Toning down the fast timing of NPC "upset" reactions.

[FoogooFish]

Apologies if this is a repeat suggestion!
Upset NPCs have no chill!

A couple days ago, my PC witnessed an interaction with a caliban in Quartier Publique, Port-à-Lucine. The NPCs expressed their righteous indignation... to the point where the spam got to be a bit much due to the number of NPCs present. Is there a way to reduce the timer on how often they yell, or perhaps include a check to see how many of them are yelling in a specific area? Because otherwise, this is what happens in the span of maybe two minutes:

(Names changed to protect the parties involved. Actual PC RP in italics.)

[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] <c¡¡±>[HM]</c> Stop!
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
[A Caliban PC]: [Talk] the hell are you chasing me for?
[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] Halt 
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] Par Ezra, you should really not walk around civilization.
[PC1]: [Talk] [scowls in the direction of the shirtless brute]
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] Urgh, look at you. Stay away from moi!
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] [The man stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide his contempt.]
[PC2]: [Talk] She gives Norman a yellow-toothed smile.
[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] What do you think you are doing?
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
[PC1]: [Talk] [deliberately turns away, blowing smoke from her nose]
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Urgh, look at you. Stay away from moi!
[A Caliban PC]: [Talk] Hmm.. Let's stinking see... Minding my own business?
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] [The man stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide his contempt.]
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
[PC3]: [Whisper]  <c¡¡±>[HM]</c> "Oh dear..."
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Par Ezra, you should really not walk around civilization.
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] Par Ezra, you should really not walk around civilization.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Urgh, look at you. Stay away from moi!
[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] You are disturbing the peace obviously.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] Urgh, look at you. Stay away from moi!
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
[A Caliban PC]: [Talk] Nuh. I was obviously walkings here. Before you mades it an issue.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Aucune manière ! Stay away from me brute!.
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] [The man stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide his contempt.]
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
[PC3]: [Talk] <c¡¡±>[HM]</c> Ever-curious, she watches the scene as it unfolds. "A moment, mademoiselle..." she says aside towards [another PC].
[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] You need to hide your appearance when passing through here or I will send you to the sewer.
[A Caliban PC]: [Talk] uh..
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Aucune manière ! Stay away from me brute!.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] Urgh, look at you. Stay away from moi!
[A Caliban PC]: [Talk] hates to break it to you. this ain't Barovia
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] Stop bothering the citizens with your presence. You are not welcome here.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] We don't need your kind around here; begone with you.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
[PC1]: [Talk] [tisks, turning back]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] Stop bothering the citizens with your presence. You are not welcome here.
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] This is no place for people like you. Déguerpis! I will chase you out otherwise.
[PC3]: [Talk] <c¡¡±>[HM]</c> "...the absolute audacity..."
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Oh my! I heard of you. Stay away from me you disgusting man.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] Aucune manière ! Stay away from me brute!.
[PC1]: [Talk] [begins to hum several bars of various melodies in quick succession]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] Stop bothering the citizens with your presence. You are not welcome here.
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] This is no place for people like you. Déguerpis! I will chase you out otherwise.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] We don't need your kind around here; begone with you.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] Stop bothering the citizens with your presence. You are not welcome here.
[A Gendarme PC]: [Talk] Hate to break it to you but you are being fined, and then I'm going to see you out after we talk about whats appropriate.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] This is no place for people like you. Déguerpis! I will chase you out otherwise.
Dementlieuse Nobleman: [Talk] [The man stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide his contempt.]
Dementlieuse Gendarme: [Talk] Stop bothering the citizens with your presence. You are not welcome here.
Dementlieuse Noblewoman: [Talk] [The woman stares at [the Caliban PC] suspiciously and disgustedly, making no effort to hide her contempt.]

Considering that the scene lasted a good fifteen to twenty minutes, the spam effectively drowned out the RP. Can anything be done?

[FinalHeaven]

The spam is super irritating, hard agree.  Would love to see it toned down a bit.

[Destinysdesire]

This please....especially in Radus case....he will murder most newbies before they even register whats happening.

[Asous]

I kind of love the posh peoples reaction to my Tielfing to be honest but yes, maybe a timer on them.

