Author Topic: Bounty System needs rework  (Read 12510 times)

Gnobodytalktome

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Bounty System needs rework
« on: August 31, 2020, 12:45:34 AM »
The bounty system as it stands now, is the most unfair system I have ever seen put in place.
A player is given the power to remove someones right to opt out of pvp, if the person even has the vaguest of connections to a known criminal, to say that they can stretch the requirements for these bounties is an understatement.

Secondly, if a bounty hunter from port a lucine comes to Vallaki and kills someone, they will be branded outlaw,
HOWEVER- While the port player can then take the body from Vallaki to port, anyone who tries to do the reverse, will find that they are stopped at the mist transition in the pass, where they will be forced to drop the body to continue.
Meaning that there can be no reprecussion for the hunters action, should they just not pass that transition.

finally third, can we have at least a preliminary scene between hunter and huntee be a requirement?
Because as it stands, it doesn't further story, it stunts it suddenly and without warning and then forces someone who very well may be completely unaware of their supposed crimes to be forced into situations they did not want any part in.
 

Elyan

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 01:14:31 AM »
I disagree that it removes the right to opt out of PvP, bounties are put in place if someone opts for PvP. For example if you refuse a summons you are in fact opting for PvP. Composulary scenes would be detrimental to many players and classes hunting a criminal. While I personally prefer to offer scenes out of courtesy the very act puts the instigator at a huge disadvantage and seems illogical from an IC perspective, why would someone's character put themselves at risk to give courtesy to some criminal?

As for it furthering stories this is a persistent world, even in the worst case scenario if a character is killed and their story ends it furthers the stories of other characters involved.

Overall I do think some changes could be made to the bounty system, as nothing is perfect. I just don't think the points I addressed are the issue with the current system.

Hathor

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2020, 02:02:17 AM »
I agree with Elyan that at this time bounties do still require opt-in to PVP, it's just possible that someone who does not look at the PVP rules well enough may think they are immune to PVP.

Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.

If a person is bountied and feels it's unfair, it is a good idea to reach out pre-emptively to either the person who performed the bounty or to a DM, rather than to wait and hope nothing comes of it. In the case of our gnome-haters, perhaps the PC reaches out to those putting up a bounty and explains their reasons for defending gnome-murderers.

Edit: I also agree that bounties in general are good and usually pro-story. Bounties are not limited to guards, evil PCs and the underworld can and do put out bounties as well.

Gnobodytalktome

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2020, 02:39:26 AM »

Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.


I ask, what if the the supposed gnome killers were situated in one domain, and the gnomes in another, and do not have overlapping fields of play? Can they both exist and tell their stories without impeding one another?

Hathor

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2020, 03:03:35 AM »

Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.


I ask, what if the the supposed gnome killers were situated in one domain, and the gnomes in another, and do not have overlapping fields of play? Can they both exist and tell their stories without impeding one another?

I mean, tell that to the Red Vardo.

The reality is the fields of play do overlap. You can't tell people their characters aren't allowed to care about what happens in other domains. That's down to what makes sense for any given PC. That's the nature of a roleplaying world.

While generally actions and social circles are separated throughout domains, this is far from a rule imposed on anyone. Groups that don't stick exclusively to one "field of play" or that put out counter-bounties are also less likely to be ignored outside of their primary domain.

Khornite

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2020, 03:04:43 AM »

Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.


I ask, what if the the supposed gnome killers were situated in one domain, and the gnomes in another, and do not have overlapping fields of play? Can they both exist and tell their stories without impeding one another?

Even in our world, if a criminal crosses state lines, they are not automatically immune to law enforcement coming after them. With the exception of Sithicus and Krofburg, I think most areas in the game world wouldn't care that a bounty hunter is coming in to catch a bounty from another country. The local authorities will likely think "hey, we don't want their trouble, collect the bounty. Saves us the headache." Then take it one step further with outlanders, most governments won't even think twice about a dead outlander, even more so for non-humans. In the past, I've even seen the Garda and the Gendarme making each other aware of what bounties had been posted so that they didn't accidentally aid someone who was wanted in another country.

