Author Topic: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?  (Read 2472 times)

distilled1

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Extremely unpopular opinion here, which I'm sure will never happen, but what the heck. I'll voice it anyways.

Could items with spells or abilities be severely reduced to maybe a few potion types? Like why are there SO darn many here?
They cause unnecessary inventory management up the wazoo with a cluttered mess of items that do different things.
I don't think anyone wants to try to memorize or sift through all of these different looking items with different names, trying to figure out what each one does; especially new players coming in and seeing this.
It's overwhelming and I'm sure it turns many players away. Turned me off for quite some time anyway.

Crafting or collecting these items is tedious.
Overall, it cause players to spend less time role-playing, and more time feeling obligated to do something they'd probably rather not, all so they can "play optimally" or be on par with other players who are stockpiling these items.
Why incentivize players to spend their time playing solo AT ALL, and doing something so tedious instead of role-playing/adventuring together? I get that some players LOVE crafting and its "realism" or whatever but come on.
This is a role-playing fantasy game at the end of the day, and that's what it should consist of.

These items also devalue classes who naturally have these spells/abilities, making those classes feel less unique, and less needed in a group.
Any player could stockpile hundreds of these items to heal themselves, cure themselves of such and such disease, give themselves a speed buff, etc.
Why make players' characters feel less special in what they are innately supposed to bring to a party?

Again, just my opinion here; it's wildly unpopular I'm sure, but all this mess makes me wish for a much simpler D&D experience. One where you're more interested in what other players can do for you, and less interested in what you can do for yourself playing solo and crafting.
Sorry if this came off as too negative or complaining, because I otherwise love this server so freaking much.
Truly a fantastic job on everything achieved here! :mrgreen:

Hathor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2020, 05:27:45 PM »
I agree with you, *however*, nerfs ultimately favor old characters who have stuck around through such nerfs and held on to precious items.

Kaninchen

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2020, 05:41:02 PM »
One reason is that caster classes are incredibly strong on this server, compared to mundanes. Having some ways to gives mundanes the ability to emulate casters helps bridge that gap some.

In another example, sometimes you can't find a caster with a particular buff. Some dungeons can't be safely done with out some kind of protection against fear, for example. Having access to things that give protection from fear lets a dungeon be doable, if an optimal party can't be put together.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2020, 06:01:02 PM »
The policy of grandfathering items doesn't have to continue. Complicated issue but that's all I'm going to say about it for now.

Anyway, most of the items are useless except for a select few. Yeah, there are items found in the highest level dungeons which are nice in a pinch, and yeah, there are some seriously overpowered items that can be crafted which are hidden behind the gate of grinding hundreds if not thousands of hours purely on crafting, but the real issue wouldn't be reducing the amount of magic items. A wise party is selling most of them because they are straight up not worth using, not in dungeons, not against players. A handful do not follow that schema. A few of the actually useful items could be nerfed somehow but unless they're made to be useless vendor bait too, they're still going to be in use.

I'm not certain this is a new player issue, since it takes months for the average player to even get to high enough level to loot them. If they are accessing these items before that time has elapsed, they are either buying them or they are being given them for free. In both cases, I'm pretty sure they're going to know what these items do.

Personally, I play support oriented caster characters and I don't feel less special when someone uses consumables to make my assignments easier. And no, I'm not going to dedicate my entire 3rd circle to Remove Disease when in any given dungeon where diseases are prevalent, there are three or four times more diseases to cure than I have spell slots. If I go into a dungeon with 40 of these items, I'm still taking a material cost and reducing my own profits. Spells cost nothing to cast besides losing other buffs, which I'm giving out to other people anyway. The fighters who need to be immune to stuff so they can blender. The archers who die in 1 hit when an enemy gets through a door and makes a beeline for them. The melee casters who, like me, are banking slots on healing, replacement buffs, counter/control spells, and steroid spells for our mates that regularly thank us for what we bring to the table as we do for them. I do not think I have ever heard someone say, "We don't need a wizard/cleric/druid for this dungeon." I don't think I ever will.

