Author Topic: Disguise and shapechanging  (Read 3112 times)

gotesu

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Disguise and shapechanging
« on: June 11, 2020, 02:43:21 AM »
Hi everyone.

As people sometimes use wildshape/polymorph/shapechange with rp in mind, and since an actual change in form should not enable anyone, no matter how high is their spot rank to "see" through the identity of a polymorphed individual, I was thinking to suggest adding an impossible-to-beat disguise skill bonus to a shapechanged character (while he is in another form).

This would enable using shapeshifting in such a way to hide one's identity without having it metagamed easily with the examine tool.

Thoughts?

Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2020, 02:45:27 AM »
We have a mechanical system for this in line with 3.5 rules coming in an upcoming update.
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Bastard Son

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2020, 02:46:53 AM »
If the name comes up in the examine tool and they know you, its not metagaming. They've identified you through IC means.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2020, 02:48:11 AM »
What OP is stating is that they think the current system is a bit.. Odd for that. Arawn has stated they intend to implement some sort of system to support what OP is suggesting, so whilst this is currently the case (unless stated otherwise at some point) it's likely it won't be in the future.

Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2020, 02:51:51 AM »
Both of the previous posts are correct.
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King Pickle

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2020, 04:13:54 AM »
If see a bear or a werewolf and go: "I know who that is! That's Puppi Dogfondler, the halfling!"
And then another PC asks me: "How do you know?"

What should I say?

Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2020, 04:18:53 AM »
If see a bear or a werewolf and go: "I know who that is! That's Puppi Dogfondler, the halfling!"
And then another PC asks me: "How do you know?"

What should I say?

Mannerisms, behaviors, associations. Many of the nonverbal things that mark an individual. There's a pretty hefty penalty to compensate for how difficult this is.
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Destinysdesire

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2020, 04:39:46 AM »
If see a bear or a werewolf and go: "I know who that is! That's Puppi Dogfondler, the halfling!"
And then another PC asks me: "How do you know?"

What should I say?

In the case of my Druid, most recognize her by her emerald green eyes, which is not the normal color of a Dire Wolf.  I mean....how DO you know its Puppi Dogfondler? What makes them stand out? Why does your character realize that said bear is Puppi?

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 10:47:01 AM »
So, to be clear, piercing a disguise on someone you're familiar with, no matter what form they're in, gives your character their precise identity?

And this is the same for MPCs with "secret identities," like werewolves? Gas-form vampires?

Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2020, 10:50:59 AM »
So, to be clear, piercing a disguise on someone you're familiar with, no matter what form they're in, gives your character their precise identity?

And this is the same for MPCs with "secret identities," like werewolves? Gas-form vampires?

The rule is that if you can break the Disguise, you get the name. We will be altering the system to account better for polymorphing, but this is how the system is set up currently.
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Day Old Bread

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2020, 12:06:10 PM »
So, to be clear, piercing a disguise on someone you're familiar with, no matter what form they're in, gives your character their precise identity?

And this is the same for MPCs with "secret identities," like werewolves? Gas-form vampires?

The rule is that if you can break the Disguise, you get the name. We will be altering the system to account better for polymorphing, but this is how the system is set up currently.

And just because you can get the name in it's current state, does not mean you as a player have to decide that you know this.  The floating name above a players head doesn't mean you ICly know their name.  I would argue the same is true of disguises.  If you don't know them, their name means nothing to you.  It's not as if they're wearing a sticker on their chest that says "Hello my name is"  I think this really only applies to characters your character knows.

Correct me if I am wrong on this please DM's

ObsidianOrb

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2020, 07:20:28 AM »
Surely polymorphing into a freaking wolf overrides any disguise check nonesense, and the mechanics of a game that's 18 years old? Come on people, can't we just be courteous, and grown up? You see a wolf, OK, it's a wolf, a freaking wolf.

 :banghead:

FinalHeaven

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2020, 11:10:24 AM »
Surely polymorphing into a freaking wolf overrides any disguise check nonesense, and the mechanics of a game that's 18 years old? Come on people, can't we just be courteous, and grown up? You see a wolf, OK, it's a wolf, a freaking wolf.

