Author Topic: Stabilizing someone that is disguised  (Read 1619 times)

Chabxxu

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Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« on: May 11, 2020, 11:24:19 AM »
I tried to stabilize someone that was diguised today, and even if I hadn't pierced the disguise, the yellow text saying : "Attempting to stabilize person X " was actually stating the real name and not the disguised name.

Edit: same thing seems to happen when bandaging someone that's disguised!

Arawn

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2020, 12:19:09 PM »
Yeah, this was caused by a recent NWNX change. I've already identified and fixed the issue, and it should be resolved in one of the next updates.
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EO

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2020, 01:00:11 PM »
This should now be fixed.

Zera

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 12:42:55 AM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

Gods_Kill_People

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 01:11:04 AM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

I would assume this is because when your dead...there is nothing that stops the person from....well...peeking under the hood to get a real look at your face, any marks or scars....things like that...seeing the REAL you.

Hathor

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 02:44:04 AM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

I would assume this is because when your dead...there is nothing that stops the person from....well...peeking under the hood to get a real look at your face, any marks or scars....things like that...seeing the REAL you.

I feel this amounts to godmoding the actions of whoever is around the body. Surely we can allow for the players to actually emote doing such a thing and then PMing the player asking what they'd do.

Gods_Kill_People

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 03:39:44 AM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

I would assume this is because when your dead...there is nothing that stops the person from....well...peeking under the hood to get a real look at your face, any marks or scars....things like that...seeing the REAL you.

I feel this amounts to godmoding the actions of whoever is around the body. Surely we can allow for the players to actually emote doing such a thing and then PMing the player asking what they'd do.

I mean....how much fighting can a corpse put up to prevent such exactly?

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 03:50:11 AM »


This probably hasn't changed.

It'd be great if people had to investigate through chain emoting, but the Disguise skill stands in for that, just like other gameplay mechanics stand in for other things.

The actual bug here is probably that the Disguise reapplies as soon as you come back to life. That's how I read Zera's post, at least, and I agree it should be changed.
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Gods_Kill_People

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 04:07:21 AM »
This yes....like removing the hood, removing any make up, actually checking them out for things and yeah, you can PM the player and ask for things like holy symbols, visible scars, so on.

Hathor

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 03:35:36 PM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

I would assume this is because when your dead...there is nothing that stops the person from....well...peeking under the hood to get a real look at your face, any marks or scars....things like that...seeing the REAL you.

I feel this amounts to godmoding the actions of whoever is around the body. Surely we can allow for the players to actually emote doing such a thing and then PMing the player asking what they'd do.

I mean....how much fighting can a corpse put up to prevent such exactly?

None, but if a PC is wearing full face and body coverings and has never spoken and the Disguise wasn't broken before that...shouldn't PCs at least have to take some sort of action to see what's going on? One could argue that the players can ignore the meta information and pretend they saw nothing, but that defeats the point of Disguises hiding meta information in the first place. Imagine you play a disguise master who has taken the above steps to prevent being known. Their persona makes friends, never speaking and never getting caught. One day they die and suddenly everyone knows OOC, despite never having suspected a thing and never having peeked under the veil. All "active" aspects of the skill as noted by Sardine/CosmicRay are moot when a PC is dead--the active part is the voice and mannerisms, none of which can be "caught" while they are unconscious. Faked dead bodies are a thing, after all.

I understand the position of the dev team is to treat death as "game over" for disguise, but I hope it can be reconsidered for the sake of making more sense IC and for balancing the already very easily pierced disguise system.

Gods_Kill_People

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 03:45:30 PM »
Its not IC for you to want to control every aspect of your character...when your DEAD. Because your DEAD. YOU cannot stop them from stripping you naked to look at you, cause your DEAD. I'm sorry, I can understand the frustrations, but if your dead...you have no control, its the same as saying you should ALWAYS know where your body is hidden because its your body....

Hathor

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 04:06:10 PM »
Its not IC for you to want to control every aspect of your character...when your DEAD. Because your DEAD. YOU cannot stop them from stripping you naked to look at you, cause your DEAD. I'm sorry, I can understand the frustrations, but if your dead...you have no control, its the same as saying you should ALWAYS know where your body is hidden because its your body....