It's not about optimal play or new players. Honestly, this server can get a lot more inconvenient and unforgiving. Dungeons could be a 4-rest affair for the "optimal party." But what happens to those who aren't playing optimally? The parties with characters who aren't stockpiling panic buttons, whose builds are not optimal? 6 rests? 7? Will they have to dedicate 3-4 hours for a simple adventure that gets them 8% of their XP to the next level, and then they end up having to bring half of their party back to the Mist Camp as corpses and spend triple their earnings on resurrecting them because they had one little error in judgement?

Will that make them spend more time roleplaying?

edit: On the topic of crafting, and soloing in general, there are people who will do it, sure. But for me, crafting has been a group adventure all the way from the beginning to the master level. It has this one merit. It can be made less grindy and less rewarding, but any changes to crafting must not compromise that the best stuff is found in areas that really should be visited with a group -- a few fully enchanted characters at level 18+ that go out of their way to spend hours doing this stuff alone are an outlier, and trust me, if you were to ask them directly, they wouldn't tell you it's an obligation, they would tell you it's what they do for fun and for RP, usually when they're killing time waiting for a group of people to RP to show up. I don't think their choice to enjoy themselves how they wish to is hampering anyone's ability to RP, or making the server more dungeon-focused than RP-focused.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 06:11:37 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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distilled1

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2020, 06:13:54 PM »
I agree with you, *however*, nerfs ultimately favor old characters who have stuck around through such nerfs and held on to precious items.
A fair point to make. If these items were removed, yeah they'd obviously have to be removed out of the inventories of players who HAVE stockpiled tediously.
Yeah those players would be unhappy about such a change for a time, complaining, etc, but I personally believe it would serve the greater good of the server, and bring more about the happiness of players who are new and who don't want to deal with such a tedious type of gameplay.

One reason is that caster classes are incredibly strong on this server, compared to mundanes. Having some ways to gives mundanes the ability to emulate casters helps bridge that gap some.

In another example, sometimes you can't find a caster with a particular buff. Some dungeons can't be safely done with out some kind of protection against fear, for example. Having access to things that give protection from fear lets a dungeon be doable, if an optimal party can't be put together.
Another good point, but casters have access to these spell/ability items just like the mundane classes. Also casters' spells which buff them up to the strength of the mundane fighters have their limitations, unlike the strength of mundane fighters who have that strength constantly. Casters can have their buffs ended through dispels, and have their casts interrupted by mundane fighters. They also have a limited amount of casts per rest. The mundane fighters should learn to take advantage of the caster's weaknesses, no?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2020, 06:28:06 PM »
What would really be tedious is making all of the server's content significantly more difficult and making it so casters can't even buff themselves let alone their allies, because they have to constantly heal and cure everyone. The overall difficulty of the server compounds and dictates the difficulty of my characters' role as a party support, because it's my job in any given dungeon to keep the party alive. In a server where save or die spells, unavoidable damage, and healthsponge enemies are the norm, I am very lucky to be able to use my spell slots for buffing myself and others, rather than curing diseases and healing every little cut or scratch.

Casters are strong. This is true. They are a popular choice for soloers, this is also true, and people with mundane classes do solo with magic items periodically. But if you make mundanes reliant on them for every little thing, they're not going to be able to fight side by side with them anymore. They're going to have to stand in the back, minimally buffed and invisible, and throw a few cures at their allies from time to time. They remain overpowered in the eyes of the many, they remain essential for a smooth adventure, but now they only need to perform 3 or 4 actions per minute, when they were previously the most active class in the game with the most assignments during combat out of any character archetype. No thanks, signed a support main.
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Khornite

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2020, 06:36:10 PM »
The ONE thing that helps mundane classes be able to maintain pace with casters is their "bag of tricks". Getting rid of items with spell like abilities on them will widen the power gap between casters and mundanes to comedic levels. A lot of times when a caster isn't capable of warding a full party in a dungeon, mundanes can fill the gaps with items or potions. If you don't want to be running around getting items or crafting them, there's an easy solution in the form of the dozens of in-game merchant characters and NPCs. And if you are having issues managing your inventory over it? Inventory management has always been a staple of survival horror games since the OG Resident Evil. If anything, we need MORE items, not less. Mundanes are only as good as the people supporting them and their gear, they're BATMAN in that sense. I don't think taking Batman's utility belt away is a great idea for balance.
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distilled1

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 06:50:21 PM »
I'm not certain this is a new player issue, since it takes months for the average player to even get to high enough level to loot them.
Well the new players can still come in and see that this system of items is in place and be turned off by the idea of feeling obligated to eventually participate in such tedious activities instead of simply enjoying role-playing and adventuring. Most people have no time for tedious things because that's what they do at work all day, or whatever.