 :banghead:

If you already knew the person and you break their disguise while they are in polymorph (assuming you have a legitimate reason to do so), you recognize them due to mannerisms and behaviors.



BraveSirRobin

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 11:30:31 AM »
Surely polymorphing into a freaking wolf overrides any disguise check nonesense, and the mechanics of a game that's 18 years old? Come on people, can't we just be courteous, and grown up? You see a wolf, OK, it's a wolf, a freaking wolf.

 :banghead:

If you already knew the person and you break their disguise while they are in polymorph (assuming you have a legitimate reason to do so), you recognize them due to mannerisms and behaviors.

Correct. An interesting footnote for this discussion, there was talk about physical clothing/items on a character revealing who they are even if in disguise. In example, JOHN is wearing a red coat. JOHN becomes JEFF in disguise, but does not change his clothes and uses the same weapon. You fail to break the disguise for JEFF. The fact JOHN wore the same red coat does not mean you can deduce or come to the conclusion it is a disguise.

When this system was first released, a DM (I don’t remember which, really) told me that it in a situation like that, you could assume what your character does. However, with the implementation of the spell Disguise Self, a spell which by its description, “You make yourself - including cloth, armor, weapons and equipment - look different, gaining a +10 skill bonus to Disguise,” indicates that you cannot WYSIWYG the matter due to the presence of Illusion School Glamers that will disguise you via an illusion.

This creates an interesting paradox where physically changing your form via polymorph magic can be pierced, but keeping your same clothes and finger-waving that they’re different via Glamers is iron clad. If a DM could confirm this, just to make sure I understand everything correctly, it would be appreciated.

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 11:35:16 AM »
I think you are overthinking the system and Disguise Self. The description is fluff, much like Camouflage's, just a way to explain the sudden +10 bonus to Disguise. I wouldn't read more than that into it.

Quote
Description: The caster's coloring changes to match the surroundings, gaining a +10 competence bonus to any hide checks.

I doubt anyone RPs their clothing suddenly changing colors with Camouflage.

Ultimately if your PC can deduce that the person you are talking to is disguised, you can RP it. All the system does is add a layer of protection against metagaming by actually changing the name/description/portrait but it's up to the RPer to make an effort to change their mannerisms, approach, etc.

ObsidianOrb

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2020, 12:54:37 PM »
What sort of mannerisms would you display as a wolf, or a bear, or any other none humanoid creature?

Agony

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2020, 01:14:13 PM »
What sort of mannerisms would you display as a wolf, or a bear, or any other none humanoid creature?

The angle you hold your head when you are curious about something, the rhythm and tempo of your gait, your general posture. Animals do sometimes remind us of actual people, so it isn't all that far fetched. Not to mention things you might notice like markings that carry over, eyes that are too intelligent to be animal, etc.

Also, in D&D, True Seeing sees right through it not matter what. It doesn't on PotM, so this seems a good middle ground to me.


Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2020, 01:36:21 PM »
What sort of mannerisms would you display as a wolf, or a bear, or any other none humanoid creature?

The angle you hold your head when you are curious about something, the rhythm and tempo of your gait, your general posture. Animals do sometimes remind us of actual people, so it isn't all that far fetched. Not to mention things you might notice like markings that carry over, eyes that are too intelligent to be animal, etc.

Also, in D&D, True Seeing sees right through it not matter what. It doesn't on PotM, so this seems a good middle ground to me.

Our planned implementation is that True Seeing will let you identify the person if you beat their Disguise, whereas without it you can only tell that they are a polymorphed person.
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Agony

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2020, 01:38:45 PM »
Our planned implementation is that True Seeing will let you identify the person if you beat their Disguise, whereas without it you can only tell that they are a polymorphed person.

Good to know! Thank you for the clarification!


