Smelting, Smithing, Gilding: The Slow Crawl

[Day Old Bread]

Might be they don't want to over-saturate the market with certain types of crafted gear.  Makes them less valuable.

Probably not the case, assuming you're referring to adamantine. The bottleneck with adamantine tends to be the supply of rocks, rather than waiting for a smith. After all, most groups on the server have one or two of the existing grandmaster smiths on speed dial.

Good point.

Personally though, I still like the idea of a master craftsman.  I honestly wish more crafts where like Blacksmithing in the level of difficulty it takes to really master it.

[Khornite]

Might be they don't want to over-saturate the market with certain types of crafted gear.  Makes them less valuable.

Probably not the case, assuming you're referring to adamantine. The bottleneck with adamantine tends to be the supply of rocks, rather than waiting for a smith. After all, most groups on the server have one or two of the existing grandmaster smiths on speed dial.

100% this. And access to meteors seems to be more of a hindrance lately now that they don't always fall. A lot of times people will go in, one or two will fall, and then no more will fall regardless of how long they are there. The fact that 50% of the area is inaccessible and meteors can fall in those out-of-bounds areas doesn't help either.

[MAB77]

What's the problem with having multiple grandmaster crafters at once? It means it won't always be the same people getting the RP, and it makes the crafts accessible to more people.

The keyword was "too many". Nothing wrong with several grand masters around. The current in-game balance seems adequate.

[Nemesis 24]

What's the problem with having multiple grandmaster crafters at once? It means it won't always be the same people getting the RP, and it makes the crafts accessible to more people.

The keyword was "too many". Nothing wrong with several grand masters around. The current in-game balance seems adequate.

There are, to my knowledge, two such people.  Only two, both of which were grandmasters before the changes.  I am not sure there is anyone who has mastered the crafts since the changes went in, but I would gladly be disabused of this notion.   However there is a consequence of this excessive grind.

The server culture is, and has been, for a very long time, been based around character closure, and moving on to new characters.  This is at direct odds with the crafting levelling requirements, particularly if my observation about current grandmasters is in fact correct.  If the work to master crafts is excessive, for no other reason than to artificially keep numbers low  (which by the way is based on an abstract observation, less of a direct in game observation, and secondly honestly achieves little if not nothing other than just having a low number to rely upon) then the individuals who master crafts have next to zero motivation to closure said characters and create new stories.  In fact, its two fold.  Not only are they not motivated to do so because the idea of starting again is, to all observations, a ghastly, horrible and draining concept, but the players need them to remain.  The alternatives simply are not present.  There is enough perpetual demand to always keep them in play.  This is a direct contravention to character closure culture.  You are asking what appears to be an excessive demand for people to go through that drudgery and then have to do it again over and over.

Simply put, if you want to encourage server culture of closure and people making new characters and stories, rather than being around forever, making crafting a fun diversion and not a mind numbing chore would be a good place to start.  As it is, personally speaking?  I'd rather sit in a tavern for hours with no one around than pick up a mining pick for so much as one minute.

[Khornite]

What's the problem with having multiple grandmaster crafters at once? It means it won't always be the same people getting the RP, and it makes the crafts accessible to more people.

The keyword was "too many". Nothing wrong with several grand masters around. The current in-game balance seems adequate.

There are, to my knowledge, two such people.  Only two, both of which were grandmasters before the changes.  I am not sure there is anyone who has mastered the crafts since the changes went in, but I would gladly be disabused of this notion.   However there is a consequence of this excessive grind.