I'm not going to dedicate my entire 3rd circle to Remove Disease when in any given dungeon where diseases are prevalent, there are three or four times more diseases to cure than I have spell slots.

It's not about optimal play or new players. Honestly, this server can get a lot more inconvenient and unforgiving.
Well why shouldn't those spells be considered a valuable part of a Cleric's spell list like any others. They certainly would be if there wasn't so many items that cured these things, and isn't that better? To have spells be more valuable to other players to promote more party play?
If the dungeons are currently set up in a way that requires so much disease curing, I guess all I can say to that is maybe the dungeons should be tweaked a bit or players should get better disease protection somehow, or parties should bring even MORE clerics with them.
The whole reason I feel this change should happen is to make classes innately feel more valuable to other players than simply bringing more items.

edit: On the topic of crafting, and soloing in general, there are people who will do it, sure. But for me, crafting has been a group adventure all the way from the beginning to the master level. It has this one merit. It can be made less grindy and less rewarding, but any changes to crafting must not compromise that the best stuff is found in areas that really should be visited with a group -- a few fully enchanted characters at level 18+ that go out of their way to spend hours doing this stuff alone are an outlier, and trust me, if you were to ask them directly, they wouldn't tell you it's an obligation, they would tell you it's what they do for fun and for RP, usually when they're killing time waiting for a group of people to RP to show up. I don't think their choice to enjoy themselves how they wish to is hampering anyone's ability to RP, or making the server more dungeon-focused than RP-focused.
Crafting can be done role-playing in groups I suppose, but from what I've seen in other crafting-heavy games, most of the time it isn't done in groups. Is there any real benefit to crafting with a group in this game as opposed to crafting solo? Not from what I can see anyway.

What would really be tedious is making all of the server's content significantly more difficult and making it so casters can't even buff themselves let alone their allies, because they have to constantly heal and cure everyone. The overall difficulty of the server compounds and dictates the difficulty of my characters' role as a party support, because it's my job in any given dungeon to keep the party alive. In a server where save or die spells, unavoidable damage, and healthsponge enemies are the norm, I am very lucky to be able to use my spell slots for buffing myself and others, rather than curing diseases and healing every little cut or scratch.
Again, maybe the dungeons should be tweaked a bit in ADDITION to reducing many of these items with spells/abilities.

Casters are strong. This is true. They are a popular choice for soloers, this is also true, and people with mundane classes do solo with magic items periodically. But if you make mundanes reliant on them for every little thing, they're not going to be able to fight side by side with them anymore. They're going to have to stand in the back, minimally buffed and invisible, and throw a few cures at their allies from time to time.
I don't understand what the problem is here. Aren't mundane classes supposed to be more simple? And why would they stand in the back?

The ONE thing that helps mundane classes be able to maintain pace with casters is their "bag of tricks". Getting rid of items with spell like abilities on them will widen the power gap between casters and mundanes to comedic levels. A lot of times when a caster isn't capable of warding a full party in a dungeon, mundanes can fill the gaps with items or potions. If you don't want to be running around getting items or crafting them, there's an easy solution in the form of the dozens of in-game merchant characters and NPCs. And if you are having issues managing your inventory over it? Inventory management has always been a staple of survival horror games since the OG Resident Evil. If anything, we need MORE items, not less. Mundanes are only as good as the people supporting them and their gear, they're BATMAN in that sense. I don't think taking Batman's utility belt away is a great idea for balance.
Well maybe this server should tackle the root of the problem as to why mundanes are at such a disadvantage to casters instead of just dealing with it through bags of tricks. Like maybe the mechanics of some mundane class's abilities should be tweaked or something to make them more of a threat to casters through interrupting spell casting or whatever.
Wouldn't that be better than all this mess of items shoved in everyone's inventory, and not just the mundanes, but everyone's.
I could kinda see if it was like special tonics that only mundane users could use, but ALL classes can use these items, and they're so prevalent. That's what I have a problem with.

distilled1

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2020, 07:00:30 PM »
Let me just say this now.
I'm not the smartest person in regards to game design and tweaking things.