[Glowfire]

It's far too frequent as it is currently.

[Tycat]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is. First of all, it's important to know that Radu won't out right murder you. He knocks you to 0 health and you can rise from that without rolling recovery. (don't ask me how I know this...) But you know, the spam does represent the heckling and indignation you'd receive from a mob. The setting is a horror setting and not meant to be comfortable existing in, it's supposed to push your buttons and break your character or try to. The way they react now is fine and I'd even argue it could be cranked up to 11 still.

[Destinysdesire]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is. First of all, it's important to know that Radu won't out right murder you. He knocks you to 0 health and you can rise from that without rolling recovery. (don't ask me how I know this...) But you know, the spam does represent the heckling and indignation you'd receive from a mob. The setting is a horror setting and not meant to be comfortable existing in, it's supposed to push your buttons and break your character or try to. The way they react now is fine and I'd even argue it could be cranked up to 11 still.

The problem to your argument....is your also still supposed to be able to rp....anything that mass spams....takes you from the rp. I agree something like that sure...but unless NPCs start to mass gather....them repeating the same line 50,000,000,000 times over the course of 2 minutes...is outright pointless....and quite frankly...very immersion breaking because if they are that offended/scared of you....they aren't gonna really hang around...now if they summoned nearby Garda....that makes more sense.

[Khornite]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is.

While I agree with your opinion about how it can reflect the setting, the problem is that with how the game's interface is handled, message spam becomes a pain in the neck. Scrolling through your chat, attempting to find that random tell you got, or read what the people around you are saying is just irritating. The same effect can be achieved in a way that doesn't involve message spam for everyone is listening range.

People should be put off ease because of what's in front of them (like guards slowly advancing, setting you as hostile and drawing weapons), not because of "Oh god, that's 40 messages a second and I have no idea what is going on. Better scroll through this essay to find the emotes from that person I was talking to".

[Tycat]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is. First of all, it's important to know that Radu won't out right murder you. He knocks you to 0 health and you can rise from that without rolling recovery. (don't ask me how I know this...) But you know, the spam does represent the heckling and indignation you'd receive from a mob. The setting is a horror setting and not meant to be comfortable existing in, it's supposed to push your buttons and break your character or try to. The way they react now is fine and I'd even argue it could be cranked up to 11 still.

The problem to your argument....is your also still supposed to be able to rp....anything that mass spams....takes you from the rp. I agree something like that sure...but unless NPCs start to mass gather....them repeating the same line 50,000,000,000 times over the course of 2 minutes...is outright pointless....and quite frankly...very immersion breaking because if they are that offended/scared of you....they aren't gonna really hang around...now if they summoned nearby Garda....that makes more sense.

Yes, the point is you are supposed to RP. You're not supposed to get free passes or an easy life playing a character that's not human - caliban especially so. So you need to respect and RP that you're being chased out of town, not pause and be able to have lengthy conversations. At that moment, as in reality, the pressing tension is in the people chasing you off and your job is to flee to escape the chanting/mob. Otherwise aren't you just ignoring them?

[Tycat]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is.

While I agree with your opinion about how it can reflect the setting, the problem is that with how the game's interface is handled, message spam becomes a pain in the neck. Scrolling through your chat, attempting to find that random tell you got, or read what the people around you are saying is just irritating. The same effect can be achieved in a way that doesn't involve message spam for everyone is listening range.

People should be put off ease because of what's in front of them (like guards slowly advancing, setting you as hostile and drawing weapons), not because of "Oh god, that's 40 messages a second and I have no idea what is going on. Better scroll through this essay to find the emotes from that person I was talking to".

Fair point. Warning shots, say? Or maybe their heckling could just hoover over their head but some how be excluded from normal chat, or relegated as combat chatter and show up in the right side log?

Edit: Oops, didn't mean to double post that. Sorry for being spammy in a...heh... spam channel... *sweats*

[Destinysdesire]

[ U N P O P U L A R  O P I N I O N ]

It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I know spam is irritating to read, but I argue it's fine as it is. First of all, it's important to know that Radu won't out right murder you. He knocks you to 0 health and you can rise from that without rolling recovery. (don't ask me how I know this...) But you know, the spam does represent the heckling and indignation you'd receive from a mob. The setting is a horror setting and not meant to be comfortable existing in, it's supposed to push your buttons and break your character or try to. The way they react now is fine and I'd even argue it could be cranked up to 11 still.

