Author Topic: Port sorcerers and bards  (Read 1979 times)

firelord111

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2020, 11:49:46 AM »
Thanks for the response but my main question that i started the thread over was how bards and sorcerers are simmilar in both being innate casters but sorcerers are hated but bards are not . for example Bard is entertainer but if a sorcerer would be an entertainer too would port like him ?

Maelithii

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2020, 11:55:55 AM »
I think the point is that their magic is inherently different.

Sorcerers are portrayed as a wild maelstrom of power in their heights - whereas bards are magically enchanted creatures possessing spellsong.

The bottom line is that the OCR fills in for individual actions. And a lot of classes lead to restricted play - same with races. I do personally wish the NPCs in port were less spammy as it disrupts other people's role play significantly, but there we have it.

There is a reputation system build in. I do not know if its possible to earn negative reputation through DM events etc to earn an individual PC some leeway before hitting rating 16 and triggering a lot of angry NPCs. Better to ask EO.

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2020, 11:59:07 AM »
Thanks for the response but my main question that i started the thread over was how bards and sorcerers are simmilar in both being innate casters but sorcerers are hated but bards are not . for example Bard is entertainer but if a sorcerer would be an entertainer too would port like him ?

Yeah, my quotes above illustrate the differences. First of all, as I mentioned, bard spellcasting is different, they cast by singing, reciting and or playing music, so that's a clear difference with the sorcerer. Also, I quoted the sorcerer fluff in Complete Arcane, here's the bard one, with emphasis on the first sentence/paragraph, but also somewhat the second:

Spoiler: show
Quote from: Complete Arcane
Unless it's by her own intent, a bard is never mistaken for another type of arcane spellcaster, and although the common folk might fear the sudden appearance of an unknown mage, the arrival of a new bard in town is often a cause for celebration. A bard's skills promise new songs, new stories, and new music so powerful and magical that listeners can forget for a short time the cares and troubles of their lives. When a bard of great skill sings her songs in the common room of the village inn, her listeners enjoy for a short time entertainment fit for a king - an hour or two of dreams and splendor in which even the lowest laborer can indulge.

Of course, some bards also have reputations as thieves and liars, being all too quick to flee town leaving behind a string of false promises and broken hearts. Though the motives of such characters will always be questioned, people know that even the most blackhearted bard lacks the power to unleash magical plagues or other arcane devastations. Though people often fear magical power, they know that the bard's brand of magic carries significantly fewer risks to them than those of other arcanists.

Bards move easily in circles of nobility and power, and even a bard of modest skill can show up at the door of the king’s hall and expect to trade a few songs for a seat at the banquet table and a bed for the night. In some cultures, nobles retain bards as advisors, entertainers, spymasters, and tutors to their children; these house bards, or hallsingers, often become permanent members of a noble’s household. In exchange for room, board, and a monthly retainer, a house bard serves as a trusted lieutenant, working assiduously to advance the noble’s interests and guard the family to whom she has given her loyalty. Just as a noble wins renown for the quality of the bard in his household, bards win renown for the elevation of their patrons, and to be the court bard of a high king is a great honor indeed.

Bards with noble patrons can still spend much of their time adventuring, but they are expected to devote at least some of their efforts to advancing their patron’s causes and to report back at regular intervals what they have heard and observed during their travels. In general, a bard with a patron must spend at least one week per month at the noble’s residence, but after every few years of service, a bard is expected to forego travel for a time, spending several consecutive months in attendance at her lord’s court.

Phantasia

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2020, 12:14:54 PM »
Okay but none of this explains how Sorcerer magic is different from Wizard magic to the eyes of commoners/noble NPCs. Only that the Sorcerer is so "forceful" that it leaves an impactful memory of them, and somehow cultivates superstition in people's minds where a Bard with similar force of will does not just because he can bard song? What if my Wizard has high charisma before and after being buffed? Should they be treated with suspicion because they leave an impactful memory?

I know this is a wild thought, but maybe a Sorcerer is fully aware of societal expectations and superstitions, so maybe with that incredible force of will, they use it to downplay their abilities and keep under the radar using disguises, and largely staying away from populated areas, as well as avoiding using their powers too much in front of people who can indeed tell the difference?