What I'm trying to say is I wish a group's mentality, when deciding to go on an adventure or into a dungeon, was more like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's find MORE clerics and MORE wizards to accompany us so our party can cast more spells together."
instead of like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's go craft/grind more potions/items together..."

Like I'm sorry but the latter, to me anyway, is QUITE lame.

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2020, 07:13:08 PM »
So let me try to understand, as the original post was a bit unclear -

this is not about items with spells and abilities (like say boots that have casts of a spell on them, or rings that have casts of a spell on them) but crafted items such as varnishes and potions, correct?

I think the crafting system does a lot for the server that the items you find/loot could not. Crafting does not have to be a solo endeavor, and for players like myself who do not dungeon, this is the only way we get magical items - by crafting armor and enchanting them, or something like that, because we won't get loot chests or find magical swords. It also gives enchanting a reason to exist, and that is end game level gear you will not find in the loot table.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2020, 07:20:05 PM »
I'm not certain this is a new player issue, since it takes months for the average player to even get to high enough level to loot them.
Well the new players can still come in and see that this system of items is in place and be turned off by the idea of feeling obligated to eventually participate in such tedious activities instead of simply enjoying role-playing and adventuring. Most people have no time for tedious things because that's what they do at work all day, or whatever.

A complex RPG is tedious by its very nature. The amount of detail to consider, for example, is tedious. There are easier, simpler games out there with less to remember -- but this is far from the most complex RPG there is.

I would suggest you do not participate in these activities unless you are roleplaying. Unless you find it gratifying otherwise, you'd be wasting your time.

I'm not going to dedicate my entire 3rd circle to Remove Disease when in any given dungeon where diseases are prevalent, there are three or four times more diseases to cure than I have spell slots.

It's not about optimal play or new players. Honestly, this server can get a lot more inconvenient and unforgiving.
Well why shouldn't those spells be considered a valuable part of a Cleric's spell list like any others. They certainly would be if there wasn't so many items that cured these things, and isn't that better? To have spells be more valuable to other players to promote more party play?
If the dungeons are currently set up in a way that requires so much disease curing, I guess all I can say to that is maybe the dungeons should be tweaked a bit or players should get better disease protection somehow, or parties should bring even MORE clerics with them.
The whole reason I feel this change should happen is to make classes innately feel more valuable to other players than simply bringing more items.

The reason they're not considered valuable is because better spells exist. In DnD, it is traditional for immunities (proactive) to be better than restoration (reactive). There are many core party support spells & spells that allow Clerics to buff themselves to fighter level, for example, on the same level as disease curing and poison immunity. If we lose Freedom of Movement and have to spam Remove Paralysis every round because people keep getting paralysed, it's more tedious, because we're doing less damage, and the party we weren't able to buff is doing less damage, and it keeps going down that way until we're all mindlessly charging into dungeons with 20 people, not using any tactics because we're filling the dungeon up wall-to-wall with a mass of unthinking meat wielding swords, until we die or succeed, where we used to be able to do them with 5 people if we were smart about it.

Making all the dungeons astronomically easier, giving enemies less and less variety in their abilities, making combat more cost-effective, or asking players to carry around even more magic items so they can buff their saves just right for every possible circumstance just makes things even more tedious.

edit: On the topic of crafting, and soloing in general, there are people who will do it, sure. But for me, crafting has been a group adventure all the way from the beginning to the master level. It has this one merit. It can be made less grindy and less rewarding, but any changes to crafting must not compromise that the best stuff is found in areas that really should be visited with a group -- a few fully enchanted characters at level 18+ that go out of their way to spend hours doing this stuff alone are an outlier, and trust me, if you were to ask them directly, they wouldn't tell you it's an obligation, they would tell you it's what they do for fun and for RP, usually when they're killing time waiting for a group of people to RP to show up. I don't think their choice to enjoy themselves how they wish to is hampering anyone's ability to RP, or making the server more dungeon-focused than RP-focused.
Crafting can be done role-playing in groups I suppose, but from what I've seen in other crafting-heavy games, most of the time it isn't done in groups. Is there any real benefit to crafting with a group in this game as opposed to crafting solo? Not from what I can see anyway.

