Author Topic: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD  (Read 1183 times)

Marcus Weyland

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(Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« on: May 08, 2020, 12:20:28 AM »
While looking at the class spells on the forum, I noticed Rangers have Bull's Strength in PotM, but not in 3e, 3.5e, or even NWN. This on top of Ram's Might does give them a lot of strength, but I also noticed Bards don't get Bull's either, per the SRD.

Then I started looking to see what else they get in-game but not in the PnP, and it turned into a lot more effort than I'd expected:
Spoiler: show
Bull's Strength
Bull’s Strength, Mass
Bear's Endurance
Bear's Endurance, Mass
Owl's Wisdom
Owl's Wisdom, Mass
Keen Edge
Magic Weapon
Greater Magic Weapon
Mage Armor
Mass Mage Armor
Protection from Alignment
Magic Circle Against [Alignment]
Remove Disease
Sound Lance
Gust of Wind
Summon Creature I
Summon Creature II
Summon Creature III
Summon Creature IV
Summon Creature V
Summon Creature VI
Ice Storm
Amanuensis
Ironguts
Cure Minor Wounds
Find Traps
Healing Circle


I don't know what to do with this information, or if it even belongs here. It would seem Bards have a lot of things they don't have in 3.5, a lot of which have contributed to them being the melee threat they are on the server. To be totally circumspect I'd also have combed through their 3e spells, and sifted out which spells they should have as 3e, which they should have in 3.5, and which they have in both or neither. I might do that, but thought I'd see if there's a forthcoming explanation first that would make it unnecessary.

But, Rangers definitely don't have Bull's, in any source I saw. I suspect when Bear's and Owl's were added in PotM (since they're absent in base NWN), Bull's was thrown in erroneously, or with a specific justification.

Pav

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2020, 12:25:29 AM »
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 12:28:02 AM by Pav »

Chabxxu

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2020, 12:40:26 AM »
I’m not sure what it is you asking by bringing this up?
Is it as to why bards and rangers have those spells?
Or are you asking to remove those spells from bard and rangers to nerf them?
Or is it another reason?

FinalHeaven

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2020, 12:48:23 AM »
I'm slightly confused.  Is that a list of spells that you think Bards don't get in the base game?  Because they absolutely do get some of them.



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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2020, 12:51:37 AM »
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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2020, 12:52:09 AM »
I believe Mr. Weyland is bringing up a selection of spells that Bards and Rangers do not get per PnP and do get on our server. Furthermore, I think Mr. Weyland is referencing the team's stated preference of developing for parity with PnP, and therefore suggesting that those spells be removed.

Could be wrong, though.
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Marcus Weyland

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2020, 12:52:24 AM »
I’m not sure what it is you asking by bringing this up?

Well, the observation's just that Bards are more in line with 3e than anything else, whereas I'd understood we prefer 3.5e and have changed some classes to reflect that. I'm assuming bards have been looked over before, so it's more than likely this discrepancy is intentional, and all I could really ask for is the explanation or policy for it.

I'm slightly confused.  Is that a list of spells that you think Bards don't get in the base game?  Because they absolutely do get some of them.

No, they do get all(?) of those in NWN. Other classes, though, have been adjusted in various ways to reflect 3.5 mechanics rather than the 3e that NWN is based on. For instance, in base NWN, Rangers do not get Bear's Endurance or Owl's Wisdom. They do in PotM because that's what they get in D&D 3.5.

...and therefore suggesting that those spells be removed.

Not at all. I don't have any strong opinions on bards. I'm only looking for clarification on whether we're trying to keep a class in line exclusively with any edition in particular, or, if not, what the metrics are.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 01:03:16 AM by Marcus Weyland »

FinalHeaven

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2020, 01:02:57 AM »
Oh I see, fair enough.

Personally I've always taken the statements suggesting that POTM is meant to adhere to 3.5 as terms of convenience rather than codified law.  I would assume that there is intentionally a lot of wiggle room over the years of the server's development, you can see it in many different places.



Relapse

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2020, 01:09:59 AM »
These spells are inline with 3e, I think that's pretty self explanatory on its own.

Marcus Weyland

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2020, 01:25:34 AM »
These spells are inline with 3e, I think that's pretty self explanatory on its own.

They're actually not totally in line with 3e.
Some of the spells like Amanuensis, Sound Lance, and Ice Storm simply aren't in anything that I've found, for bards, 3e or no.

Iridni Ren

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2020, 01:31:37 AM »
Obviously the team will have to answer whether the gold standard is 3 or 3.5, but EO has in the past said 3.0. Perhaps that has changed with the rollout of EE.

It'd be fairly complicated to compile such a FAQ. That being said, usually we favor 3E lore over 3.5 when there's a discrepancy but that's not set in stone either.

Sorry, thought you had referred to that DandDwiki page when I first read it. d20srd is the source you want; the only problem is it's a 3.5 source, so you have to compare with the 3E version to see if NwN implemented it correctly.

Finally, the Dev who programmed many if not most of the POTM spell changes from base NWN is no longer here to explain his reasoning.

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Relapse

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2020, 01:33:53 AM »
These spells are inline with 3e, I think that's pretty self explanatory on its own.

They're actually not totally in line with 3e.
Some of the spells like Amanuensis, Sound Lance, and Ice Storm simply aren't in anything that I've found, for bards, 3e or no.

I'm referring to implementation as opposed to availability.

3e
Bull’s Strength. Subject gains 1d4+1 Str for 1 hr./level

3.5e
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.

Anyway this is all at the team's discretion, i'll let them comment.

APorg

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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2020, 02:32:15 AM »
A lot of the spell durations on PotM have been tweaked with an eye to making them less level dependent. e.g. 1 Hour + 1 Turn/level means that there's a lot less level gap between a level 3 Bull Strength and a level 20 one.

In philosophy it might be argued that PotM is a bit closer to 3e design (since you can generally cast just one or two Bull's Strengths to cover yourself until you need to rest again) for this, but that's largely based on the fact that much of the server's original balance and dungeon work has been made with longer duration buffs as their basis.  There'd be a lot of work in redesigning dungeons to fit a shorter duration buff philosophy, unfortunately.
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Re: (Bard) Spells Unsupported in the SRD
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2020, 05:15:48 AM »
As Relapse has said, 3rd Edition gives Bards Bull’s Strength along with most other zoo buffs. Iridni is largely correct in that we follow 3E generally over 3.5, when there is a choice between the two to follow for balancing purposes.

I suspect the reason they have spells like Ice Storm has to do with Vanilla NWN wanting to give them some limited offensive spell capability. In PnP, Bards get instead a host of cool illusion spells that just aren’t possible in NWN, like Nightmare and Hallucinatory Terrain. Wizards and sorcerers get these spells as well, but the spell-list Bards have to work with is (justifiably) far shorter. So what you’re left with instead is largely healing spells, support spells, a smattering of spells doing sonic damage, and spells that buff both the Bard and his allies. I see nothing wrong with this.