The problem to your argument....is your also still supposed to be able to rp....anything that mass spams....takes you from the rp. I agree something like that sure...but unless NPCs start to mass gather....them repeating the same line 50,000,000,000 times over the course of 2 minutes...is outright pointless....and quite frankly...very immersion breaking because if they are that offended/scared of you....they aren't gonna really hang around...now if they summoned nearby Garda....that makes more sense.

Yes, the point is you are supposed to RP. You're not supposed to get free passes or an easy life playing a character that's not human - caliban especially so. So you need to respect and RP that you're being chased out of town, not pause and be able to have lengthy conversations. At that moment, as in reality, the pressing tension is in the people chasing you off and your job is to flee to escape the chanting/mob. Otherwise aren't you just ignoring them?

 

Sure but if your talking to the Gendermine who is...lets say...arresting you for something....its rather OOC to say....excuse me, can we move somewhere I can hear you threatening me...or can hear you telling me why your arresting me....yes you SHOULD never ignore NPCs.....doesn't mean I need to hear them 50 million times say the same damn line....

[Khornite]

Fair point. Warning shots, say? Or maybe their heckling could just hoover over their head but some how be excluded from normal chat, or relegated as combat chatter and show up in the right side log?

I think a 1 damage warning shot would be much better AFTER they get warnings from guard NPCs. The way I look at this is the same way I look at things like "artificial difficulty", maybe I can best present my point in this context. Let's look at two different games that are pretty difficult, Dark Souls and Eternal Darkness.

Dark Souls is hard by design, it's difficult but fair. No enemy is invincible, characters have unique weaknesses (Like sorcerers fighting things that can resist magic damage), but they can still be effective. Change up your tactics, learn your enemy, adapt, win. Dark Souls' combat can get pretty scary because of how it pressures you and how quickly the odds can turn against you.

Eternal Darkness on the other hand isn't difficult because it's designed to be difficult, it's difficult because the camera and controls were made by monkeys swallowing LSD by the gallon. Eternal Darkness' combat is scary because you end up running towards an enemy you were running away from when the camera shifted.

The same effect is achieved in both games, they're hard and scary. But one is difficult for the wrong reasons and just ends up being infinitely more frustrating because of the game's limitations. One has to take into account the limitations of a game and how that game's interface/mechanics can sometimes bring about the desired effect for the wrong reason.

[Destinysdesire]

Fair point. Warning shots, say? Or maybe their heckling could just hoover over their head but some how be excluded from normal chat, or relegated as combat chatter and show up in the right side log?

I think a 1 damage warning shot would be much better AFTER they get warnings from guard NPCs. The way I look at this is the same way I look at things like "artificial difficulty", maybe I can best present my point in this context. Let's look at two different games that are pretty difficult, Dark Souls and Eternal Darkness.

Dark Souls is hard by design, it's difficult but fair. No enemy is invincible, characters have unique weaknesses (Like sorcerers fighting things that can resist magic damage), but they can still be effective. Change up your tactics, learn your enemy, adapt, win. Dark Souls' combat can get pretty scary because of how it pressures you and how quickly the odds can turn against you.

Eternal Darkness on the other hand isn't difficult because it's designed to be difficult, it's difficult because the camera and controls were made by monkeys swallowing LSD by the gallon. Eternal Darkness' combat is scary because you end up running towards an enemy you were running away from when the camera shifted.

The same effect is achieved in both games, they're hard and scary. But one is difficult for the wrong reasons and just ends up being infinitely more frustrating because of the game's limitations. One has to take into account the limitations of a game and how that game's interface/mechanics can sometimes bring about the desired effect for the wrong reason.

This...this exactly...have the peasants start throwing things for 1 damage!!

[Khornite]

Fair point. Warning shots, say? Or maybe their heckling could just hoover over their head but some how be excluded from normal chat, or relegated as combat chatter and show up in the right side log?