Become a crafter, then, and see. At first, I wrote it off, too. But I quickly realised you cannot progress without help. At level 5, I couldn't kill the enemies which gave me the reagents I needed to start progressing my craft beyond the basic level stuff. By level 10, I needed the products created by other crafters to make anything of real value. I needed a reliable way to earn gold, because the crafting itself becomes expensive over time. I needed other people, often times, to help me carry stuff, because the best stuff is the heaviest stuff. Even if we remove all the grind but keep the material cost the same, the innate design is there: you have to have other crafters, and you have to have help, because the best stuff is found in the most dangerous areas on the server, which means party play. Soloing crafters really isn't a widespread phenomenon. There's a few who do it and it takes a lot more effort, they can attest, than if they were to have help.

What would really be tedious is making all of the server's content significantly more difficult and making it so casters can't even buff themselves let alone their allies, because they have to constantly heal and cure everyone. The overall difficulty of the server compounds and dictates the difficulty of my characters' role as a party support, because it's my job in any given dungeon to keep the party alive. In a server where save or die spells, unavoidable damage, and healthsponge enemies are the norm, I am very lucky to be able to use my spell slots for buffing myself and others, rather than curing diseases and healing every little cut or scratch.
Again, maybe the dungeons should be tweaked a bit in ADDITION to reducing many of these items with spells/abilities.

I really do not think the dungeons are going to be made easier. It wouldn't be "a bit" -- it would be an entire overhaul of the way things work in these dungeons. While a few do need balance changes, I think they just need to be made more difficult to solo, and more fun to tackle as a group by using more varied tactics, by adding a greater variety of enemies. Lowering the variety, modifying save DCs to be easier to succeed at, or even removing the auras altogether, just invites soloers, even without magic items; the magic items exist to counter the aura heavy design.

Casters are strong. This is true. They are a popular choice for soloers, this is also true, and people with mundane classes do solo with magic items periodically. But if you make mundanes reliant on them for every little thing, they're not going to be able to fight side by side with them anymore. They're going to have to stand in the back, minimally buffed and invisible, and throw a few cures at their allies from time to time.
I don't understand what the problem is here. Aren't mundane classes supposed to be more simple? And why would they stand in the back?

The casters would have to stand in the back because they can't fight side by side with them anymore.

Mundane classes are simpler, with the caveat that they have a lower power ceiling, especially on a server that caps out at level 20. You cannot compare the power of two classes in 1v1 PvP adequately when the game is all about who comes prepared. It was balanced for party play and intercooperation. It's just how DnD works. Other characters having a few tricks up their sleeves does not by any means make Clerics, Druids, or Wizards less unique. It gives the party more options.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2020, 07:31:39 PM »
Let me just say this now.
I'm not the smartest person in regards to game design and tweaking things.

What I'm trying to say is I wish a group's mentality, when deciding to go on an adventure or into a dungeon, was more like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's find MORE clerics and MORE wizards to accompany us so our party can cast more spells together."
instead of like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's go craft/grind more potions/items together..."

Like I'm sorry but the latter, to me anyway, is QUITE lame.

The former is just a World of Warcraft raid where every individual's part is diminished, and little RP can take place, because you're surrounded by people who can't even help you, as they are bodyblocked by several other people who probably aren't even paying attention. More players means less individual responsibility, not less tedium.

You can get more people with you if you want larger parties. The XP won't be as good but it will be faster and you won't need as many consumables. It's a great idea. I've done it before and had fun. But I don't think it needs special attention when it's technically easier than going in with less people. Especially if you're getting more wizards to spam more hastes and replacement immunities when you get dispelled, more clerics to spam more heals and auras, and more druids to become an unstoppable army of bears with acid-dripping claws.
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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2020, 07:35:07 PM »
What I'm trying to say is I wish a group's mentality, when deciding to go on an adventure or into a dungeon, was more like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's find MORE clerics and MORE wizards to accompany us so our party can cast more spells together."
instead of like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's go craft/grind more potions/items together..."

I can't speak to the mentality of others, but even under the current system my mentality--and the mentality of those I generally play with--is more the former than the latter.

Although I have access to potions, for example, I don't want to use them up but would rather save them for times when other PCs aren't around to help.

