Port sorcerers and bards

[firelord111]

From what I have gathered in port sorcerers are not liked because the source of their power is unknown and feared which is understandable but from what I know bards also get their powers in similar way as sorcerers is there a reason behind how sorcerers and bards are treated differently?

[Revenant]

I've always found it odd that NPCs can determine off the street the difference between Sorcerous and Wizardly magic, since the incantations and materials are generally the same. I always took the source material to mean that a magician found out (through skulking, rumor, etc) to not be using traditional wizardly studies would be distrusted.

[Asous]

I've always found it odd that NPCs can determine off the street the difference between Sorcerous and Wizardly magic, since the incantations and materials are generally the same. I always took the source material to mean that a magician found out (through skulking, rumor, etc) to not be using traditional wizardly studies would be distrusted.

I'm pretty sure the NPCs scream about casting magic without a book or scroll, which Wizards need..?

[Revenant]

I've always found it odd that NPCs can determine off the street the difference between Sorcerous and Wizardly magic, since the incantations and materials are generally the same. I always took the source material to mean that a magician found out (through skulking, rumor, etc) to not be using traditional wizardly studies would be distrusted.

I'm pretty sure the NPCs scream about casting magic without a book or scroll, which Wizards need..?

Wizards in DnD prepare spells by memorization from their book, but the casting is comprised of somatic, verbal, and sometimes material components - which should not differ appreciably between a wizard and a sorcerer, as far as I understand. One is not required to hold a book or scroll in hand.

[zDark Shadowz]

Probably best for a DM to chime in on acceptable port behaviour for NPCs, but

In my opinion [cue spam trail of arguments after this post I wont reply to]

Dementlieuse have an academy where they do research magic, and my opinion was that Dementlieuse considered it at best parlour tricks which is why you have shops selling primarily illusion magic scrolls in the same area as their guard barracks lair in, with conjuration and transmutation sold in the backwater alleys.

They know of magic and they don't look unfavourably on it, bards primarily use enchantment/illusion type magic which fits the theme of what they perceive magic to be and if a sorcerer follows using those spells at most in public (you have a magic entertainer in the publique section as it is thats been theŕe for a while) there's no particular reason to be reviled aside from rumours from Barovia on the origins of caliban etc.

They aren't nearly as superstitious and there's gendarme that use magic too so [shrug] magic is acceptable if it's not causing a public disturbance, regardless of origin.

But thats my just my opinion. PC Dementlieuse are free to have their own opinions and RP on magic but the general populace have their own too that doesnt always coincide.

[SardineTheAncestor]

I vaguely remember something about books and scrolls being shouted about when I witnessed this happening once. The thing is, a spellbook is indeed memorised like Revenant says. That means the wizard doesn't necessarily need to have the book in his hand to cast the spell.

Clerics and Paladins don't need books or scrolls either, they just pray or meditate for their spells. Some of those spells also require a holy symbol but I think we're pretty open with how we flavour it here since the SRD is very simplistic and reduces the game to its simulation. Druids are likely much the same but depending on setting might simply use some other kind of talisman or fetish alongside the material components that are generally just assumed to be accounted for in NWN. Yet the only class that gets screamed at is Sorcerors, why is that?

Maybe a developer can comment about this decision. There must be an enforced difference between Bards and Sorcerers that makes it so even commoner NPCs know the difference. Bards have this whole thing going on for them, like Shadowz comments, where they're performers; that is, they can pass it off as them being stage magicians and the whimsy surrounding them dispels any (outward) fear and loathing.

[Iridni Ren]

Magic. Can wizards publically say, I am a wizard?

Wizards are tolerated but looked down with disdain and a lack of respect. Magic is considered frivolous in Dementlieu and most Dementlieu mages are either enchanters or illusionists and specialize in stage magic and the likes. It's not taken seriously. Wizards are generally enchanters or illusionists - as these schools are the most appropriate for performance magic - but are not well respected.

Sorcerers on the other hand are looked with suspicion. While arcane magic learnt from a book is accepted, sorcerous powers arising in the untrained is considered abnormal, and such people are often forced into seclusion.

[Revenant]

Magic. Can wizards publically say, I am a wizard?

Wizards are tolerated but looked down with disdain and a lack of respect. Magic is considered frivolous in Dementlieu and most Dementlieu mages are either enchanters or illusionists and specialize in stage magic and the likes. It's not taken seriously. Wizards are generally enchanters or illusionists - as these schools are the most appropriate for performance magic - but are not well respected.

Sorcerers on the other hand are looked with suspicion. While arcane magic learnt from a book is accepted, sorcerous powers arising in the untrained is considered abnormal, and such people are often forced into seclusion.

Yes, that explains the higher societal reasoning for why an outed sorcerer would be ostracized - not why a street noble or waitstaff could tell the difference between a wizard's illusion and a sorcerer's.