I think a 1 damage warning shot would be much better AFTER they get warnings from guard NPCs. The way I look at this is the same way I look at things like "artificial difficulty", maybe I can best present my point in this context. Let's look at two different games that are pretty difficult, Dark Souls and Eternal Darkness.

Dark Souls is hard by design, it's difficult but fair. No enemy is invincible, characters have unique weaknesses (Like sorcerers fighting things that can resist magic damage), but they can still be effective. Change up your tactics, learn your enemy, adapt, win. Dark Souls' combat can get pretty scary because of how it pressures you and how quickly the odds can turn against you.

Eternal Darkness on the other hand isn't difficult because it's designed to be difficult, it's difficult because the camera and controls were made by monkeys swallowing LSD by the gallon. Eternal Darkness' combat is scary because you end up running towards an enemy you were running away from when the camera shifted.

The same effect is achieved in both games, they're hard and scary. But one is difficult for the wrong reasons and just ends up being infinitely more frustrating because of the game's limitations. One has to take into account the limitations of a game and how that game's interface/mechanics can sometimes bring about the desired effect for the wrong reason.

This...this exactly...have the peasants start throwing things for 1 damage!!

Could probably find a way to do it for 0 damage to represent them throwing fruit or something.

[Tycat]

I certainly did not suggest doing damage but if everyone is down... I am down.

I am sorry you lost me on the game analogies. I haven't played either and when people start talking about mechanics and blah blah blah I get lost. I just don't follow, usually because I think I consider different aspects of different things good for other reasons than most. IDK. Is the story compelling?

Back on track though, the plebs throwing fruit would be a nice touch. Here's something I noticed recently and it might be a touch left field, so bare with me.

I was playing my ranger and walked passed the orchard near Vallaki on the way to Llewellyns. Every other character I was on, when i enter the area i am given a description of purplish leaves and some flavor text about the trees. This time, on my ranger, I got a second flavor text that identified that they are in fact olive trees and that made me happy - that my being a ranger triggered a bit of text that my paladin could not trigger. I lieu of spammy threats from NPCs, perhaps playing these outcasts could trigger similar flavor texts when you get too close to civilization to put you at unease.

[FinalHeaven]

Walking past NPCs that are shouting at you isn't considered an "Ignoring NPCs" rulebreak, however.  That's the whole point of the OCR system, that it has escalating levels. 

Given that there are almost always multiple NPCs in one spot that shout I don't think it makes it any less uncomfortable to have a timer.  2-4 NPCs shout at you, then wait 60 seconds or so to shout again.  Especially considering when you move into sight of new NPCs they also shout.  Ideally the discomfort should be character oriented, not an OOC tedium.

[Tycat]

Now, I said it was ignoring NPCS to stand there and ignore them yelling at you and still going about your business, say, not walking past while they shout at  you, so for that point I do agree with you and said as much. As for the rest, I just simply don't agree with your point. I feel the spam is entirely IC and don't see how it is an OOC tedium. Playing these outcasts are hard mode and there's a curve to finding enjoyment on them. Though I am down for discussing reasonable solutions. I am strongly against making the server easier, let alone easier to casually dismiss the setting tropes and I feel making outcasts feel more comfortable lingering around town is damaging to immersion on all fronts.

[FinalHeaven]

Now, I said it was ignoring NPCS to stand there and ignore them yelling at you and still going about your business, say, not walking past while they shout at  you, so for that point I do agree with you and said as much. As for the rest, I just simply don't agree with your point. I feel the spam is entirely IC and don't see how it is an OOC tedium. Playing these outcasts are hard mode and there's a curve to finding enjoyment on them. Though I am down for discussing reasonable solutions. I am strongly against making the server easier, let alone easier to casually dismiss the setting tropes and I feel making outcasts feel more comfortable lingering around town is damaging to immersion on all fronts.

I think that whether or not playing an outcast is "hardmode" is fairly subjective.  I certainly don't find it hard to drink 1 low tier potion so that NPCs stop yelling. 

I am not sure I understand why making an NPC yell every minute rather than every 10 seconds undermines the entire outcast experience, especially when you consider that moving through an area triggers new NPCs on different timers.  The result is exactly the same - the character is blatantly aware that they are not welcome.  The only difference between the two is that one doesn't clog a chat box.  Is the constant spam of items being dumped into chest a key part of the merchant experience?