I agree that we have too many potions (and herbs!!!), but I don't see the basic problem you're describing as widespread.

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distilled1

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2020, 07:53:16 PM »
Very good points, everyone, and I thank you all. It's relieving to hear what you're saying.
I would suggest you do not participate in these activities unless you are roleplaying. Unless you find it gratifying otherwise, you'd be wasting your time.
I think that's just what I'll have to do yeah.
To be honest, a lot of why I feel the way I do about these items is because I fear being belittled, or thought of as inadequate/inefficient to other players for not spending time on crafting items or grinding for dungeon items, and instead only focusing on role-playing and having a good time, but maybe that's just my own issue I need to overcome.

Like other MMOs I've played, I simply shouldn't worry about what's "optimal", and if there are elitist players who don't think I'm good enough, then I guess I need to just be like "screw em I'll find other more laid back players".
I just hope there are enough players around for me to play with who don't take "optimal performance" so seriously. I literally don't know, cause I haven't been here long enough, but from what I'm hearing from you guys, yeah it's pretty relieving.

I hope elitists aren't the majority of players here that's all, because I really can't be bothered to spend 50% of my play time doing inventory management for all these one-time-use items with spells on them, instead of simply trashing them and focusing on spells from my spellbook, because that's how I want to play.

Khornite

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2020, 08:03:19 PM »
What I'm trying to say is I wish a group's mentality, when deciding to go on an adventure or into a dungeon, was more like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's find MORE clerics and MORE wizards to accompany us so our party can cast more spells together."
instead of like this:
"Hey we might get diseased/poisoned or hurt a lot going there. Let's go craft/grind more potions/items together..."

I can't speak to the mentality of others, but even under the current system my mentality--and the mentality of those I generally play with--is more the former than the latter.

Although I have access to potions, for example, I don't want to use them up but would rather save them for times when other PCs aren't around to help.

I agree that we have too many potions (and herbs!!!), but I don't see the basic problem you're describing as widespread.

I've never, in my entire time here, seen someone say "we don't need that person, we have potions".
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2020, 08:06:45 PM »
You won't be belittled for roleplaying on a roleplaying server, wherever you are doing it, in a dungeon, or a tavern, or wherever. Trust me, my character isn't set up optimally, and my consumables are panic buttons, not for everyday use, like Iridni said, and like Khornite said, yeah, some people might have found potions of death ward and a scabbard of blessing, but people still have no qualms about bringing my cleric on a dungeon run. Don't even get me started on my multiclassed druid, the character is practically dead weight besides a few creative applications, but she still ends up going and nobody trolls me over my build. It's easier to achieve "universal party invite" status if you're playing a caster, of course, since casters are always good to have, but personality matters more than mechanical power. People will remember you and invite you next time because they like you, not how strong your character is.

Optimal performance isn't that important here. The highest level dungeons can get really difficult but the main thing is, if you aren't under-leveled, you should be okay. But expect surprises. Sometimes you make a little mistake and you die. We've all been there. It's whatever.

If you are playing a caster, especially a support type, here's my suggestion. Keep the items that look really useful, sell the rest, and anything you don't need, just give it away. You might find someone who does enjoy the inventory management aspect of the game. Some people go through certain items like candy and are always looking for more of it.
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Kaninchen

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2020, 10:49:49 PM »
Not everyone is a "power gamer," going for optimal builds. I have a PC who dual wield whips, and people seem to like him, and have him along for stuff, for reasons I don't even understand. It must be his cloak.

Something to also consider, is there are players who do love crafting, for various reasons. Some folk love spending time over cauldrons, churning out consumables to sell, and use. It's a pretty big part of the player economy as well. Think of all the exchanging of herbs and coin that happen on the server. That's a lot of RP potential there. Haggling over prices, and being selective of cuts of herbs.


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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2020, 06:43:05 AM »
Extremely unpopular opinion here, which I'm sure will never happen, but what the heck. I'll voice it anyways.

Could items with spells or abilities be severely reduced to maybe a few potion types? Like why are there SO darn many here?
They cause unnecessary inventory management up the wazoo with a cluttered mess of items that do different things.
I don't think anyone wants to try to memorize or sift through all of these different looking items with different names, trying to figure out what each one does; especially new players coming in and seeing this.
It's overwhelming and I'm sure it turns many players away. Turned me off for quite some time anyway.