There's about six or eight grandmasters (Active and semi-active) that I've found right now, actually. My character (One of the ones you are likely alluding to, in fact) did a lot of research into the trade and other blacksmiths before getting involved in adamantine as the character's goal was to get prices DOWN on adamantine gear. Quite a few came about -after- the updates (Myself included). Not everyone advertises their services, or even intends to because they know how boring it can be to gather adamantine. Some of those have even quit smithing because it's just not profitable for some characters (And those characters WERE grandmasters, I might add). It takes a massive cash investment to get to grandmastery  (Just getting from level 59 to 60 cost me about 35,000 gold in JUST templates), and the only thing that really brings a payday is adamantine. Adamantine might SEEM like it brings in a ton of coin, but in reality it costs an arm and a leg to fund adamantine harvesting for most non-magic characters. There's times where I'd spend 10k-20k on a single trip because something goes wrong and I have to use more potions than expected only to get zero ingots from the entire trip. The luck of the draw for adamantine is sometimes so bad that I could sell a suit of full plate for a quarter million and only make like 30k in profits. A single trip to go and get adamantine can take upwards of two hours and that's generally two boring hours of killing the same enemies over and over and over or stealthing while counting meteors. And then there's the issue where we have to make tons and tons of trips so that the people who are expecting items from us will stop blowing up our tells or discords asking for updates.

So I will respectfully inform you that your assumptions are incorrect.

[Nemesis 24]

What's the problem with having multiple grandmaster crafters at once? It means it won't always be the same people getting the RP, and it makes the crafts accessible to more people.

The keyword was "too many". Nothing wrong with several grand masters around. The current in-game balance seems adequate.

There are, to my knowledge, two such people.  Only two, both of which were grandmasters before the changes.  I am not sure there is anyone who has mastered the crafts since the changes went in, but I would gladly be disabused of this notion.   However there is a consequence of this excessive grind.

*Snip*

So I will respectfully inform you that your assumptions are incorrect.

I'll take that, but also point out, if they're not known about, then they might as well not exist.  And also respectfully, if a person is quitting or semi active to get away from crafting tells, this is also a severe problem.  We have over a hundred active players during peak, and the crafting demand is high enough that even that six to eight is clearly too few.  Thats six to eight overall, and not at any one time.  For a hundred people, there should be around half a dozen at any one time at minimum who even have the ability to help out.  Never mind the inclination. 

In fact, I'd actually argue you've reinforced my point rather than detracted from it.   Your story there illustrates the very sort of horrendous grind, time investment, and cost that I just argued is far, far too high to be worthwhile.  The people blowing up tells and discords begging for equipment.  Personally with Adamantine?  I'd prefer it didn't exist, but it does and the system for it is what it is.  Its already far too common, from all accounts.  But the system has been created and now we must live with it. 

My argument is smithing should be made not slightly easier, but far easier.  Again, to encourage new characters, new players, new stories, without the dread of that awful craft hanging overhead, 'or' giving current grandmasters false 'overattachment'.  The crafting system as it currently stands, in particular smithing, is directly and completely opposed to that aspect of server culture of closure.

[Khornite]

Again, to encourage new characters, new players, new stories, without the dread of that awful craft hanging overhead, 'or' giving current grandmasters false 'overattachment'.  The crafting system as it currently stands, in particular smithing, is directly and completely opposed to that aspect of server culture of closure.

Or instead of trying to encourage people to do something they don't want to do, we can just let people have fun the way they want? In my instance, the reason why I don't have an alt currently has nothing to do with the crafting but the fact that the grind and the equipment hunt is a neverending chore. I've grinded up from level 2 to the 15 range on six different characters that have all been killed off. I just don't think going through the slog of lowbie grinding for a seventh time is fun. Killing minks and rats is only fun for so long.

Additionally, the reason I bring up that there are more grandmasters than there seems to be is to show that it's really not an impossible task. There are plenty of characters out there willing to mentor and sponsor other crafters, my character did just that for an herbalist, an alchemist, a smith and a woodworker. There's tons of opportunities for apprenticeship RP and many smiths are willing to teach and sponsor, but apprenticeship is rarely considered outside of PRC applications. The most I'll usually get along those lines is someone shooting me a tell asking for a walkthrough on the fastest way to get to level 60 in smithing. Instead of looking at the obstacles and saying the system needs to be changed, look at how to solve the problem via RP.

Let me give you an example. Gilding used to be HORRID to level. An absolute nightmare. No one wanted to invest the astronomical amount of coin that was needed to level up to level 10 on mostly failures. That led to a severe lack of gilders on the server. So what happened? A group of merchants approached my character and threw a ton of gold (about 300k) and materials at my character to sponsor gilding training so that people could get access to silver gilded weapons. Tons and tons of RP came from that, people just had to get creative.