[Tycat]

Is the constant spam of items being dumped into chest a key part of the merchant experience?

110% not the same thing in the slightest. One is a feature, the other is a side effect. We do not have to agree on the point to respect each other's opinions, but we should always respect a different outlook when we do not agree. My opinion is that the "spam" of NPCs yelling at you is warranted and fine as it is, working as intended. I am all for alternatives like the suggested 0 hp damage fruit being thrown at you. That sounds amazing. A timer to me seems like getting off easy. You mention they can already chug a low level potion, so what's wrong with sticking to that? Making it easier to play an outcast hurts what makes Ravenloft genuine.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Is the constant spam of items being dumped into chest a key part of the merchant experience?

Nope, and the developers have taken a stance on that in two ways: introducing the bartering table (which hides item transfer messages), and Arawn's idea for compressing item transfer messages. It would be great if we could have messages hidden for player merchants' displays too, but that would lead to other problems.

For the NPC spam, I think the frequency of the messages should just go down. The NPC density in certain areas makes it ridiculous. I don't think it'd make it easier, they're still refusing the outcast any service if they're in angry mode, and all players around the outcast has to put up with the fact that what is occurring is very much IC, and hard to ignore, considering they even mention the name of the outcast when they emote being disgusted with them, at least in Dementlieu. It would be very clear to all players that an outcast is passing through even if they only repeated the message once every minute.

[ScalesofEquilibrium]

I completely agree with this - and it isn't too hard to ask to lower the frequency of these spams - simply a quality of life update for all involved. This is focused on the NPC 'upset' reactions. I don't think talking about the transfer of items spam here is conductive - but I will affirm that it, too, could use tweaking.

The example shows a PC guard being derailed from doing their job. I've personally witnessed it cause a DM to have to pause and interrupt their RP with players to solve the problem. So it interrupts all involved. Tweaking it is the least to ask for! Cheers!

[zDark Shadowz]

Kill the caliban freaks, they arent people.

The sheer noise of discontent being deafening would probably be better represented by actual sound if it werent for people that play with the sound off or are otherwise deaf.

[EO]

The point of the messages, constant or otherwise, is to drive the outcasts out of the area. The character shouldn't be staying in the area if they start hearing these messages. Now, the point of the outcast rating system is to clearly represent the way these characters would be treated, and essentially push them to the edge of society. If the messages are so sparse that they aren't disruptive, well people will most likely ignore them. Before the OcR system in Dementlieu, outcasts literally ignored the setting and chilled in outdoor areas freely. This, alone, proves that the OcR system is necessary to have people respect the setting, unfortunately.

While we may tone down the messages a bit in the future, it won't be to the point it's not disruptive, so outcasts can freely play there. Rather than being driven out of town by angry mobs, they would be driven out of town by the constant attention, ridicule, etc., and in that regards, the system works fine. The issue is people completely ignoring it to continue roleplaying, which borderlines on ignoring NPCs.

[phantasia]

I doubt the solution is to let the NPCs continue to spam obnoxiously, when people allegedly ignore it, resulting in no consequences for the outcast character (?).

A potential solution to make it unable to be ignored by players and the outcast players is to decrease the frequency of which the messages are spammed, and increase the danger of each message presented. What I mean is that the longer an outcast character lingers, the more messages pop up, and the higher their OCR ticks up as a result, forcing an outcome. One that perhaps can't decrease over time, as they gain permanent reputation for lurking where they don't belong.

Then again maybe it already works this way, but it isn't aggressive enough for me to personally have noticed on any outcast characters I've had in the past or others I've seen moving through the area. They just continue to yell.

[SardineTheAncestor]

The messages definitely won't be sparse even if they occur once every minute. With the sheer amount of NPCs present in most areas, the chatbox would inevitably be filled up each time the messages trigger, and the fact that every single one which perceives the outcast character plays an animation of shaking their arms in anger is nothing that can be ignored.

I think Phantasia's got the right of it. If we want people to not ignore the NPCs, it shouldn't be made difficult to see what other players are typing; in this case, just walking off while a Gendarme PC is trying to fine or apprehend them would not have made for richer or more setting-appropriate roleplay.