Crafting or collecting these items is tedious.
Overall, it cause players to spend less time role-playing, and more time feeling obligated to do something they'd probably rather not, all so they can "play optimally" or be on par with other players who are stockpiling these items.
Why incentivize players to spend their time playing solo AT ALL, and doing something so tedious instead of role-playing/adventuring together? I get that some players LOVE crafting and its "realism" or whatever but come on.
This is a role-playing fantasy game at the end of the day, and that's what it should consist of.

These items also devalue classes who naturally have these spells/abilities, making those classes feel less unique, and less needed in a group.
Any player could stockpile hundreds of these items to heal themselves, cure themselves of such and such disease, give themselves a speed buff, etc.
Why make players' characters feel less special in what they are innately supposed to bring to a party?

Again, just my opinion here; it's wildly unpopular I'm sure, but all this mess makes me wish for a much simpler D&D experience. One where you're more interested in what other players can do for you, and less interested in what you can do for yourself playing solo and crafting.
Sorry if this came off as too negative or complaining, because I otherwise love this server so freaking much.
Truly a fantastic job on everything achieved here! :mrgreen:

I'm not sure what point you trying to get across with this thread, are you saying that they should turn down the loot drops with "on use" because it's hard for you to manage your inventory, or that the crafting is too complicated and should be toned down, or are you trying to make a point about not enough role playing going on and too much grinding?

It's your inventory, manage it however you like. If your not that big on crafting, then do as little crafting as you feel comfortable with, and are you having a hard time finding people to roleplay with? If that's the case, I'm sorry, but it would be better for you to reach out if that's the case.

Maffa

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2020, 01:08:59 PM »
Hi, I'm from the action forum.
We need all the help we can find, since there nor players nor crafters to cater to those few that dare dungeoning.
If your inventory clutter, just sell everything you haven't found useful within a month, push to shove you can always buy another for one of the hundred crafters you RPers have  :!::twisted:


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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2020, 01:15:02 PM »
I think that there are some items that are more heinous than others. Abber Dreamcatchers, for instance. Clarity being essentially a short-duration Mind Blank, spammable and in infinite abundance, characters don't really have an excuse to be affected by Will things.

In PvE it's just convenient. When players start considering their options in a conflict with other players, though, it's a little disheartening that Illusion and Enchantment are defeated instantly and entirely with no specialization, investment, or nuance-- especially on a server that gives so many other avenues to achieve high saves. I think the mass availability of that effect in particular is a great reason for wiz/sorcs to use non-save-based attacks, which is a great reason for them not to invest overmuch in their primary ability score, etc etc.

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »
When players start considering their options in a conflict with other players, though, it's a little disheartening that Illusion and Enchantment are defeated instantly and entirely with no specialization, investment, or nuance-- especially on a server that gives so many other avenues to achieve high saves. I think the mass availability of that effect in particular is a great reason for wiz/sorcs to use non-save-based attacks, which is a great reason for them not to invest overmuch in their primary ability score, etc etc.

Clarity is one of the short-term duration spells, though. I've never thought it was over-powered because it's unlikely anyone walks around with it up all the time.

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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2020, 02:08:13 PM »
Clarity is one of the short-term duration spells, though. I've never thought it was over-powered because it's unlikely anyone walks around with it up all the time.

This is part of what I perceive to be the problem. An Enchanter or Illusionist who has to engage in PvP also has to catch their enemy unawares, as anybody can pop blanket immunity to every trick in their book if given the least bit of forewarning.

It shouldn't be surprising that "wiz/sorc pvp" and "wiz/sorc ganks" become interchangeable when ambushes are the meta.

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 02:21:50 PM »
Clarity is one of the short-term duration spells, though. I've never thought it was over-powered because it's unlikely anyone walks around with it up all the time.

This is part of what I perceive to be the problem. An Enchanter or Illusionist who has to engage in PvP also has to catch their enemy unawares, as anybody can pop blanket immunity to every trick in their book if given the least bit of forewarning.

It shouldn't be surprising that "wiz/sorc pvp" and "wiz/sorc ganks" become interchangeable when ambushes are the meta.