I don't disagree with you that you can't control whether people strip you naked.

What I disagree with is the assumption that every other PC wishes to strip dead bodies naked to have a look at whether they're disguised. It forces that choice onto every PC who sees the body, it's not IC at all. The living PCs are perfectly capable of emoting doing so and asking the player what they find, no?

Edit: I can't help but feel that my position is being misinterpreted, which is no one's fault, I hope it's a little more clear. I am arguing that such things should be possible but should be RPed out rather than meta information forced on people.

Arawn

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 04:15:26 PM »
As I have mentioned repeatedly now, physical appearance is only part of any disguise. The rest of it is posture, voice, accent, all the things that make up an individual’s personality and presentation.

I’m going to make any Disguise roll against an unconscious target a take 20.

I can’t think of (nor have I heard) any way of handling corpses that works better than the current one and does not also break other systems, so I’m going to leave it as is for now.
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Khornite

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 05:16:43 PM »
As I have mentioned repeatedly now, physical appearance is only part of any disguise. The rest of it is posture, voice, accent, all the things that make up an individual’s personality and presentation.

I’m going to make any Disguise roll against an unconscious target a take 20.

I can’t think of (nor have I heard) any way of handling corpses that works better than the current one and does not also break other systems, so I’m going to leave it as is for now.

I'm on the fence with this issue but there are a few points I want to bring up. As stated above, posture, voice, accents, mannerisms are all things that make how good a disguise is. If the voice slips, the disguise slips. If the person walks differently, the disguise slips. A corpse won't be doing any of these things that can break the disguise, so how can they be used against detecting a disguise?

How well a corpse is able to maintain a disguise comes down purely to how good the actual make up and prosthetics would be, then. Even with professional special effects artists, you can still tell that something is "off" about a disguise when you see a mask without post-production modification. You can do some pretty extreme modifications with just makeup alone by knowing how light will interact with a disguise and what shades to use to imply depth. There's no shortage of "extreme transformation" videos online of men who make themselves look like women with just some cosmetics.

With that all taken into account, you'd likely have a much easier time detecting a corpse is disguised cause it's all down to how good the makeup and mask might be. If someone has 30 ranks in disguise, it isn't ALL about how good they are with makeup, but 10 points could be makeup, another 10 could account for physical mannerisms, another 10 coming from voice manipulation.

Now, scripting it so that there is a lesser DC to detect a disguised corpse would likely be a massive pain in the neck, so the easiest solution is probably just to say that the person detects a disguise on a corpse.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 05:18:19 PM by Khornite »
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Arawn

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 06:15:18 PM »
Quote
I'm on the fence with this issue but there are a few points I want to bring up. As stated above, posture, voice, accents, mannerisms are all things that make how good a disguise is. If the voice slips, the disguise slips. If the person walks differently, the disguise slips. A corpse won't be doing any of these things that can break the disguise, so how can they be used against detecting a disguise?

Yes, that’s literally my point. They don’t come into it. It’s just whether you can identify the person visually or not. You have as much time as you need. Hence the Take 20.
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Relapse

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2020, 06:48:30 PM »
I don't really have a stake in this but I find it strange that I wouldn't be able to identify a disguise on a corpse if I was actively looking for it uncontested, given the examine is an intended action. A take 20 would mean a lot more if we didn't have the skill inflation from items, assuming disguise is going down the same path, I think it should come with negative modifiers as well. If wearing armour inhibits your ability to move silently surely being dead inhibits your ability to keep your fake beard on...  :D

Arawn

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2020, 07:10:16 PM »
I don't really have a stake in this but I find it strange that I wouldn't be able to identify a disguise on a corpse if I was actively looking for it uncontested, given the examine is an intended action. A take 20 would mean a lot more if we didn't have the skill inflation from items, assuming disguise is going down the same path, I think it should come with negative modifiers as well. If wearing armour inhibits your ability to move silently surely being dead inhibits your ability to keep your fake beard on...  :D

We'll re-evaluate and re-balance once items are in and we have some data to move forward with.
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Khornite

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2020, 07:14:48 PM »
Quote
I'm on the fence with this issue but there are a few points I want to bring up. As stated above, posture, voice, accents, mannerisms are all things that make how good a disguise is. If the voice slips, the disguise slips. If the person walks differently, the disguise slips. A corpse won't be doing any of these things that can break the disguise, so how can they be used against detecting a disguise?

