The curse song rule, changes to the hostile system/bard song

[SardineTheAncestor]

I think it's great to prevent people from accidentally metagaming by asking them not to use Curse Song so there is no threat of the damage log reporting that "Someone took damage." I think it's great, also, that we made it so you can't exploit by hostiling the server and resting to learn if there's someone behind a door or something. The trap changes look like they will be helpful to cut down on spam too.

However, it's become clear to me that the @server hostile spam hasn't really changed since the curse song rule was implemented.

I also think our hostile system, while I'm sure it's working as currently intended, could have room for expansion or modification.

Spoiler: show

Most of the systems on the server seem to have been designed for when it was normal to have 30-40 players around. Now that we have a 75+ player peak, things are different. You really notice the caravan wait times, and some days there's a line up to 10 minutes. The merchant cleanup script is a thing now to prevent lag from vendor inventories. Every now and then, people complain that every dungeon is completely wiped out and they can't get their adventure fix even after covering most of a domain, to the point that even with new dungeons being added & old dungeons made easier or being given more rewarding loot, this complaint still surfaces periodically.

These are all things that will change with time based on what the developers decide to do and if players decide to group up more instead of using the caravan alone, or travel the mists to get to their destination more, or simply adventure less and linger in one place more. Some people might not even be aware of the fact that these things happen from time to time or that people complain about them, because of their playstyle or other reasons.

But this thread isn't about things that are based on scale. The hostile server function ignores all notions of scale and alerts the entire server, with a message that floats up above your character's head, that some bard somewhere is using Bard Song in a bid to detect nearby hidden characters. Or that someone somewhere is using Ethereal Jaunt. Or that a rogue is using traps for PvE and he's worried he might hit another rogue (and this is being changed). They could be in your area or they could be across the entire server, 20+ minutes of travel away, locked behind plot doors. You could have never met them but still this message has to float above your head.

I suggest a few different possibilities:

1) Hostile all players in the current area.
2) Hostile all non-visible players in the current area.
I think these are the two weakest options. They are ripe for metagame because all you have to do is use them and then you'll see on the list who is suddenly hostile to you. I don't think they can be added in a useful capacity and would be just as bad as the Curse Song damage issue, so I left them here for posterity.

3) Bard Song only inspires characters who are visible to you.
I think this is the strongest option by far. It would entirely remove the need to use the hostile command to detect other players. The spam would almost completely vanish, and there are few situations in which someone the bard isn't singing for should receive their benefits. By the description of the ability found here, it's only meant to affect their allies. The party settings on the server are the reason they affect everyone, not just allies. They can currently control who they are singing for & providing benefits to by toggling hostile, just like anyone else can buff only the people they want to receive buffs by marking non-allies as hostile. In the 3.5e SRD, a bard can even choose to exclude himself from the benefits of his own bardic music, so I don't think there is evidence that bards cannot control who they inspire with their music, especially considering Inspire Competence (the skill-boosting component of bardic music) requires the bard to be able to see the ally whom they wish to inspire.

4) The hostile message no longer floats over your head.
This might interfere with the desire for "fair warning for PvP" as it's very in your face and hard to miss, but it's kind of annoying to see this message floating over your head when it has nothing to do with you and it sometimes goes on for a few minutes at a time.

5) Change the rules so that enemies you cannot see who suffer damage from you are considered to have "grunted in pain" etc.
This was mentioned a few times and I think it should to be posted here for posterity even if it would never be considered on account of it being so contentious.

6) Hide damage dealt to enemies you cannot perceive from the combat log
If this is possible, I think it should be done, but then we're back at square one with Curse Song detection rituals leading to hostile spam again, and I can't think of a solution.

[Day Old Bread]

I'm not sure the ruling changes to bard's Curse Song and the use of @server hostile are related to a desire to reduce the amount of @server hostiles being used, but rather to prevent people from rule breaking whether intentional or not.

That being said, I'm not sure how the coding works for the suggestions you made, but some of the ideas aren't bad.

[SardineTheAncestor]

From what we know, it is just to prevent metagaming, like you said.

But I've noticed the spam myself, and not only that, but plenty of conversation and complaining about the amount of messages floating above our heads that have nothing to do with our characters, and while they only linger for a few moments, I am hopeful that the amount of irrelevant messages can be reduced if we get at least a little bit closer to the "by the books" approach to how bardic music works.

[Hathor]

I personally think overall frequency is fine, the actual floaty isn't disruptive and is important for alerting people. I'd rather people not be afraid to hostile all when they're getting into combat, recently had an ally get suddenly attacked and I didn't even notice it at first because there was no floaty or hostile message as the attacker didn't know I was there.

I find the timing of hostile alls to be more weird and annoying...I see that some PCs toggle hostile on very briefly, basically wait out the 10 seconds then turn it back off. It's always the same few people and it happens a lot so it can't be an accident. I don't know what the reason for doing this is but, maybe longer cooldowns would be helpful.

[EO]

If the intended changes to trap mechanisms work as intended, we will limit the use of hostile all to MPCs, since there will no longer be a major need to hostile the entire server.

[Hathor]

I want to add--limiting songs to only visible PCs could solve some issues but it also has some drawbacks for dungeons and could potentially make bards significantly weaker in dungeons. IC, just because a PC is unseen doesn't mean you are unaware of their presence.

Mechanically speaking the best solution might be some sort of "target picker" where you can manually select who your Bard Song or potentially other songs are affecting, and have that be a mode that you can toggle on/off similar to subsonics. But that seems like a ton of work for a small problem.