[Ophie Kitty]

I spent over 2,500 documented hours of crafting and gathering to be nearly a grandmaster in every profession (not tailoring or enchanting) after the original changes. I kept spreadsheets of everything I did from gathering to craft-tool spamming. Smithing, leatherworking, and woodworking in particular suffer both from being exuberantly grindy and repetitive; and inefficient with productivity. One crafter in a given profession tends to produce more excess than the server would need for their lifespan. I pretty much only ever sold about 10-15% of the products I made, It was just time inefficient to try and sell it all while still trying to make progress on the crafts to make better things.

[MatticusCaesar]

Enslave Muses to your will. I recommend having at least five chained to the smelter while you’re at it.

Sadly the bonus doesn't stack :,(

No firsthand experience, but I've heard many times it does.

Unless there was a very recent change to this, Iridni is correct, it absolutely does stack.  I will never forget the day there was a small "band" playing in the Vallaki Crafting Hall and everyone in there was getting a +8 crafting roll bonus 

[MAB77]

Remember that the upcoming update aims to make it much faster for casual crafters to turn in a profit. Steel items dc for instance will all be lowered to current bronze dc. The point being you won't have to be a grandmaster to be a succesful crafter. Steel items will remain the bulk of what is being sold out there.

It's not a solution to all crafting woes but a step in a good direction.

[MatticusCaesar]

Additionally, the reason I bring up that there are more grandmasters than there seems to be is to show that it's really not an impossible task. There are plenty of characters out there willing to mentor and sponsor other crafters, my character did just that for an herbalist, an alchemist, a smith and a woodworker. There's tons of opportunities for apprenticeship RP and many smiths are willing to teach and sponsor, but apprenticeship is rarely considered outside of PRC applications. The most I'll usually get along those lines is someone shooting me a tell asking for a walkthrough on the fastest way to get to level 60 in smithing. Instead of looking at the obstacles and saying the system needs to be changed, look at how to solve the problem via RP.

100%
The wall of green text in my chat window some days re: "How do I ..." for crafting stuff is astounding.  I used to try to help a lot that way, but it became unmanageable and now my response is mostly "come find me ICly."

I've got 3-4 apprentices as it stands, so the RP opportunities are there, for sure.  It's been fun.

[PrimetheGrime]

Again, to encourage new characters, new players, new stories, without the dread of that awful craft hanging overhead, 'or' giving current grandmasters false 'overattachment'.  The crafting system as it currently stands, in particular smithing, is directly and completely opposed to that aspect of server culture of closure.

Let me give you an example. Gilding used to be HORRID to level. An absolute nightmare. No one wanted to invest the astronomical amount of coin that was needed to level up to level 10 on mostly failures. That led to a severe lack of gilders on the server. So what happened? A group of merchants approached my character and threw a ton of gold (about 300k) and materials at my character to sponsor gilding training so that people could get access to silver gilded weapons. Tons and tons of RP came from that, people just had to get creative.

With respect, that is less about creativity and more about having the funds to do so for 1, and for 2, having that opportunity to fall in your lap. That's not the norm and likely never will be.

I was aware that gilding used to cost more. I'm fine with the price as it is, if there is compensation in the form of CXP gain, which is very low. Adding Roleplay to the element of Smithing is grand and I don't dispute that being good and needed, however, I don't believe it should be hand in hand with heavy grinds. I have other things I want to do with my life than just smith or craft. Whilst I acknowledge that you know ways to grind to the top quicker, you should understand that not all of us do, nor do we know every person on the server that has that information. I had a mentor, they taught me what they knew. The fact is without those tips you mentioned, players wont know how to get through the slog quickly and will either lose interest or slowly go insane. This is detrimental to crafting growth because as you mentioned already, there are semi active crafters and those who have chosen to quit it (understandably so). Leaving only a handful of master crafters behind. I'd like to add on top of this however, I'm not looking to be a master smith. Adamantine really isn't my goal, working steel and being able to gild it competently was.  Why we require 30 smithing to gild is still a mystery to me.