ObsidianOrb

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2020, 02:40:38 PM »
 :roll: Well it's a shame, but I guess we can't just play nice. I would have hoped that, if someone went to the effort of casting a spell to look like a wolf, that people would walk by and say,

"Oh look over there, its a wolf"

not "HI GARRY!!!"

I'm out, and a little disappointed, but I'm out.

Amon-Si

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2020, 09:29:54 PM »
To diverge slightly, will this aid people in spotting that someone has been cursed with baleful polymorph even if they've been changed so long as to lose their higher consciousness?

Maffa

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 06:38:24 AM »
William of Ockham would really love to read this thread... had to register because this is quite too much to bear.

You see someone you have never met.
As the very best scenario for the argument of being able to recognise someone with a different face by other means, let's assume they have:
- the very same build
- the very same clothes, clothes that are so peculiar and one of a kind they cannot be mistaken for somebody else's

your first thought is not "My friend has been mugged and now lies butt naked and unconscious in a ditch somewhere", but "hey cool magic!" I am quite old, and i have known some my friends for 30+ years, and i am sure as hell i will not be able to recognise any of their apparel around.

I will not ever go into the whole "recognizing not humanoid sized stuff for friends" cos that's beyond mental and poor William would probably use his razor to cut his throat. 

"Mh, that frog has the same air about it like when Steve is thinking something silly". C'mon. I understand magic and stuff but thinking to be able to recognize a werewolf as your friend because it has the very same green eyes as her... It has been quite a long time since i last Dm'd... how much do you know about werewolves as to strike out the chances that it might be a not uncommon occurrence among them? You see a werewolf you act like you act everythime you see a werewolf -either flee or fight (or say hi, i mean i am not judging you hey).
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 06:58:46 AM by Maffa »


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Arawn

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 07:05:25 AM »
The plot of a hundred horror movies turns on the crux of the realization that the monster was once human, or even, from their behavior, that they were someone that the character knew. Obviously, it's more difficult to recognize this, which is why there is a +10 bonus to the Disguise roll.

In any case, if you read above, you'll see that we're bringing this system in line with 3.5 shortly, which will render most of the posts in this topic moot.
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Nemesis 24

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2020, 10:05:24 AM »
:roll: Well it's a shame, but I guess we can't just play nice. I would have hoped that, if someone went to the effort of casting a spell to look like a wolf, that people would walk by and say,

"Oh look over there, its a wolf"

not "HI GARRY!!!"

I'm out, and a little disappointed, but I'm out.

Noting this older post, I have to admit this begs a question, in regards to disguise and opting into PvP.  Because I admit my characters wouldn't go 'Oh look over there, its a wolf', so much as pull out a ranged weapon and open fire on them.  Just as they have with any number of animals before.  If there is no way to tell the difference if you can't break the disguise, then the natural reaction is generally an aggressive one, especially in Barovia.  I'm going to think the correct procedure is to make a warning In Character of threatening gestures to the 'animal', but it 'would' be permissible to open fire eventually, correct?  With a type of animal known to be aggressive, I mean.  Otherwise, if you want to be an animal, and have no possibility of having disguise broken as a result, then you should recognise you do not get to have your cake and eat it too.  If you want to be an animal, indistinguishable from another animal in any way, expect to be shot for being one as well, which would be an entirely reasonable and in character reaction to make for a vast number of reasons.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:07:33 AM by Nemesis 24 »

Maffa

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Re: Disguise and shapechanging
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2020, 10:07:48 AM »
The plot of a hundred horror movies turns on the crux of the realization that the monster was once human, or even, from their behavior, that they were someone that the character knew. Obviously, it's more difficult to recognize this, which is why there is a +10 bonus to the Disguise roll.

That'd be a a very short movie indeed if it's all resolved with a glance... it usually takes the WHOLE movie to realise not only that the monster was in fact not only a human, but also a specific human.
In any case, if you read above, you'll see that we're bringing this system in line with 3.5 shortly, which will render most of the posts in this topic moot.
Which i understand and respect, but the assumption that more than one would be able to do so really didnt sit right with me


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