[Iridni Ren]

From reading that it seems that *any* display of arcane magic for purposes other than, say, entertainment would be viewed with suspicion. (And even for entertainment as something a little gauche.)

If the arcanist was discovered to achieve this magic through innate means, then the arcanist would be viewed with even more suspicion and perhaps as a little freakish ("abnormal").

[FinalHeaven]

From reading that it seems that *any* display of arcane magic for purposes other than, say, entertainment would be viewed with suspicion. (And even for entertainment as something a little gauche.)

If the arcanist was discovered to achieve this magic through innate means, then the arcanist would be viewed with even more suspicion and perhaps as a little freakish ("abnormal").

The point of contention however is that presently, wizards can cast their spells in front of NPCs in Port-a-Lucine without any sort of drawback but Sorcerers cannot.  People seem to be curious why that is, since the (general/common) NPCs shouldn't really be able to tell the difference.

[Iridni Ren]

From reading that it seems that *any* display of arcane magic for purposes other than, say, entertainment would be viewed with suspicion. (And even for entertainment as something a little gauche.)

If the arcanist was discovered to achieve this magic through innate means, then the arcanist would be viewed with even more suspicion and perhaps as a little freakish ("abnormal").

The point of contention however is that presently, wizards can cast their spells in front of NPCs in Port-a-Lucine without any sort of drawback but Sorcerers cannot.  People seem to be curious why that is, since the (general/common) NPCs shouldn't really be able to tell the difference.

*nod* Understood (although the OP is about bards versus sorcs).

Regardless, from EO's post I would say it should have more to do with the use of the magic. The nature of the caster should come into play only if "outed."

[firelord111]

From the response i got the way sorcerers cast is different from way wizards cast which is why i am asking about bards rather than wizards because both bards and sorcerers are innates

[Emomina]

Sorcerers, if known to be spell adept from innate means, are not hunted/killed/banned by Dementlieuse people. I know its a subtle distinction but its also important. Its not so far fetched that a sorcerer will stand out to a populace that associates magic with antisocial genius people. Mostly because a sorcerer will not seem genius and definitely will not seem antisocial.

The source material makes this distinction for a couple of reasons that may not seem obvious. Sorcerers are usually much more charismatic people (easy to guess eh) and they tend toward flamboyant, flashy, ostentatious and sometimes even obnoxious displays of magical prowess. The persona and personality of the two classes are supposed to come across as very distinct and different. To a player its just a difference between INT-based or CHA-based and prepared or spontaneous spellcasting. But in roleplaying the classes I think many let the lines blur a bit and lose this distinctness. The two classes are more subtly different to behold face to face. Sorcerers are much less book-wormish, much more socially adept and likeable, quippy, charming even.  A wizard might dress in drab robes, mutter under his breath, believe everyone around him is an idiot. A sorcerer on the other hand is at home among the people. He can work a crowd, charm the opposite sex, make a tavern room full of revelers laugh.

All I am pointing out is that both of the following things are true:
   - Its not a case that the common denizen of Dementlieu needs to have intimate knowledge of magic to find a sorcerer odd (as compared to their own expectations of wizards)
   - Its also not the case that once "outed" that a sorcerer is forfeit of freedom in Dementlieu. It just means that their usual ability to charm and be likeable is now trumped by suspicion. An already motivated group or person might then become hostile, but a muttered prayer to Ezra and hastily drawn curtains as you walk by would be the more common response. This can help the roleplay of the sorcerer if you lean into it, because nearly all sorcerers cannot actually point to the source of their powers their self. Its a mystery to them too, if really leaned into it can also be a source of torment and horror.

All of this should be completely applicable to bards too.
..And all three classes share real risk if they use necromancy openly.

[Iridni Ren]

   - Its also not the case that once "outed" that a sorcerer is forfeit of freedom in Dementlieu.

Per EO:

While arcane magic learnt from a book is accepted, sorcerous powers arising in the untrained is considered abnormal, and such people are often forced into seclusion.

I will leave it to the two of you to debate the distinction between "forfeit of freedom" and "forced into seclusion"

[FinalHeaven]

From reading that it seems that *any* display of arcane magic for purposes other than, say, entertainment would be viewed with suspicion. (And even for entertainment as something a little gauche.)

If the arcanist was discovered to achieve this magic through innate means, then the arcanist would be viewed with even more suspicion and perhaps as a little freakish ("abnormal").

The point of contention however is that presently, wizards can cast their spells in front of NPCs in Port-a-Lucine without any sort of drawback but Sorcerers cannot.  People seem to be curious why that is, since the (general/common) NPCs shouldn't really be able to tell the difference.

*nod* Understood (although the OP is about bards versus sorcs).