Even if the Dream Catchers were removed, Clarity potions are a thing (although not the easiest potion). I wouldn't personally care if the Dream Catchers were removed, but I also don't think that doing so would much change that wizard/sorc PvP is largely determined by first strike.

Death Ward negates a ton of spells and has hours of duration. It also exists in potion form.

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Marcus Weyland

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2020, 02:39:46 PM »
Even if the Dream Catchers were removed, Clarity potions are a thing (although not the easiest potion). I wouldn't personally care if the Dream Catchers were removed, but I also don't think that doing so would much change that wizard/sorc PvP is largely determined by first strike.
Death Ward negates a ton of spells and has hours of duration. It also exists in potion form.

Clarity potions have very little reason to exist at present, given that you can buy the same effect without any herbalism from a common NPC vendor.
Regardless, Death Ward's items are comparatively scarce, its casters are limited to three classes, it does not protect from the whole School of Necromancy, and in fact does not even protect from all instant-kill spells.

There is a spell that protects from ALL Necromancy-- Shadow Shield. It's not found in items, to my knowledge, or potions-- and doesn't have a "target: other" let alone "mass" variant.

Clarity and Lesser Mind Blank are inventions of Neverwinter Nights. The only spell in PnP that could confer blanket and universal immunity to mind effects is Mind Blank, which is single target 8th level magic. There are spells that protect from SPECIFIC mind effects, though otherwise, you have an impetus to invest heavily in your Will if you want to be immune to mind spells. PotM gives many ways to do that, but also gives Clarity as an option, in case you'd rather not take any Wisdom or mind affect feats.

Diversification of that very powerful effect into lower-level spells accessible by a broad number of classes-- and furthermore the itemization of it for the sake of providing non-UMD characters with ready access--puts us in an odd situation where mass-produced tribal charms are the reason why most wizards adhere to no theme in particular other than "missiles and clouds" when forced to fight.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 02:42:19 PM by Marcus Weyland »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Items with spells/abilities. Why so many? Could it be toned down?
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2020, 03:15:46 PM »
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Even if the Dream Catchers were removed, Clarity potions are a thing (although not the easiest potion). I wouldn't personally care if the Dream Catchers were removed, but I also don't think that doing so would much change that wizard/sorc PvP is largely determined by first strike.
Death Ward negates a ton of spells and has hours of duration. It also exists in potion form.

Clarity potions have very little reason to exist at present, given that you can buy the same effect without any herbalism from a common NPC vendor.
Regardless, Death Ward's items are comparatively scarce, its casters are limited to three classes, it does not protect from the whole School of Necromancy, and in fact does not even protect from all instant-kill spells.

There is a spell that protects from ALL Necromancy-- Shadow Shield. It's not found in items, to my knowledge, or potions-- and doesn't have a "target: other" let alone "mass" variant.

Clarity and Lesser Mind Blank are inventions of Neverwinter Nights. The only spell in PnP that could confer blanket and universal immunity to mind effects is Mind Blank, which is single target 8th level magic. There are spells that protect from SPECIFIC mind effects, though otherwise, you have an impetus to invest heavily in your Will if you want to be immune to mind spells. PotM gives many ways to do that, but also gives Clarity as an option, in case you'd rather not take any Wisdom or mind affect feats.

Diversification of that very powerful effect into lower-level spells accessible by a broad number of classes-- and furthermore the itemization of it for the sake of providing non-UMD characters with ready access--puts us in an odd situation where mass-produced tribal charms are the reason why most wizards adhere to no theme in particular other than "missiles and clouds" when forced to fight.


I'm all for reducing potions and the number of herbs in general. But I personally find Death Ward having greater "impact" than Clarity. If my PC didn't have generally excellent saves, I would keep Death Ward up at all times--which is easily doable. I keep Death Ward potions around, whereas I don't bother with Clarity.

What I've observed--and your experience as a Wizard is clearly different--the main justification for Clarity is the number of Fear auras and Fear effects on this server, not to negate schools of magic and casting styles.

Regarding the spell itself, I did some quick searching and found a very similar spell that does exist outside of NWN and in 3.5: Clarity of Mind.

It is weaker in that it provides only a +4 save, rather than immunity. But it also lasts 1 hour / level.

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