as the MPCs that came out of the story directly concern my character.  And in this process, I cannot leave here. I guess there is nothing to do in such cases.

[foxtale]

I have a character that considers herself a part of Barovia and the system feels like a punishment for my commitment to a coherent story and psychology. This feeling is often worse than the presence of high levels feels.

Does anyone else feel the same?
Because if that is the case to a larger degree, the system was a failure even if there are fewer high level PCs.

[Hathor]

I have a character that considers herself a part of Barovia and the system feels like a punishment for my commitment to a coherent story and psychology. This feeling is often worse than the presence of high levels feels.

Does anyone else feel the same?
Because if that is the case to a larger degree, the system was a failure even if there are fewer high level PCs.

This was how I felt on Vicar Sorokina.

[Plunger]

Is it not part of the intent of the reduced XP system to lock Barovian based characters to a level that is more appropriate to the region and atmosphere? If you level to 20 from RP XP in Vallaki you effectively level yourself out of the fair level range for the region.

If you’re playing a dedicated Barovian there doesn’t really seem to be a reason to hit 20, it seems more like an Epic 6 solution to that.

[Iridni Ren]

I have a character that considers herself a part of Barovia and the system feels like a punishment for my commitment to a coherent story and psychology. This feeling is often worse than the presence of high levels feels.

Does anyone else feel the same?
Because if that is the case to a larger degree, the system was a failure even if there are fewer high level PCs.

It happened with Iridni and the WFK.

[foxtale]

Is it not part of the intent of the reduced XP system to lock Barovian based characters to a level that is more appropriate to the region and atmosphere? If you level to 20 from RP XP in Vallaki you effectively level yourself out of the fair level range for the region.

If you’re playing a dedicated Barovian there doesn’t really seem to be a reason to hit 20, it seems more like an Epic 6 solution to that.

While you have a point, it fails in practice, and I hope I can outline why.
The Barovian Red Vardo for example can always hire someone who left Barovia for a while to level and they will gain a powerful ally that from that moment on will dominate stories in Barovia with their threat level. The same applies to the Wayfarer Kinship. The result is that dedicated barovian characters or simply people who better fit in a more rural setting than Port-a-Lucine or the story-less void of the Mistcamp will still be dealing with high level adversaries in stories that take place in their sphere, but have no means of competing with the control that these people gain on a mechanical level.

Edit: And if you play no barovian hero at all but rather someone barovian who is supposed to be maybe some sort of warrior but afraid of the night forever, then any level past 8 or so is already unreasonable.