Are we saying all noblemen and commoners are secretly Bards with maxed out spellcraft? This should be handled on a case-by-case and left to the trust of players.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 12:17:27 PM by Phantasia »
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ZSRunner

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2020, 12:29:49 PM »
I think what EO is suggesting is that you're all doing it wrong!

Not really.  But I think what it boils down to is the character flavor.  If a sorcerer is casting in Port, are they emoting that they are casting like a wizard who would do so with precision and practice, or are they winging it and just tapping into their natural abilities.

Could a sorcerer cast like a wizard, yes.  Do they always, I don't think so.  Personally, and I might be wrong in how I interpret this, but I've always assumed there were differences in the way casters cast spells.  Praying clerics and paladins, singing bards, repetition of memorized actions and speech of wizards, freewheeling sorcerers who just do it naturally.  Those differences might be profound in some cases, and subtle in others, but I've always believed each class tapped into their magic in a distinctly different way.

In NwN, however, it all looks the same so we have difficulty distinguishing.  Just my 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2020, 12:34:19 PM »
It seems to me that the gist of what people want here is to be able to have their sorceror pretend to be a wizard when they're casting. Without DM oversight, people want to be allowed to use influence or perform or some other skill to try and get away with it and not be outed immediately even if it's going to happen later. The DC could be affected by the circle of the spell (higher = more difficult). Maybe some tie in with disguises "shielding" you temporarily from OCR gains, since they don't know it's you unless they break the disguise, but that might be getting complicated for what is essentially an addition to the OCR system to allow sorcerors to roll just like monstrous races and classes.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2020, 12:35:05 PM »
I know this is a wild thought, but maybe a Sorcerer is fully aware of societal expectations and superstitions, so maybe with that incredible force of will, they use it to downplay their abilities and keep under the radar using disguises, and largely staying away from populated areas, as well as avoiding using their powers too much in front of people who can indeed tell the difference?

Not only are force of will (inward, one's self) and force of personality (outward, others) two different things, but EO has explicitly stated a couple of times now...no.

We can't choose to turn off our Cha modifier, for example.

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Phantasia

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2020, 12:40:45 PM »
Okay.
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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2020, 12:55:52 PM »
It would be cool if we could get something for higher-Charisma wizards, then. If arcane casting + having a strong force of personality is what causes sorcerers to be subject to ostracizing, then that should also apply to bards and to wizards with sufficient force of personality.

Maybe tie it to spell circle - a 14 Charisma wizard casting a 4th or lower circle spell would be indistinguishable from a 14 Charisma sorcerer, for example.
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2020, 12:57:05 PM »
Well, I was thinking that you could have the DC start out at 20, raise by 2 for every character level you have, and raise by 1 per circle of the spell you're casting. There could be other factors too. So a level 20 sorceror casting a 9th circle spell would need to beat a DC of 49. In other words he would probably need to invest in Influence, buff his charisma, use glibness, and wear some influence gear if he really needs to cast in public. Then if you want it even more difficult, that's where the other factors come in. Like every spell you cast in a row (1 minute cooldown?) adding +3 to the DC as you battle to tame that "maelstrom of power."

I feel like this sort of freedom, allowing players to spend points in an otherwise not very useful stat, but gain some utility for it in the rare case he needs it, can only help with character individuality.

As sorcerors must remain mindful about casting but now have a mechanic to avoid being outed immediately, they might mention their differences to traditional, inoffensive wizards more. Since it's a rare class as is, we can't expect them to have good examples of PHB-abiding players out of the gates, because there is no mention of the PHB only lore unless you go digging, and not everyone bothers doing so. But if confronted with this mechanic, and the sheer difficulty of it, they may inquire with others and read up as to why it exists, rather than just surrendering to its uninteractive nature as it is now, mentioning it once as an off-note, "I'm a sorceror I can't do magic in Port" but consciously investing skills & money into gear so that they can do that -- whenever people model their play around something they usually take it quite seriously and mindfully. Wishful thinking?

edit: fixed an obvious error
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 01:17:40 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2020, 04:27:00 PM »
I am pretty sure sorcerer and wizard spells are cast the same way with the same rules effect in 3.5e, and there are no defined differences. The difference is only in preparation - the same components are required (verbal, somantic, material) and there is no indication at all that the verbal of a sorcerer is different to that of a wizard. There's no indication its -not- either, other than its not specifically mentioned. I imagine it might be setting specific. Its not surprising given the class is basically born entirely from D&D and 3.0/3.5 mechanics, not from roleplay.