With the association angle, authorities are likely to think that if you're friends with someone, you're likely going to get in the way if someone comes and tries to put a knife in them. If a character is aware of a conflict between two factions and willingly joins one of those factions, that in itself is opting in to the factions conflicts. When you join a faction, there's rewards and there's risks. You can't have all the good and none of the bad. If a character doesn't want conflict, maybe they shouldn't join up with a faction that is actively being antagonistic.
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Hathor

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2020, 05:10:12 AM »
With the association angle, authorities are likely to think that if you're friends with someone, you're likely going to get in the way if someone comes and tries to put a knife in them. If a character is aware of a conflict between two factions and willingly joins one of those factions, that in itself is opting in to the factions conflicts. When you join a faction, there's rewards and there's risks. You can't have all the good and none of the bad. If a character doesn't want conflict, maybe they shouldn't join up with a faction that is actively being antagonistic.

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2020, 05:28:18 AM »
I think I'd only like to see one major change and that is bounties only issued for clear or repeated crimes and as a final resolution.

Outside of that I think the guard factions should have their own "wanted" system for people that have committed crimes and be given an opportunity to enforce their "justice" within their domains of authority.


Hathor

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2020, 05:34:16 AM »
I think I'd only like to see one major change and that is bounties only issued for clear or repeated crimes and as a final resolution.

Outside of that I think the guard factions should have their own "wanted" system for people that have committed crimes and be given an opportunity to enforce their "justice" within their domains of authority.

How would membership or support of criminal factions factor in to repeated crimes? As that's more of an "ongoing" choice than a single action.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2020, 05:49:59 AM »
I think people tend to see bounties as ultimately resulting in the closure of their character, so they tend to see this as enforcement of a final solution. The reality of the matter is, bounties, especially first-time bounties for relatively minor offenses are almost never resultant in closure. In Dementlieu, it often results in the body being flung somewhere outside the city or in the sewers, and in Barovia it results in the Charnel House.

It becomes an issue when it becomes a repeat offense, or if the person has committed a very specific, very important crime that would merit by the DM Team's decision to see them placed in a more permanent solution, like the Gendarmerie's oubliette or the Garda's vault. Even those, with the right connections, aren't final solutions.

However, the people who put themselves at risk to pursue them almost always face recourse of some form. It's for that reason bounties are rarely pursued, and result more frequently in excessive anxiety and paranoia than they do anyone getting engaged in PvP. When I was playing a Gendarme, I think only one or two bounties were ever turned in to us across the two or three years I did it. Frequently, people out-of-character didn't want to pursue something that would result in them being attacked in retaliation whenever the bountied individual was inevitably set loose again. It becomes a catch twenty-two. The benefits to the process of exposing yourself, identifying yourself, making yourself vulnerable against a character who is already offered clemency to surrender themselves if they were going to come peacefully in the first place are non-existent. It only makes it far, far more likely that a character who is already going to face post-Resurrection retaliation from their bounty is going to end up getting killed before it's ever collected, thus never progressing the criminal case. Their only method of protecting themselves is this unfortunate process of ganking to ensure success.

These days with the disguise system, there's a chance at more anonymity with the process, but it's the anonymity that is all that protects the bounty hunters. It's a system I think could use some improvements, but mostly in the way it's executed, not the premise. I think there needs to be some kind of shackle tool that players can use on eachother that will tether another PC to them and force them to follow you, if you take them alive. The reason being that it taking anyone alive and across any measurable distance is impractical, dangerous, and if the bounty pays the same either way, not worth the effort. It's far easier to kill someone and transport their body that way. That's just how the game is.

That being said, I don't have much to add to this but to say I agree with the following posts:


Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.


I ask, what if the the supposed gnome killers were situated in one domain, and the gnomes in another, and do not have overlapping fields of play? Can they both exist and tell their stories without impeding one another?

Even in our world, if a criminal crosses state lines, they are not automatically immune to law enforcement coming after them. With the exception of Sithicus and Krofburg, I think most areas in the game world wouldn't care that a bounty hunter is coming in to catch a bounty from another country. The local authorities will likely think "hey, we don't want their trouble, collect the bounty. Saves us the headache." Then take it one step further with outlanders, most governments won't even think twice about a dead outlander, even more so for non-humans. In the past, I've even seen the Garda and the Gendarme making each other aware of what bounties had been posted so that they didn't accidentally aid someone who was wanted in another country.

With the association angle, authorities are likely to think that if you're friends with someone, you're likely going to get in the way if someone comes and tries to put a knife in them. If a character is aware of a conflict between two factions and willingly joins one of those factions, that in itself is opting in to the factions conflicts. When you join a faction, there's rewards and there's risks. You can't have all the good and none of the bad. If a character doesn't want conflict, maybe they shouldn't join up with a faction that is actively being antagonistic.


