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Author Topic: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e  (Read 1743 times)

vvolatile

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Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« on: May 21, 2020, 05:58:03 PM »
I'm told POTM strives to cleave close to source material. However, some facts:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bearsEndurance.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/catsGrace.htm

These spells are all +4 flat, not 1d4+1. Getting a flat bonus would mean less annoyance re-casting or consuming multiple potions to get a good bonus worth having. A lot of builds are semi-dependent on getting that odd ability point for the next modifier up, though, and making these +4 instead of the potential +5 would break that possibility.

So... what about a flat +5, empowerable to flat +7, remove the maximize check from the script?

vvolatile

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2020, 06:01:57 PM »
I should add: Pointing out how this differs from the source material is just my support for why it "should" be done. The reason it would be good, though, is for emphasis on fun and removal of needless annoyance.

HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 06:47:23 PM »
I'm told POTM strives to cleave close to source material. However, some facts:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bearsEndurance.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/catsGrace.htm

These spells are all +4 flat, not 1d4+1. Getting a flat bonus would mean less annoyance re-casting or consuming multiple potions to get a good bonus worth having. A lot of builds are semi-dependent on getting that odd ability point for the next modifier up, though, and making these +4 instead of the potential +5 would break that possibility.

So... what about a flat +5, empowerable to flat +7, remove the maximize check from the script?

I don't love this idea to be honest. Flat +4 for the base spells to save time and reduce annoyance sounds okay in theory, although I actually enjoy some of the role-play that comes from a bad or great ability score buff roll. However, I think it gets more complicated when we look at that in consideration of Empowered & Maximized. A maximized +5 when +4 is guaranteed, makes maximized far less useful in a situation that otherwise contributes a decent bit to the usefulness of the Maximized feat in general. In consideration of Empowered, we see the adverse effect. Empowered to +7 seems way too powerful. Granting an automatic +7 on any/every ability score to any cleric, druid, mage, etc. at any point in time... In my experience, spell casters don't need anything to help make them more powerful on this server (coming from someone who plays predominantly spell casters).

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 06:54:29 PM »
I don't believe arguments based on editions are well received, on this server. Our rules are homebrew, usually but not always based on 3e or 3.5. If it's balanced and has popular support and is from either or neither of those sources, it might be implemented.

That said, I'm only weighing in to point out that this would make life easier for casters who don't have the Maximize feat, and might be the deciding factor in whether they take that feat. I don't have strong feelings either way, incidentally, it's just something to keep in mind.

vvolatile

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 06:58:11 PM »
Replying to both:

I mean, when you cite a wish for fun, you're told that it needs to be supported by source material. Now when I cite source material... ?????

There are more things for empowered/maximized/extended to be used on than ability buffs, though. Things that might let buffslave mages do more damage with their extra spell slots (therefore being better rounded), or even just buff better.

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 07:16:04 PM »
You're right, you need to have PnP basis and also popular support, or overwhelming support by the developers, to have a high chance at implementation. Not that this is or should be a democratic thing; what the playerbase wants just tends to be taken into consideration. I guess you do have to be a veteran to get a feel for it. I don't fully have that "feel" yet.

Another thing you'll probably hear imminently is that increasing the breadth of what casters can do is bad, as they're already powerful. It's not uncommon for the effects of spells to be "toned down" to keep caster classes in check-- it is, for example, entirely possible in 3.5 to use Time Stop as a means to place many AoE spells instantly around a single target, in an ambush. Likewise, Bigby's Hand spells don't allow saving throws, True Seeing is proof against mundane hiding, Evard's Black Tentacles can hit creatures of any size, et cetera.

So, things like the feat cost will be scrutinized.

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 07:19:38 PM »
The tone of the original post in this topic and your subsequent replies, Volatile, is unnecessarily hostile and confrontational. It has already put another suggestion thread in danger of being closed; please consider carefully how you can contribute in a more positive and constructive fashion.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

Zyemeth

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 07:37:16 PM »
I'd support the PnP flat+4 and empowered+6. Nothing worse than wasting a 4TH level spell slot for a whopping +1modifier. Oh joy. That could have been stoneskin or imp invis or GMA instead.

Marcus Weyland

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 07:43:12 PM »
If it were empowerable only to +6, my "I don't really care" would become a "I actually don't like that very much at all".

That extra +1 matters in a lot of contexts. Some checks would become impossible for some characters, and odd-numbered CHA/INT/WIS caster characters would see their spells' theoretical maximum DCs lowered by 1.

Hathor

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 07:47:22 PM »
+1 for this suggestion.

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 07:52:07 PM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.
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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 08:19:40 PM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.

+1, there's nothing but good in this suggestion.

HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 08:53:50 PM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.

I see merit in this suggestion, but I am hesitant because it seems as though you are highly focused on the mage perspective. Yes, Mages are likely warding others in their party with animal buffs (although they are probably casting at least a couple on themselves as well), but that certainly does not hold true for the soloing cleric, Druid, bard, Paladin, etc.

Revenant

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2020, 09:07:10 PM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.

I see merit in this suggestion, but I am hesitant because it seems as though you are highly focused on the mage perspective. Yes, Mages are likely warding others in their party with animal buffs (although they are probably casting at least a couple on themselves as well), but that certainly does not hold true for the soloing cleric, Druid, bard, Paladin, etc.