[zDark Shadowz]

A bard PC setting where you toggle your song to 'chosen targets only' then use a player tool command to afflict people at will with a string/variable unique to you;

When bard song is used check if that setting is turned on, and if so, only apply bard song to those that have been afflicted with your hidden string/variable that are in range.

As for a local hostiling of players in the current area, I think it should only hostile VISIBLE players in the current area - if you hostile all those "non visible" you end up revealing ONLY those who are hiding in your immediate area from examining the player list and seeing who turned hostile. It really doesnt work.

Hiding damage dealt... is doable, as long as the audio for the damage dealt itself is removed too. You'd have to make the damage no longer belong to the curse song user though, might cause its own problems and then the stealther is still gambling they arent going to die from repeated ear bleeding exposure.

[SardineTheAncestor]

The frequent @server hostile usage is Bards attempting to detect stealthers and just a few other fringe cases that don't pop up as often. This is by far the most frequent usage. Limiting bard song to only visible non-hostiles around the bard would be entirely in line with the 3.5e SRD; perception comes into it as an intended mechanic, but awareness does not, for the bard must perceive the target of their bardic music. That it has changed in NWN is a deviation from PnP. I don't believe there are any unforeseen consequences for changing it to be in line with PnP.

I've long considered that bards don't need to be able to provide song effects to unseen allies anyway. If their unseen rogue friend is about to gank someone and they desperately need the bard song advantage, then that's a fringe case. I don't see how it would affect their utility in dungeons, either. This is a class that can cast its own See Invisibility if nobody else gave it to them for some reason. If they can't detect the rogue in their group from their own party while disabling traps or opening locks, they only need to come out of stealth mode for a moment to do so. This would also be a fringe case as I've noticed most rogues don't do this, as there's usually no benefit to doing so (most traps aren't placed in combat areas).

Groups generally stay tight and well within each others' view during combat. Splitting up rarely offers combat advantages and leads to people getting lost or left behind. If the party has a bard, staying near and within the view of the source of its bardic inspiration seems prudent.

I think this idea of manually selecting each recipient of bardsong is good too, but I think it would be nice independently of only providing benefits to visible characters. Being able to use it to provide benefits to hidden characters would certainly be a net plus.

If the intended changes to trap mechanisms work as intended, we will limit the use of hostile all to MPCs, since there will no longer be a major need to hostile the entire server.

I suppose this would essentially solve the issue entirely. I still find that the ability to hostile the entire server is useful in the case of antagonistic PCs who aren't monsters, though, and I'm curious if you'd allow players to continue to be trusted with this tool for when it could be useful to them, if the spam is a part of why it's going away, and if that spam could be eliminated by bard song changes.

[Hathor]

From the perspective of lower level bards, they now have to either be a higher level or lose casts of other spells in order to apply buffs to PCs who can hear them just fine and that they are aware of. Imagine there are PCs in the party who are staying invisible but the party passes by something with the ability to see those PCs, those PCs are losing out on AC, temporary HP, etc. It's less of an issue for high level bards who can do everything, and more punishes lower level bards. It's not the end of the world exactly but worth considering.

IC it makes little sense as they are allies who can hear the bard regardless of invis/stealth.

My understanding is that bards are not allowed to use curse song to detect stealthers anymore, if they are using server hostile to do it.

[SardineTheAncestor]

Yeah, curse song detection is against the rules now, since the possibility of the damage log being used to metagame. But the regular bard song, for the time being, is still okay.

Who is staying invisible for the entire dungeon run, though, even in a full party? The wizard, the healer, etc. who are not attacking? They won't need the bonuses. If, for some reason, they do need them very much, your average wizard at level 7 has, correct me if I'm wrong, 3 slots for 4th circle. There are better spells on that circle than Mass See Invisibility for direct combat, but if there is some reason the invisible party members need to be seen, then they should probably make the conscious choice of providing See Invis somehow. Or forego the use of invisibility while pulling a support role.

I'm not sure a situational nerf to wizards in a party with a bard is even a bad thing, considering they will maintain their ability to use bard song for detection even if @server hostile is removed.

I think it's totally understandable if a magical song effect cannot reach intended recipients if the singer can't see them. It is definitely magical one way or another, and sometimes magic means weird stuff that doesn't fit through logic gates. Like how subsonics are completely silent yet they can deal a very sudden burst of sonic damage. With the mechanic present (edit: not only in the 3.5e SRD linked above, but also in the 3e SRD), through deliberate inclusion by the designers of the tabletop game, it takes only a little imagination to explain it; that it does not exist in NWN is probably not so deliberate, and a lot of changes on PotM and other servers reflect the features that Bioware had forgotten and Beamdog haven't had the time to change.

[Phantasia]

This is a non-issue honestly, Hathor. At low levels you won't have enough songs to even use them before combat starts anyway, and everyone is visible before inspiring all melee combatants that can actually make use of the song. Second, if you're not inspiring as the combat starts while everyone is visible anyway, then you're just burning songs for no real reason. When the rogue pops out to bust a lock, then they can be inspired then.

Quite honestly I find myself pressed to find a situation where someone isn't visible within your party to benefit from a bard, or at least reveals themselves to the bard, before slipping back into the shadows. Bards get See Invisibility, so any non-stealth characters they can see easily. And if someone at low levels is perma-invis then what use do they have for the song anyway (unless that person is somehow your lock picker, then just stand next to them I guess)?