I disagree that it removes the right to opt out of PvP, bounties are put in place if someone opts for PvP. For example if you refuse a summons you are in fact opting for PvP. Composulary scenes would be detrimental to many players and classes hunting a criminal. While I personally prefer to offer scenes out of courtesy the very act puts the instigator at a huge disadvantage and seems illogical from an IC perspective, why would someone's character put themselves at risk to give courtesy to some criminal?

As for it furthering stories this is a persistent world, even in the worst case scenario if a character is killed and their story ends it furthers the stories of other characters involved.

Overall I do think some changes could be made to the bounty system, as nothing is perfect. I just don't think the points I addressed are the issue with the current system.

I agree with Elyan that at this time bounties do still require opt-in to PVP, it's just possible that someone who does not look at the PVP rules well enough may think they are immune to PVP.

Let's say I openly support or even join an organization whose mission is to rule the world and subjugate all gnomes, or ritually sacrifice the ones it does not enslave. This is an inherently antagonistic choice to make, and anyone who is sympathetic to gnomes would probably want to stop me. They might openly warn me to renounce the group, and if I do not do so, put a bounty on me.

If a person is bountied and feels it's unfair, it is a good idea to reach out pre-emptively to either the person who performed the bounty or to a DM, rather than to wait and hope nothing comes of it. In the case of our gnome-haters, perhaps the PC reaches out to those putting up a bounty and explains their reasons for defending gnome-murderers.

Edit: I also agree that bounties in general are good and usually pro-story. Bounties are not limited to guards, evil PCs and the underworld can and do put out bounties as well.

Thundron

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2020, 06:00:32 AM »
I disagree that it removes the right to opt out of PvP, bounties are put in place if someone opts for PvP. For example if you refuse a summons you are in fact opting for PvP. Composulary scenes would be detrimental to many players and classes hunting a criminal. While I personally prefer to offer scenes out of courtesy the very act puts the instigator at a huge disadvantage and seems illogical from an IC perspective, why would someone's character put themselves at risk to give courtesy to some criminal?

As for it furthering stories this is a persistent world, even in the worst case scenario if a character is killed and their story ends it furthers the stories of other characters involved.

Overall I do think some changes could be made to the bounty system, as nothing is perfect. I just don't think the points I addressed are the issue with the current system.

Does that mean you can actually just set someone hostile and kill him/her after 10sec IC just because name you are after is floating above his/her head?
I mean how are these bounties even made? man in black with hood kills someone and there is bounty for him and next day he wears brow clothes with bearmask and still gets hunted?

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2020, 06:11:03 AM »
I disagree that it removes the right to opt out of PvP, bounties are put in place if someone opts for PvP. For example if you refuse a summons you are in fact opting for PvP. Composulary scenes would be detrimental to many players and classes hunting a criminal. While I personally prefer to offer scenes out of courtesy the very act puts the instigator at a huge disadvantage and seems illogical from an IC perspective, why would someone's character put themselves at risk to give courtesy to some criminal?

As for it furthering stories this is a persistent world, even in the worst case scenario if a character is killed and their story ends it furthers the stories of other characters involved.

Overall I do think some changes could be made to the bounty system, as nothing is perfect. I just don't think the points I addressed are the issue with the current system.

Does that mean you can actually just set someone hostile and kill him/her after 10sec IC just because name you are after is floating above his/her head?
I mean how are these bounties even made? man in black with hood kills someone and there is bounty for him and next day he wears brow clothes with bearmask and still gets hunted?

No, chasing anyone by their nameplate alone is considered metagaming unless your character has a means to actively identify who they are. Often, a bounty will be provided with a loose description, but people will frequently, very easily find out who the people that are wanted, are. If a man named, 'John Smith,' is described as being a human of pale skin, black hair and blue eyes with a scar on his cheek, and you observe a man of a similar description identify himself, it's a fair chance you have the right target.

A lot of people who do this sort of thing are stealth-based characters, but it's worth noting that people trade in information all the time, and will actively gossip and sell characters out for the right price, and where they can be found, how they can be identified. Sometimes a relatively vague description can mean a fulfilling experience for a bounty hunter character to chase their quarry. It does not mean you can just hostile and kill someone your character has never met before because you've hit the tab key and read their nameplate but have no in-character means to know that man's identity is indeed, 'John Smith.' There's a number of factors involved, including common sense.