Regardless, from EO's post I would say it should have more to do with the use of the magic. The nature of the caster should come into play only if "outed."

Yes, Bards are in the same place as wizards currently which I think is what adds to the confusion.  And I agree, the nature of the caster should have the most affect after the character is outed.  If I had to make a wild guess I'd assume that as far as the OCR system is concerned (at least in Port-a-Lucine) it has nothing to do with spells being cast, the trigger is actually based on character class.

Personally I'd rather see the common rabble react to spellcasting overall, based on how the lore seems to paint things.

[Phantasia]

Honestly, if we're just going to have such a blunt OCR system there should be ways for smart players to circumvent these suspicions with the use of Influence or Perform. While run of the mill Dementlieuse nobles and even "merchant class" individuals are some of the most educated in the Core, they still shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Sorcerer or Bard that can "fib" it, or pass their trade off as "street magic" in difficult moments.

This change literally destroyed Sorcerous street performers in one swoop. Whether it is carrying a book in your inventory (some kind of fake Wizard's book), or a book in hand, there should be a prompt for Perform/Influence, if these NPCs are going to be so omniscient.

They should at least perceive a book and an attempt to mask the fact that these spells are not being conjured through superstitious power, but deliberate study and method. Something that Sorcerers can easily replicate--they're not just fools that don't know how their own magic of choice works.

Commoners/poorfolk should have no idea what is and what isn't either, unless I missed somewhere that even Dementlieuse commoners are this educated.

On the matter of fake books and methods, it's not exempt from PCs investigating an individual, which is a RP generator if someone's suspicious of your use of magic. Instead of having it tied to a system you can't do anything about.

Spoiler: show

don't mind the tactical relocation

[Phantomswake]

Typical port flavor to distinguish between  what is considered civilized and uncivilized. Something Port if you notice constantly portrays.  Separating what is accepted and what is taboo. Generally speaking, and this being  one among them, it is a bit Hypocritical.

However logically speaking, its like many things in this game you have to suspend disbelief to get there. I think it a good question that the OP brings up about how they can tell the difference, perhaps maybe the ritual of the magic is what is offensive or scary. I mean if you drew a pentagram on the ground and poured blood into a skull while your entire body was tattooed like Darth Maul, wouldn't that raise a red flag? Typically the word Sorcery is associated with black magic bringing with it a more sinister connotation.

[ObsidianOrb]

The reason they put it in was because they made a compromise, there was no way for them to actually simulate the NPC's knowing Sorcerer & Wizards apart, so they just used a Draconian system for the sake of doing something. Personally, I think it should be taken out, it doesn't serve any particular purpose, other than to prevent Sorcerers casting any spells within range of an NPC in a meta sort of way.

If it where possible, I think changing it so ANY Arcane spell Level 3 or Higher should create a negative reaction, one can assume the spell would be more complex and alarming than the first two levels of spells, that way Sorcerers,Wizards, and Bards have a level playing field, but they can't cast powerful spells. It is another compromise, but I feel it's a better one.

[Marcus Weyland]

If it where possible, I think changing it so ANY Arcane spell Level 3 or Higher should create a negative reaction, one can assume the spell would be more complex and alarming than the first two levels of spells

There are a handful of spells that Port NPCs will react negatively toward, regardless of character class. Besides the obvious necromancy, various other "dangerous" looking spells trigger an OCR bump.

[Rainor]

My character, an experienced adventurer that constantly interacts with other magic users, has trouble telling what kind of magic user a person is. I only figured out one character was a sorcerer (Originally I thought they were a cleric, just met them) because they cast bull's strength and a port commoner started freaking out.

It takes quite a bit of watching a person, or sometimes having to straight up ask them, to find out if they're a wizard or sorcerer. A single Bull's strength only tells me that they can atleast cast circle 2 magic.

[EO]

It's an imperfect system but it achieves the intended purpose, which is to make it clear sorcerers are outcasts in Dementlieu, unlike wizards who are seen either as inoffensive or absorbed in their studies. In a PnP campaign obviously the DM would be there to react with NPCs but on a PW with hundreds of players, the OCR system essentially replaces that need for constant DM oversight.

Also, a misunderstanding I see here is thinking wizards = sorcerers. They are drastically different and sorcerers have a sort of magnetism, a force of personality that draws attention, often negative. They stand out. Here's a detailed description from Complete Arcane (3E core supplement) that better explains the DnD stance on them:

Like bards, sorcerers tend to attract attention, but (unlike bards) rarely of the positive kind. Where a wizard might hobble into town and seem little more than a weatherbeaten traveler, revealing his true nature only at his own discretion, a sorcerer tends not to remain anonymous for long, because his personal intensity and charisma draw the eye and linger in the memory. An indefinable but tangible difference often separates the sorcerer from the rest of the world - and when difference is sown, suspicion often grows.