I'll be waiting to see how the update shakes things up, but this thread was to give my feedback on smithing and my experience with it which was a long slog as I mentioned prior. A friend of mine added in his two cents with his own idea as well and I promised him I'd post it on his behalf:

But yeah the only suggestion I can think of that isn't a lot of coding is adding a craftable hammer that gives a skill bonus. Hell, make smiths able to make an array of goods that award bonuses to certain professions. Smithing hammers for smiths, tongs for smelting or gilding, masterwork leatherworking tools, carpentry tools, etc. Even if it's just a +1 bonus, people would trip over themselves to buy them

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

In my personal experience, crafting grand masters on the server are at a good place and have pretty much stayed in balance over the past few years. If we go back before the recent spike in players, I knew about 4 crafting masters. Now I know 7 grand masters, which seems fairly proportional to the spike in players. I know at least two of those grandmasters came about after the more recent crafting updates. I think the system is perfectly in balance, though I’m looking forward to seeing what the new changes will bring.

[MAB77]

I’m looking forward to seeing what the new changes will bring.

We're nearly doubling the amount of metal types and wood essences.

In effect iron and bronze will share the same DC as current copper. Steel to take the place of current bronze.

New ways of using existing components.

Exotic components obtainable by loot drops.

A new weaving craft. Complete overhaul of the tailoring system.

Rebalance of potions DC for a smoother progression, some corrections to make sure all of the herbs last implemented properly spawn. Possibility to make a same potion at different strength levels.

New leather types. Curing and hide boiling made significantly less painful.

[Khornite]

New leather types. Curing and hide boiling made significantly less painful.

Thank god, leather boiling was a nightmare to level. The ancient dire beasts are always a pain to get. Can we maybe make it so more components can create sturdy boiled leather?

[MAB77]

Let's assess the efficiency of the change first. It should yield much more product anyway.

[SardineTheAncestor]

With respect, that is less about creativity and more about having the funds to do so for 1, and for 2, having that opportunity to fall in your lap. That's not the norm and likely never will be.

Not sure this can be taken in any respectful way.

This kind of "opportunity" only falls in your lap if you play consistently and your character surrounds themselves with the kind of people they are comfortable working with. That someone is not creative because they found a solution out of the problem they were having, and worked with others toward that end, pooling money and effort, and giving back to the community around them all the while, is a pretty unfair extrapolation of what he said. Time spent crafting isn't necessarily time spent not RPing. Plenty of people pursue it as a facet of their roleplay; just as people are IC when in dungeons with each other, a group of people working together to progress their crafts is very much IC and the entire point of the system in the first place. Otherwise, the guarantee of enchanted gear would just be a suite of gear you buy at a vendor, rather than build it yourself or wait for it to drop, and then enchant later. The end result is the same, without the RP of coming together to do so.

I am not supporting the tedium or the grind -- no one is. But you simply can't break this down and say the people who have opted to RP with others to cope with that grind aren't choosing the best route possible not only for their sanity's sake but for the sake of RP. That's what he's talking about. We are all happy the crafting update is going to reduce the grind as an iterative change (one of many iterations going in the right direction), not because it makes our jobs easier (we've maxed out our crafts anyway) but because this means we will have more people to RP with as far as getting them into crafting and their grind will be less tedious so as to burn them out less and let them focus on the RP.

We all agree here, I'm just not happy with the wording you have chosen for your post. The idea that people who put a lot of time in, who jumped through hoops, who met up with and cooperated with as many people as possible, weren't being creative, or were simply enjoying the fruits of an opportunity that "fell in their lap." It is just not true. It is an entirely normal thing to do, to cooperate with others to reduce the workload, so it can and should be the norm. edit: And it was for my character (she has been a part of 3-4 different crafting troupes). And it was for the dozens of characters that Khornite's character has helped along their path. He is qualified to make that claim, that there are people out there who will help, who will pool resources, even without the promise of anything in return besides roleplay, because he was there to help people. It's not abnormal if this is something he does normally; to the contrary, many other high level crafters have and continue to help others out, and wealthy characters, even those who do still have things to spend their money on, will sponsor crafters, too, so as far as I can see it, having been doing this on and off for the past year, it is the norm.