It is also worth noting that in almost every one of these cases, the DM Team will investigate the manner in which the collecting of the bounty was carried out, including any information surrounding identifying, locating, the combat, they'll ask for logs. Most people who will actively engage in this sort of roleplay will keep their logs after fact or screenshots, or a game recording of the incident to submit to clear any notion of malfeasance so that the DM Team can arbitrate the matter in a manner expeditious and fair to all parties.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2020, 09:15:13 AM »
I think there needs to be some kind of shackle tool that players can use on eachother that will tether another PC to them and force them to follow you, if you take them alive. The reason being that it taking anyone alive and across any measurable distance is impractical, dangerous, and if the bounty pays the same either way, not worth the effort. It's far easier to kill someone and transport their body that way. That's just how the game is.

This. I think having to kill someone and bring them back to life is an unnecessary bit of suspension of disbelief that threatens continuity. It would be really nice if there was a way to move people while they're unconscious so kidnappings weren't always murders except in the rare case someone surrenders (if they are even given a chance, because the system encourages the path of least resistance). Features like putting a bag over someone's head, shackling their arms/legs, and/or knocking them unconscious for transport would go a long way toward supporting nonlethal conflict that, right now, requires a particular amount of good faith between two players who are in an anonymous, impersonal sort of conflict (unless they both invest in making it personal) that I'd be cautious calling anything but exceptional.
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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2020, 09:26:47 AM »
How would membership or support of criminal factions factor in to repeated crimes? As that's more of an "ongoing" choice than a single action.

The separation is that there are crimes worth of pursuing a bounty on and others that are not. Association with a criminal faction or even association with a target alone isn't a bounty worthy offence. It still may be criminal if that faction is operating within the zone of jurisdiction then the garda/gendarmes are absolutely within their right to enforce their laws.

Gendarmes and Garda shouldn't be hubs for universal law enforcement across the whole server and the bounties a means to execute it.

Gnobodytalktome

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2020, 09:44:30 AM »
How would membership or support of criminal factions factor in to repeated crimes? As that's more of an "ongoing" choice than a single action.

The separation is that there are crimes worth of pursuing a bounty on and others that are not. Association with a criminal faction or even association with a target alone isn't a bounty worthy offence. It still may be criminal if that faction is operating within the zone of jurisdiction then the garda/gendarmes are absolutely within their right to enforce their laws.

Gendarmes and Garda shouldn't be hubs for universal law enforcement across the whole server and the bounties a means to execute it.

Actually it is,
Bounties can and have been placed for association with known criminals.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2020, 09:45:21 AM »
Every system that allows player agency is going to be criticized as unfair because not everyone plays fairly.

The only real remedy for systemic abuse is players' predominantly coming to recognize the game is much more fun when we look for win-win situations and compete in terms of who can help tell cooperative, shared narratives the best, rather than looking for win-lose situations in which we try to dominate and leave our fellow players feeling railroaded or props (victims) of our own RP.

Eventually, those who play in the latter style will--much like a dark lord--have their own private sandbox that no one else wants to play in or visit.

The Team through its decisions and rulings can promote the healthier view, but it starts with our policing our own behavior and asking--while always trying to act ICly and being true to what our character would do in a given situation--"Are we playing our PC in a way that improves the setting and experience for our fellow players?"

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Glass Cannon

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2020, 10:06:00 AM »
More systems to support "live" bounty captures would be great, though at the end of the day the hard murder-gank is still going to be the easiest and safest way to handle bounties, as it was IRL.

But putting in place tools to support live captures along with a culture shift in the Gendarmerie/Garda factions to offer higher rewards when a bounty is brought in alive may drive and improve the possibility for RP, rather than putting the players of bounties in a situation where one moment they're in the Mist Camp, the next they're dead, and forced to wait until they're raised in a cell before they can do anything.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 10:20:06 AM by Glass Cannon »
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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2020, 10:31:10 AM »
The biggest takeaway for the OP in this thread should likely be the understanding that if you receive a bounty from an established Guard Faction then you've done enough to satisfy the rules for opting into PvP.  DMs do pay attention to these things, especially in regards to these established Guard Factions.

I am a bit confused about this part though.

Secondly, if a bounty hunter from port a lucine comes to Vallaki and kills someone, they will be branded outlaw,
HOWEVER- While the port player can then take the body from Vallaki to port, anyone who tries to do the reverse, will find that they are stopped at the mist transition in the pass, where they will be forced to drop the body to continue.
Meaning that there can be no reprecussion for the hunters action, should they just not pass that transition.

This reads like you're saying you can't go through the Mistway that requires a Vistani Elixir while carrying a corpse?  If so this must be a recent change.