For the current OCR system to make absolute sense for individual PCs, it would require:

- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be different.
- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be sufficiently homogeneous that even the uneducated can tell them apart.

Its definitely a round peg in a square hole at the moment (which could be made square by a house rule on the nature of sorcerer's magic) but I can see how it serves the purpose set. Its one of those situations where Dev solutions work on a  macro level but not on a micro, but one must take a wider perspective given its the only solution available.

Maelithii

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2020, 05:43:58 PM »
I will say that the NPCs outside Vallaki do roll Influence checks before being alarmed by OCR.

This is not the case in Port I believe? Can anyone verify?

An alternative thread could be started to discuss the merits of that - any ideas to improve the system should really be in it's own thread.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2020, 05:47:11 PM »
For the current OCR system to make absolute sense for individual PCs, it would require:

- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be different.
- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be sufficiently homogeneous that even the uneducated can tell them apart.


heterogeneous :)

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2020, 06:05:23 PM »
I will say that the NPCs outside Vallaki do roll Influence checks before being alarmed by OCR.

This is not the case in Port I believe? Can anyone verify?

An alternative thread could be started to discuss the merits of that - any ideas to improve the system should really be in it's own thread.

They do, but casting a spell is different. It gives OCR, there's no way to prevent that from happening with an influence check.
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Kleomenes

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2020, 06:25:46 PM »
For the current OCR system to make absolute sense for individual PCs, it would require:

- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be different.
- Sorcerer and wizard casting to be sufficiently homogeneous that even the uneducated can tell them apart.


heterogeneous :)

I didn't explain well - I meant homogeneous internally, but distinct from each other. So every sorcerer  casting the same, every wizard casting the same, but both being clearly different.

If every wizard cast differently and every sorcerer cast differently it would stretch credibility for uneducated persons to be able to identify the differences clearly between the two "approaches" as the overall picture would be so complicated.

Either way, its a tangent at this point!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 06:27:40 PM by Kleomenes »

Emomina

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Re: Port sorcerers and bards
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2020, 07:24:42 AM »
Subtle things always prove really difficult for people to incorporate into their roleplay. Its really just being willing to take an obtuse system like OCR and translate it to something that shapes your characters behavior and go with the flow.

Here is my analogy as a guide.
Lets say you have owned dogs all your life, and ever since you were young your dogs have always slept on the bed with you. Its been going on so long you take it for granted and don't think about it on a daily basis....  and then one day at work you and your coworkers are sharing stories about your pets and you share a funny story about something your dog did in bed.... and as a response you just get a lot of "Ew gross, your dog sleeps with you??" etc.  This experience has now made you self aware that many people think that practice is gross and that its not as common as you may have once believed. So now in future situations you may be loathe to share that detail in such a setting.

A sorcerer, especially one from other settings perhaps, may have taken it for granted that people would be be in awe or wonder that they can just do what they can do. But all it takes is for one suspicious Dementlieuse inquiry that fuels a rumor-mill about how exactly you do what you do and then suddenly one of your primary strengths (being able to manipulate or charm people) is negated. If the rumors grow, or have other instances that further place suspicions on you (OCR increases) then not only does your charm no longer get you by but people are downright hostile. Whether they do this because you overused your magic, or whether its because no one has ever seen you even read a book, or whether its just that you are the furthest thing from a studious person in dress and mannerism. Such details are up to you, but really are not even really needed to be stated or played out in-game explicitly. Its the modified behavior of more-caution and less cocksure confidence that is the real reward for the experience of playing a sorcerer in Dementlieu. Thats my take on it anyway. This mindset works for a ton of other OCR laden character ideas. Just incorporate it into your characters reaction to his world and roleplay onward.
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