[vvolatile]

If I were a gilder, however, I can also see being upset that the barrier to entry was lowered after I went through such torture myself.

This is a mentality in video games that needs to go away. This is akin to being a hundred year old polio survivor who is salty that kids these days don't have to deal with polio.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I think Iridni is relating with this comment, that it is a very human thing to feel, but it is indeed irrefutably irrational. All of the high level crafters I know are thinking positive about the entry level accessibility increase, including myself. I briefly touch on why in my post above.

[PrimetheGrime]

Not sure this can be taken in any respectful way.

Then you need to have another read. I was blunt, but clear on my points.

This kind of "opportunity" only falls in your lap if you play consistently and your character surrounds themselves with the kind of people they are comfortable working with. That someone is not creative because they found a solution out of the problem they were having, and worked with others toward that end, pooling money and effort, and giving back to the community around them all the while, is a pretty unfair extrapolation of what he said.

It's not an unfair extrapolation at all. Merchants willing to toss that level of coin at people are few and far between, social butterfly or not. I've been playing long enough to know this. Nor did I say it was not creative. I said it was less about being creative and more about the situation they found themselves in, which is a boonful one, but a rare occurrence all the same.

Time spent crafting isn't necessarily time spent not RPing. Plenty of people pursue it as a facet of their roleplay; just as people are IC when in dungeons with each other, a group of people working together to progress their crafts is very much IC and the entire point of the system in the first place.

Not necessarily, no. But I would not force someone to follow me down to a dingy lit cellar to roleplay as I play carpal tunnel simulator for several hours. That's not fun for either party. Roleplaying the smithing process can be an immensely enjoyable thing, but grinding takes the fun of that away for some, including myself. Not everyone wishes to work on such a craft and I can't blame them for that. Yes, you -can- have groups, but they are not required nor should they be required if you wish to dedicate to yourself alone.

Otherwise, the guarantee of enchanted gear would just be a suite of gear you buy at a vendor, rather than build it yourself or wait for it to drop, and then enchant later. The end result is the same, without the RP of coming together to do so.

I never once mentioned enchanted gear, I merely focused on the grind of smithing, smelting and gilding.

I am not supporting the tedium or the grind -- no one is. But you simply can't break this down and say the people who have opted to RP with others to cope with that grind aren't choosing the best route possible not only for their sanity's sake but for the sake of RP.

You're putting words in my mouth, and I'd prefer you didn't, thanks.

That's what he's talking about. We are all happy the crafting update is going to reduce the grind as an iterative change (one of many iterations going in the right direction), not because it makes our jobs easier (we've maxed out our crafts anyway) but because this means we will have more people to RP with as far as getting them into crafting and their grind will be less tedious so as to burn them out less and let them focus on the RP.

I haven't maxed out anything. I'm merely wishing to reach a comfortable place to do what -I- wish to do, which really isn't asking all that much. Not everyone wants to shoot for the top.

We all agree here, I'm just not happy with the wording you have chosen for your post. The idea that people who put a lot of time in, who jumped through hoops, who met up with and cooperated with as many people as possible, weren't being creative, or were simply enjoying the fruits of an opportunity that "fell in their lap." It is just not true. It is an entirely normal thing to do, to cooperate with others to reduce the workload, so it can and should be the norm. edit: And it was for my character (she has been a part of 3-4 different crafting troupes). And it was for the dozens of characters that Khornite's character has helped along their path. He is qualified to make that claim, that there are people out there who will help, who will pool resources, even without the promise of anything in return besides roleplay, because he was there to help people. It's not abnormal if this is something he does normally; to the contrary, many other high level crafters have and continue to help others out, and wealthy characters, even those who do still have things to spend their money on, will sponsor crafters, too, so as far as I can see it, having been doing this on and off for the past year, it is the norm.

Clearly I've touched a nerve, but I think you need to put your foot off the pedal and not take what I'm saying as an insult to Khornite, merely pointing out to him (via my own years of experience) That this is not the norm, no matter how social you are. 300k is nothing to sneeze at, and merchants don't like to spend that much willy nilly. Now that I've cleared that up, your experiences aren't the same as mine, just as mine aren't the same as someone else. Crafters tend to be very giving folk and that's something to be admired, but do not make the assumption that all crafters do this or wish to.