Where a high noble might look to her court wizard for advice and scholarly insight into the doings of her rivals, sorcerers generally have little in the way of a wizard's formal education and training. Though most sorcerers rarely feel the need to find themselves a patron or to place themselves at a lord's disposal, those who do often find themselves regarded as more of an arcane weapon than a fount of knowledge, less suited to roles as counselor and tutor than as an elite bodyguard or highly valued special agent.

In the end, whether they are evil or good, most sorcerers simply choose to exist outside the normal circles of human society. Like elemental forces of nature, the most powerful sorcerers will never be directed, either by the concerns of the common folk or the commands of a king.

[LivingWasteland]

That doesn't really answer the question of 'how' it serves it purpose, though. ti primary question being asked here is how some random streetwalking noble is going to discern between a what kind of magic is being cast. Using Bulls Strength as an example because it was mentioned above:

A cleric is not required to hold their holy symbol to cast a spell. They can cast Bulls Strength.

Paladin: See above. Can cast Bulls.

Druid: Same dealio.

Wizard: Also able to cast the very same spell as those divine casters above

Bard: Can also cast those spells, innately at that, much like the sorcerer.

Sorcerer: Can *also* cast the same spell with the same verbal and somatic components as every single class listed above.

How would generic noble be able to tell the difference between any of these classes and their methods of casting when the verbal and somatic components are the same globally? Sorcerers being outcasted in Port is all well and good. It's nice flavor. But there is no reasonable or logical reason why a spell being cast in public would suddenly oust them.

EO, your quote states the massive personality differences between the two prime arcane casters. It also details that sorcerers tend to draw more negative attention. But wouldn't that be due to how they act rather than being identified as a sorcerer on sight? In a land such as the Core, wouldn't hiding and practicing hiding things that are taboo be the norm for those that cross into the taboo? I'm just really struggling to understand how untrained generic civilians can tell the difference between spells that half the casting classes can cast.

[EO]

EO, your quote states the massive personality differences between the two prime arcane casters. It also details that sorcerers tend to draw more negative attention. But wouldn't that be due to how they act rather than being identified as a sorcerer on sight? In a land such as the Core, wouldn't hiding and practicing hiding things that are taboo be the norm for those that cross into the taboo? I'm just really struggling to understand how untrained generic civilians can tell the difference between spells that half the casting classes can cast.

That quote explicitly says sorcerers can't really hide who they are; that players don't play that is not our fault. That magnetism, force of personality that makes them stand out makes people feel odd around them. It generates suspicion. It's clearly stated a sorcerer wouldn't hide it for long, even moreso if they cast in public. That's why they tend to avoid societies overall and are more loners.

I'll reiterate what I said though; it's not a perfect system and I wouldn't implement that way in PnP, where I'd likely have people feel a bit off about him, make him uncomfortable from the getgo, like the first person to blame when something goes wrong because he stands out (even without casting spells), but in a PW setting, where DMs can't micromanage every player, it serves the purpose it's intended for, which is to make sorcerers have to be secretive or be in outcast roles in Port-à-Lucine.

How would generic noble be able to tell the difference between any of these classes and their methods of casting when the verbal and somatic components are the same globally? Sorcerers being outcasted in Port is all well and good. It's nice flavor. But there is no reasonable or logical reason why a spell being cast in public would suddenly oust them.

Technically there are some differences between how spells are cast. Among arcane casters, as per the PHB, every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). I don't know if our bard players go to great lengths to represent that but it's part of the core features of the class.

[FinalHeaven]

That quote explicitly says sorcerers can't really hide who they are; that players don't play that is not our fault. That magnetism, force of personality that makes them stand out makes people feel odd around them. It generates suspicion. It's clearly stated a sorcerer wouldn't hide it for long, even moreso if they cast in public. That's why they tend to avoid societies overall and are more loners.

This answers the question for me.  I think perhaps this is where the most hangup lies as players here are often told not to imply their character is "special" or in some way more than what they appear to be, else it might fall in the realm of cheesing.  This does answer why common NPCs may be suspicious, however.

[EO]

This answers the question for me.  I think perhaps this is where the most hangup lies as players here are often told not to imply their character is "special" or in some way more than what they appear to be, else it might fall in the realm of cheesing.  This does answer why common NPCs may be suspicious, however.

Indeed, the problem lies with forcing reactions upon other players and NPCs, including or emoting for them. A player can't start emoting how NPCs react around him, but ultimately Charisma is a stat, much like Strength or Dexterity. In the case of sorcerers source books say their high Charisma is related to their force of personality, that "je ne sais quoi" they have that makes them stand out. That's why in PnP I'd have NPCs reacting properly around a sorcerer but can't expect DMs to micromanage that all the time.