Fair enough - though I would very much argue that it holds true for those other classes (and more true, in the case of Bard or Paladin who would be hard-pressed to sacrifice another slot to guarantee an extra 1 AB, AC, or damage). Druids and Clerics are strongly solo-capable, and the difference of a guaranteed AB or AC will not expand this capability.

For what it's worth, the vast majority of my characters have been mundane (or mundane adjacent, in the case of my paladin).
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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2020, 10:56:07 PM »
Technically the 1d4 is from 3E, which is what NwN is based on.

Also, if it was changed to a flat 4, as seems to be the suggestion, Maximize Spell would become redundant for those buffs and Empower Spell would no longer affect them since Empower Spell only affects variable, numeric effects.

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 11:09:58 PM »
It would be a nice QoL change, but as EO says it would remove some thoughtful preparation around metamagic which is just unnecessary.
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Kaninchen

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2020, 09:07:04 AM »
Can also not fish for the best buff, and instead RP that you messed the spell up some? "OH man, i didn't enunciate that word right, and it threw the spell off. This is what happens when you rush me! So impatient to slay evils. That will teach ya a lesson!" 

"Damn it all! A finger cramp, right in the middle of a difficult somatic part of the spell! Clearly I need to take a break from adventuring, and hire a masseuse to work all of these kinks out!"

Some things like that, until you get to a high enough level for maximized, and empowered spells?

"Don't worry people, I've not done these motions thousands upon thousands of times, they have become more like breathing, and no cramps, or drunken slurring, will effect them. I have transcended!"

Should you have to? Maybe not, but perspective can change a lot of relative negatives if the effort is put forth. 

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2020, 09:13:54 AM »
It's worth remembering that the 3.5e spells also last minutes, not an hour+
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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2020, 11:00:27 AM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.

This seems like a pretty good idea, really.

+1
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tylernwn

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2020, 11:12:07 AM »
-1

Getting +4 is certainly more convenient, but working hard for that +5 feels like it adds value to the game. Furthermore, I like my +1 to necromancy DCs. So I would prefer that this stay the same.

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2020, 11:15:02 AM »
Can also not fish for the best buff, and instead RP that you messed the spell up some? "OH man, i didn't enunciate that word right, and it threw the spell off. This is what happens when you rush me! So impatient to slay evils. That will teach ya a lesson!" 

"Damn it all! A finger cramp, right in the middle of a difficult somatic part of the spell! Clearly I need to take a break from adventuring, and hire a masseuse to work all of these kinks out!"

Some things like that, until you get to a high enough level for maximized, and empowered spells?

"Don't worry people, I've not done these motions thousands upon thousands of times, they have become more like breathing, and no cramps, or drunken slurring, will effect them. I have transcended!"

Should you have to? Maybe not, but perspective can change a lot of relative negatives if the effort is put forth.

This, always this! +1

Soulbourne

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2020, 11:26:49 AM »
Even in pnp I have always preferred the 3.0e version of these spells. I love the RP implications of it. My wizard would only maximize ability buffs for close allies she valued highly as people rather than simply numbers for the best fighter. Many builds are also built around receiving that odd numbered bonus. Making the base spell +4 would mean empowered and maximized are both useless as they only work on variable numeric effects. I prefer having the versatility.

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2020, 02:05:22 PM »
I don't see the fun in getting a flat +4, and I don't understand why people seem to be afraid of dice rolls, this is D&D, you play with with a dice, that's where the fun comes from. Neither do I see the fun in drinking 20 potions to get the best roll, if I saw your character doing that, I would just walk away, if I was a Dungeon Master...you would get a warning.

Zyemeth

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2020, 03:32:39 PM »
You could allow zoo buffs to "stack" to a maximum - 5 for normal, 7 empowered. Meaning essentially that if you rolled a 2 on your first cast, you could cast again, "adding" to the previous cast up to a cap. Expenditure of more resources allows you to control inconsistency - a reasonable trade-off. Maximized zoo buffs would still be valid, as they allow you to guarantee that you will only need one casting.

As to arguments of this making casters stronger, consider that the most common targets of zoo buffs are typically going to be a wizard's party members, and that this sort of thing would also apply to mundanes using Spells in a Bottle. It's quality of life that touches everyone.

This here gets my +1. This is genius and well balanced. Worst case is 3 casts to get max roll if you really need it but even two casts to get a +2mod? Lightyears better than how it is. I've gone entire days casting nothing but minimum before. They should pay this man the big bucks for his brain.

Alan Hunter

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Re: Ability Buffs are Flat, Not Rolled, in PNP 3.5e
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2020, 04:14:43 PM »
The tone of the original post in this topic and your subsequent replies, Volatile, is unnecessarily hostile and confrontational. It has already put another suggestion thread in danger of being closed; please consider carefully how you can contribute in a more positive and constructive fashion.

I dont see where this player was hostile or the least confrontational in this topic. Guarded maybe do to reasons possibly. I would consider that the DM take into consideration his content and try to contribute to the original post in a constructive fasion.

+1 To this post. I believe this is a good suggestion and is applicable if the Staff considers it. Though there may be room for more imorovement. Maybe an empower offers a + d3 and a Max offers +6? It would definately offer an ease of life in game I believe.
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