[SardineTheAncestor]

No such assumption was made by me. Your quote indeed very clearly and bluntly states that you think Khornite was handed all of this and it had little to do with what he put in. Now that he's given back far more than was given to him, the entire theory is bunk. He didn't even edit: reveal the full story about what happened, that it benefited them too, you have chosen to be pessimistic about it, rather than approach the situation with optimism. You have chosen to believe that you have stricken a nerve, because it's convenient to backpedal and say that your comment wasn't personal and I'm overreacting, when it very much was, and I am not. If someone participates in, contributes to, or creates a situation, and that situation benefits them, they are, personally, at least partially responsible for it, significantly moreso if they are one of the people who put in a lot, and he was. His own contribution can't be understated in any respectful manner; attributing this situation to "mostly" luck or "partly" luck or "somewhat" luck doesn't matter, it's all semantics, a way of dancing around the point rather than diving into it. The direct truth without sugar coating is that it wasn't luck, rather it was the product of roleplay that occurred.

He was one of the main movers in this situation. He deserves just as much credit as anyone else pulling the strings for putting in the time, effort, and creativity to be a part of the roleplay surrounding this situation and make the best of the scenario no matter how grindy it was. The assumption that people just gave this stuff to him for free is wrong and the act of assuming is indeed unfair. It did not fall into his lap, it was about his own creativity, and it wasn't a lucky chance occurrence. It was the result of his time and effort and the cooperation of a group of people. This happens all the time, so yes, it is the norm. That 300k in assets moved doesn't make the situation unique. Far more out of proportion trades occur regularly, this was just scaled up during a unique time.

If you want to craft alone, feel free, but nothing about this server is painless alone. This is not the only part of the new player experience that is brutal, and soloing is risky at any level. The good news is updates continue to roll out to change that new player experience for the better, and the incoming crafting update will bring relief to that angle. Nowhere have I said I am opposed to that, nowhere have I implied I am comfortable with it being grindy, rather I am glad these changes are coming and have been posting in support of MAB's decision (along with the rest of the dev team).

On the thing about those who have mastered their craft, I was talking about Khornite, myself, and a handful of others who have posted on this thread, who have discussed the crafting update on the public Discord, etc. and all reacted positively to it. We will not directly benefit; our crafts will not become easier overnight, but anyone who is currently producing bronze will be producing steel, and anyone starting fresh will have a much quicker time, which is indirectly to our benefit, because it means more people to RP with regarding crafting. The context is very important to take into account, as it's the only reason I stated it: if people wanted to wait to start crafting until after the update, they'd be proving our point (one you and I agree on) that more people will participate and enjoy themselves if it's less grindy, and more roleplay will result. This fantastic change has been a long time coming but we will have to be patient as the devs are (or possibly just MAB is) working with a very finicky system, one of the more difficult to modify parts of the module, from previous comments made on it.

[MAB77]

Please keep the post constructive and on topic.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

If I were a gilder, however, I can also see being upset that the barrier to entry was lowered after I went through such torture myself.

This is a mentality in video games that needs to go away. This is akin to being a hundred year old polio survivor who is salty that kids these days don't have to deal with polio.

I think it may be better if we refrain from comparing grinding on a video game to going through life as a polio survivor...

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

New leather types. Curing and hide boiling made significantly less painful.

Thank god, leather boiling was a nightmare to level. The ancient dire beasts are always a pain to get. Can we maybe make it so more components can create sturdy boiled leather?

Ancient Dire Bear is not currently the only way to get sturdy boiled leather. There is at least one, although I believe multiple other ways to do it.

[Khornite]

New leather types. Curing and hide boiling made significantly less painful.

Thank god, leather boiling was a nightmare to level. The ancient dire beasts are always a pain to get. Can we maybe make it so more components can create sturdy boiled leather?

Ancient Dire Bear is not currently the only way to get sturdy boiled leather. There is at least one, although I believe multiple other ways to do it.

I never said it was? I said "beasts" not "bear".