Yes, that’s literally my point. They don’t come into it. It’s just whether you can identify the person visually or not. You have as much time as you need. Hence the Take 20.

And I'm agreeing with you. I even break that exact idea down later in the post.
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Hathor

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2020, 08:39:23 PM »
I don't really have a stake in this but I find it strange that I wouldn't be able to identify a disguise on a corpse if I was actively looking for it uncontested, given the examine is an intended action. A take 20 would mean a lot more if we didn't have the skill inflation from items, assuming disguise is going down the same path, I think it should come with negative modifiers as well. If wearing armour inhibits your ability to move silently surely being dead inhibits your ability to keep your fake beard on...  :D

The point is more that you don't have to actively look for it. I agree that any attempt at looking into a body's identity should be an easy win for the living.

Zera

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Re: Stabilizing someone that is disguised
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2020, 02:48:23 PM »
The corpse still says the original name, while the ghost has the disguised name... is odd... when I was brough back to life, I was in disguise... could this be fixed?

I would assume this is because when your dead...there is nothing that stops the person from....well...peeking under the hood to get a real look at your face, any marks or scars....things like that...seeing the REAL you.

I feel this amounts to godmoding the actions of whoever is around the body. Surely we can allow for the players to actually emote doing such a thing and then PMing the player asking what they'd do.

I mean....how much fighting can a corpse put up to prevent such exactly?

None, but if a PC is wearing full face and body coverings and has never spoken and the Disguise wasn't broken before that...shouldn't PCs at least have to take some sort of action to see what's going on? One could argue that the players can ignore the meta information and pretend they saw nothing, but that defeats the point of Disguises hiding meta information in the first place. Imagine you play a disguise master who has taken the above steps to prevent being known. Their persona makes friends, never speaking and never getting caught. One day they die and suddenly everyone knows OOC, despite never having suspected a thing and never having peeked under the veil. All "active" aspects of the skill as noted by Sardine/CosmicRay are moot when a PC is dead--the active part is the voice and mannerisms, none of which can be "caught" while they are unconscious. Faked dead bodies are a thing, after all.

I understand the position of the dev team is to treat death as "game over" for disguise, but I hope it can be reconsidered for the sake of making more sense IC and for balancing the already very easily pierced disguise system.

Yeah, I agree with you... sure disguise is acting, postures, etc, which a body doesn't do... we all agree on that, however, the friends around have nothing to compare with if I'm acting different... you assume disguise is always using make up... what if is just hiding my face?: "look, that corpse is acting different than the man we know and call a friend!", or,  "look, his face is exactly the face we know  it belongs to our friend!... but somehow we just discovered he is on disguise...?" doesn't make any sense at all... Disguise is also assuming another identity, let's say for instances a disguise isn't just putting make up, if your friends as happened to me, didn't know I have been on diguise all this time (months now), and ditn't meet me before I took this new personality, they have no way to compare my dead body with my "real name" or "real identity" or that I have been "acting different"... "look, that motionless body was disguised and acting like... "who is Alphonse"!?? This should deffinetely be into consideration : when you are a corpse, the identify option should get bonusses, but just when used actively... not immediately revealing your real identity, that's the issue here,  my friends never doubted that I am not who I say I am, so they never even considered to search my body to see if I'm in disguise... When they discovered my corpse they just said... "we don't see your body, there's just the body of another person here... with the same clothes and face as you?" Since my corpse is not acting, talking, etc., IIC there's no way just by seeing my body they could realize I was in disguise unless actively they were searching for that... Revealing a real corpse identity should be an active and not passive action... should just be revealed to the one who is looking for that, probably with a bonus on his spot... or yes, taking 20 it should be revealed immediately, maybe, but just if he wants to identify the body, not making it visible to everybody...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 02:53:47 PM by Zera »