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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2020, 10:32:21 AM »
Live capture options, aside from just good fatih RP, would be amazing.

One thing that is being overlooked, however, is that you can turn yourself in. It often leads to a lesser punishment when you do, and not everything means execution. Often, it is a fine, some public humiliation, a whipping, or any number of other survivable punishments. (Speaking as the player of a former garda officer, anyway.)


Iridni Ren

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2020, 11:48:22 AM »
This reads like you're saying you can't go through the Mistway that requires a Vistani Elixir while carrying a corpse?  If so this must be a recent change.

Going from the VoB side to the Vallaki side, I have run into this before. Thankfully it was during a DM event, and the DM ported the corpse across.

There may be a trick to it, but as I recall it treated the corpse as not having an elixir and thus spitting it back.

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2020, 11:54:36 AM »
Live capture options, aside from just good fatih RP, would be amazing.

One thing that is being overlooked, however, is that you can turn yourself in. It often leads to a lesser punishment when you do, and not everything means execution. Often, it is a fine, some public humiliation, a whipping, or any number of other survivable punishments. (Speaking as the player of a former garda officer, anyway.)

My evil PC turned herself into the Gendarmes and was given a month of servitude for a noble house in Port, which was actually kind of both spooky and fun :) I assumed the house was going to use it as an opportunity to do away with her entirely. Her "crime" was very minor FWIW (at least as far as anyone knew lol).

So yes...this is an example of being creative and adding to story rather than ending it forcibly and prematurely. Often the justification of corpse hiding is to take a PC out of play for a time because of necessity. With some imagination, the PC can be allowed to continue playing rather than being forced to the sidelines.

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2020, 12:49:02 PM »
This reads like you're saying you can't go through the Mistway that requires a Vistani Elixir while carrying a corpse?  If so this must be a recent change.

Going from the VoB side to the Vallaki side, I have run into this before. Thankfully it was during a DM event, and the DM ported the corpse across.

There may be a trick to it, but as I recall it treated the corpse as not having an elixir and thus spitting it back.
Ah so it's more of a bug or sporadic thing, then.  I was curious because it's been a few months but I've definitely gone through with a corpse at least once in that time.  Interesting to know, wonder if it's intended.



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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2020, 01:43:14 PM »
It is also worth noting the pvp rules are being changed, at some point. This has been stated. It's a matter of developers hammering out details they agree with, I believe.
I'd imagine the bounty system would be looked at with this at the same time.

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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2020, 04:14:57 PM »
One thing that is being overlooked, however, is that you can turn yourself in. It often leads to a lesser punishment when you do, and not everything means execution. Often, it is a fine, some public humiliation, a whipping, or any number of other survivable punishments. (Speaking as the player of a former garda officer, anyway.)

The thing with this is - that isn't communicated ICly.

When a bounty comes out for a character asking for their death, there isn't any IC language that implies negotiation or reparation for accused crimes.

I think there is a very big difference between "we want this person in custody" VS "we want this person dead". And having that difference be apparent would lead to a lot more nuanced RP for conflict with the law.

Like, if there is a "we want this person in custody" announcement, then there is peer pressure that can happen. The suspected criminal's law abiding friends can try and persuade them, or steer them towards a path of reconciliation. There's even motivation for them to knock the suspected criminal out and turn them over, since they would trust the law not to enact a lethal consequence.

As it currently stands, there seem to be two options: a "summons" or a "death". I would love to see a middling option, like an "arrest", where there's an IC understanding that this person will be punished, but they are unlikely to face the death penalty.

Of course, IC actions can skew things either way, like if while in custody the prisoner bites one of their captors ears off (( Danikay xD )). But I think adding an "arrest" convention would lead to much more engaging RP in the majority of cases.
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Re: Bounty System needs rework
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2020, 04:32:48 PM »
The thing with this is - that isn't communicated ICly.

When a bounty comes out for a character asking for their death, there isn't any IC language that implies negotiation or reparation for accused crimes.

Maybe I'm misreading your response, but most Barovian bounties have 'dead or alive' at the top, which implies room for arrest. I'd also like to point out that the most recent bounties out of Dementlieu explicitly mention surrender, clemency, and mercy. I'm not sure how fenixphire's point could be more clearly reiterated IC.

Ultimately, groups like the Vallaki Garda or the Gendarmes are the most clear cut examples of their respective Dark Lord's influence and control that most players will encounter on a regular basis. I'm against watering down their already limited options by reducing their agency to issue and enforce bounties.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 04:36:25 PM by FiendishDireSloth »